Heroes 5 isn't a true Heroes of Might & Magic game.

The new Heroes games produced by Ubisoft. Please specify which game you are referring to in your post.
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Pol
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Unread postby Pol » 02 Sep 2007, 16:37

Alamar wrote: In summary everything that UBI has done can be traced back to simply being a traditional business.
Yep, back in time, game was treated with special care as a company flagship. But even that's better than die.
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Unread postby Alamar » 02 Sep 2007, 16:43

Sauron wrote:No team makes "The best game possible". Every team cares primary about profit. Without profit there is no team, and without the team there is 0% chance to make the wanted game.
Obviously different developers value "building the best game possible" differently.

On one end of the spectrum you have teams that are in it ONLY for the $ and don't care about anything past profits for the next 5 years or so.

On the other end of the spectrum there are teams that are happy to delay, refine, polish, delay again, etc. and will only release a game when they are happy with the game. Their primary goal is to make a GREAT game and then hope that they are rewarded for it so they can do it again.

Now which end of the spectrum do you think that UBI is close to?

NOTE: There's nothing wrong with being a traditional business.

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Unread postby Kareeah Indaga » 02 Sep 2007, 17:06

PhoenixReborn wrote:Let me guess. You don't own Heroes V.
I do and I still think it’s horrid. The only thing really good to come out of it as far as I’m concerned is Marzhin’s LotA campaign.
Sauron wrote:And Ubisoft taking over the game is a good thing. There are developers who dreamed about turning HoMM into an RTS.
IIRC didn’t Ubival want to make it an RTS?
Omega_Destroyer wrote:Sorry Orc, but Might & Magic is very much alive whether you like it or not.
Like the Deyjan Pit it is.

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Re: Heroes 5 isn't a true Heroes of Might & Magic game.

Unread postby UndeadHalfOrc » 02 Sep 2007, 18:03

Omega_Destroyer wrote:Sorry Orc, but Might & Magic is very much alive whether you like it or not.
Well, it is very much alive when I'm replaying the CLASSIC GAMES (H2 , H3, MM6 or MM7) on my computer.

It's also very much alive when me and other people make bug fixes and balance patches to those older games. And for free.

But the SOUL of M&M is dead. The creative core is gone. Just as the SOUL of a music band dies when they lose their primary songwriter but continue making mediocre albums (In NWC/3DO's case, John Van Caneghem).

Tell me, what's the difference between some dude in his mom's basement making a Heroes clone and Ubisoft making their own clone that they can legally call Heroes 5? NONE. Ubisoft simply had the $$$ to get the legal rights to do so, and the guy in the basement didn't.

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Unread postby Ya5MieL » 02 Sep 2007, 20:51

Personally, I'm VERY satisfied with Nival Interactive, they have done a wonderfull job in keeping the heroes franchise alive.

UBI, on the other hand, wasn't so spectacular.

Keep in mind that first versions of H5 had all old heroes and was supposed to be in same old universe (nival's plan).

But ubi had to change the universe. (in long run, i can see why they would want that but there was really no need for it).
Ubi then decided they cant have the same spell names as old games (even tho spell effects and images were already done to fit the old name). This was completelly pointless decision, and while not critical, it made me realise what sort of people are in the charge. Type that says "it will be made MY way, even tho im not the one exactly making the game".

This is one of the situations when publisher has fist over production studio, one of the situations I really dont like.

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Unread postby jeff » 02 Sep 2007, 20:58

Ya5MieL wrote: Personally, I'm VERY satisfied with Nival Interactive, they have done a wonderfull job in keeping the heroes franchise alive.


8| Most of us had higher expectations.
Ya5MieL wrote:But ubi had to change the universe. (in long run, i can see why they would want that
Boy, I wish you would enlighten the rest of us, to me and others it was one of the dumbest moves they made. Alright there were a lot of dumb decisions but that one was in the top 10. :|
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Unread postby Kareeah Indaga » 02 Sep 2007, 21:52

jeff wrote:
Ya5MieL wrote: Personally, I'm VERY satisfied with Nival Interactive, they have done a wonderfull job in keeping the heroes franchise alive.


8| Most of us had higher expectations.
Second that.
jeff wrote:
Ya5MieL wrote:But ubi had to change the universe. (in long run, i can see why they would want that
Boy, I wish you would enlighten the rest of us, to me and others it was one of the dumbest moves they made. Alright there were a lot of dumb decisions but that one was in the top 10. :|
...and that.

Of course, now that I've seen what they've done in Dark Messiah, Heroes V and its expansions (well, 1/2 for TotE since we haven't seen the whole thing, just the previews) and the horrible mess they made of their own universe, I guess it's not such a bad thing they didn't get their lousy storytelling all over the old world. But as I doubt they set out to make a story that sucks, that doesn't excuse them, just makes it slightly more bearable.

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Unread postby winterfate » 02 Sep 2007, 22:11

Kareeah wrote:Of course, now that I've seen what they've done in Dark Messiah, Heroes V and its expansions (well, 1/2 for TotE since we haven't seen the whole thing, just the previews) and the horrible mess they made of their own universe, I guess it's not such a bad thing they didn't get their lousy storytelling all over the old world. But as I doubt they set out to make a story that sucks, that doesn't excuse them, just makes it slightly more bearable.
Agreed!

I can make a better story than that in 30 minutes, without brainstorming.

(The worst part is that I'm not bluffing...I wrote up a campaign storyline idea for the HOMM5 Mod Ghost of the Past, which was recieved on the mod forum with much praise. Some even said that my story was better than Nival's. :proud:. You can also read it in the mod subforum in the Round Table. Feedback is welcome.)

*The part in parenthesis has been a shameless promotion for winterfate, by winterfate. All Rights Reserved 2007.*

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Unread postby ThunderTitan » 02 Sep 2007, 22:15

5 years?! Pls, most games sell for 1 or 2 at the most unless you have 2-3 expansions. After that most sales are incidental or whatever they're called in english.


Sauron wrote:No team makes "The best game possible".
*chough*SC2*chough*

But i guess that's why Blizz games sell around 3 million and others are a great success if they sell 300.000. That and actually supporting the game for 10 years.

As for alts... they shall be here so they can be mentioned.
They're also a H4 feature adapted to the upgrade feature.
Thats the reason why I didn't mention Trainer, Dark elven magic and Aveneger.
The skills I mentioned are more complex and can be called features.
No, not really. But But lets agree to disagree.
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Unread postby Ya5MieL » 02 Sep 2007, 22:41

jeff wrote:
Ya5MieL wrote: Personally, I'm VERY satisfied with Nival Interactive, they have done a wonderfull job in keeping the heroes franchise alive.


8| Most of us had higher expectations.
Ya5MieL wrote:But ubi had to change the universe. (in long run, i can see why they would want that
Boy, I wish you would enlighten the rest of us, to me and others it was one of the dumbest moves they made. Alright there were a lot of dumb decisions but that one was in the top 10. :|
Well, its just an opinion, they(Nival) full filled my expectations, especially with ToE features to come. I played every game since king's bounty and i feel i have right to say my opinion about the series. When all is sumed up, h5 is looking at top spot in heroes game ranking.
About universe, it could have been another continent, another world, but a game like heroes simply requires new beginning, and reshuffling of creatures to stay interesting.
If the story was decent, new universe wouldn't matter at all.
Problem is, story sucked.

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Unread postby UndeadHalfOrc » 02 Sep 2007, 22:41

Hey ThunderTitan, you seem to be quite the Blizzard fan. I played tons of SC2 back in the day, and still play lots of Warcraft 3 online.

Have you ever noticed how many things from Warcraft 3 seems to be lifted straight from Heroes 2 and Heroes 3 ?

Most obvious being
WC3 Creeping for exp and items = H3 Wandering monsters guarding artifacts

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Unread postby ThunderTitan » 03 Sep 2007, 00:15

Hmmm, i wonder if they could have inspired themselves from a similar source..... :rolleyes:

Check out Warhammer, D&D and a many other roleplaying games. I'm sure you'll find something.
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Unread postby Kristo » 03 Sep 2007, 06:33

I disagree. Heroes 5 is indeed a true HOMM game because it has all the necessary features:

1. It says "Heroes of Might and Magic" on the box.
2. You build structures within your towns.
3. You hire heroes who lead armies and cast spells.
4. It's turn-based on both the adventure and combat scales.
5. Whatever I left out that I'm sure someone else will think of. ;)

All that, however, doesn't necessarily make it fun. I helped beta test Heroes 5. I played the demo. At no point was I convinced they've made a fun game. I'm still not convinced. So I haven't bought it. The base Heroes 4 was the last HOMM game I bought because it said HOMM on the box. I won't be making that mistake again.

That said, I refuse to write off the whole series because of one game. Ubival has a lot more work to do in a future game in order to get my business, but it is possible. I'm patiently waiting to see what, if anything, Heroes 6 brings. Until then, I'll be here playing Heroes 2. :D

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Unread postby Grumpy Old Wizard » 03 Sep 2007, 09:22

HOMM5 is a turn based tactical strategy game set in a fantasy setting. It has heroes, rpg elements, resource mangement, building strategies.

I think it is a worthy game and is very much a Heroes of Might and Magic game. Are there some things I would have prefered to have been done diferently? Yes. I would have liked a larger battle field, and faction specific magic for instatnce.

I think Nival made a mistake in making the editor require LUA scripting knowledge instead of drop down menues. But if anyone wants to learn how to script that can find plenty of examples in the Mapmaking forum and can get their questions answered there. Plus there are a number of user made maps that use scripting that can be looked at for examples.

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Unread postby jeff » 03 Sep 2007, 14:28

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote: I think Nival made a mistake in making the editor require LUA scripting knowledge instead of drop down menues. But if anyone wants to learn how to script that can find plenty of examples in the Mapmaking forum and can get their questions answered there. Plus there are a number of user made maps that use scripting that can be looked at for examples.GOW
This is the biggest bur under my saddle, the fact there is a lot of help in the forums does not minimize the difficulty using this editor. My thread in the mapmaking guild lists most of my complaints. Their decisions made with this editor alienated fans and excluded a lot of their fan-base from being involved. People that make these type of decision need to be found and a stake driven through their heart just to make sure they make no more such decisions, preferably before they breed and pass their genes on to the next generation. :mad:
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Unread postby ThunderTitan » 03 Sep 2007, 16:03

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote:HOMM5 is a turn based tactical strategy game set in a fantasy setting. It has heroes, rpg elements, resource mangement, building strategies.
and it's lucky that there aren't many TBS's around like it...
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Unread postby Jolly Joker » 03 Sep 2007, 17:14

I'm really trying, but I have problems to see the purpose of this thread.

To answer the original poster, if AC/DC sold their name it was THEIR fault to sell it, not Kiss's fault to buy it and make records under their name.
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Unread postby ThunderTitan » 03 Sep 2007, 17:18

Sure, that's why only the seller of illegal wares is at fault.


I'm really trying, but I have problems to see the purpose of this thread.
Are you trying to provoke people?!
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Unread postby UndeadHalfOrc » 03 Sep 2007, 18:08

jeff wrote: People that make these type of decision need to be found and a stake driven through their heart just to make sure they make no more such decisions, preferably before they breed and pass their genes on to the next generation. :mad:
I like your way of thinking, jeff. B-)

I would not however restrict myself to only bad videogame design.

What about the quality of leadership of those in charge of most powerful nation on earth?

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Unread postby UndeadHalfOrc » 03 Sep 2007, 18:14

Jolly Joker wrote: To answer the original poster, if AC/DC sold their name it was THEIR fault to sell it, not Kiss's fault to buy it and make records under their name.
That was only a hypothetical situation to make an analogy.
(BTW KISS never stated they wanted to buy names, they states they toyed with the idea of letting younger guys play under the KISS name while staying home and raking all the money)

Whose fault it is irrelevant. The point I was trying to make is that it would NOT be AC/DC anymore and 99.999% fans would agree.

Sure, it's not Ubisoft's fault that NWC/3DO went under.
What I mean is that without the original creative mind(s), it's just not the same.
Jon Van Caneghem started all this from the ground up.


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