Heroic only with Freny, PM, or Phantom forces?

The new Heroes games produced by Ubisoft. Please specify which game you are referring to in your post.
xoham
Leprechaun
Leprechaun
Posts: 9
Joined: 22 Jul 2007

Heroic only with Freny, PM, or Phantom forces?

Unread postby xoham » 18 Aug 2007, 18:59

I'm finding that in each Heroic mission, I'm now doing the second Warlock mission, that the other side always has a bigger army, and cannot be beaten unless I have some sort of crowd control spell (frenzy, puppet master), or Phantom forces to double one of my stacks.

Is this the case through the whole campaign? I'd hate to have to restart each campaign just to get the right spells. I might as well use the cheat codes to force it.

User avatar
Elvin
Round Table Hero
Round Table Hero
Posts: 5475
Joined: 27 Aug 2006

Unread postby Elvin » 18 Aug 2007, 19:14

Ehm expert destructive, enlightenment(maybe sorcery) and warlock's luck don't work? I'd try to buy artifacts from a town so as to boost my power, I don't think dark is really needed. As a coincidence I recently reached the 2nd mission myself so I'll soon try it.

As a second suggestion I'd say to play fast. The more you let them build up the worst it is.
I, for one, am dying to find out what colour they paint Michael's toenails.
- Metathron

User avatar
PhoenixReborn
Round Table Hero
Round Table Hero
Posts: 2014
Joined: 24 May 2006
Location: US

Unread postby PhoenixReborn » 19 Aug 2007, 02:02

Elvin wrote:Ehm expert destructive, enlightenment(maybe sorcery) and warlock's luck don't work?

As a second suggestion I'd say to play fast. The more you let them build up the worst it is.
That was my build and strategy and it breezed me through much easier than the first time I did it, but I'm not playing on heroic.

Now I'm *** stuck on c5m2 of course.

User avatar
Elvin
Round Table Hero
Round Table Hero
Posts: 5475
Joined: 27 Aug 2006

Unread postby Elvin » 19 Aug 2007, 05:04

Ah yes I remember that accursed mission...It was hell to pass that on heroic, I think the last academy town has the grail because its garrison's army grows insanely fast.
I, for one, am dying to find out what colour they paint Michael's toenails.
- Metathron

User avatar
PhoenixReborn
Round Table Hero
Round Table Hero
Posts: 2014
Joined: 24 May 2006
Location: US

Unread postby PhoenixReborn » 20 Aug 2007, 03:43

Elvin wrote:Ah yes I remember that accursed mission...It was hell to pass that on heroic, I think the last academy town has the grail because its garrison's army grows insanely fast.
You are right, that one's no fair. I actually have never beaten it, I didn't finish the Academy campaign. I figure I have to build up all 3 necro castles? That's actually campaign 6 mission 2.

User avatar
wimfrits
Round Table Knight
Round Table Knight
Posts: 2047
Joined: 06 Jan 2006
Location: Utrecht, the Netherlands

Unread postby wimfrits » 20 Aug 2007, 06:14

A destructive magic path still works on champion level, though it is ofcourse less effective than control spells.
Are you suggesting coconuts migrate?

User avatar
Grail Quest
Scout
Scout
Posts: 181
Joined: 13 Jun 2007

Re: Heroic only with Freny, PM, or Phantom forces?

Unread postby Grail Quest » 20 Aug 2007, 14:36

xoham wrote:I'm finding that in each Heroic mission, I'm now doing the second Warlock mission, that the other side always has a bigger army, and cannot be beaten unless I have some sort of crowd control spell (frenzy, puppet master), or Phantom forces to double one of my stacks.

Is this the case through the whole campaign? I'd hate to have to restart each campaign just to get the right spells. I might as well use the cheat codes to force it.
This sort of thing was why I got bored very quickly with HOMM3:SOD, and am now bored with HOMM5 (I've finished as far as Warlock Mission 1).
I can win, but I need specific skills and spells. It doesn't seem to matter much how well I do during the rest of the map.

For example, in the final Necromancer map, my army was maybe 1/6th of that of the boss. This after the scripts make it chancy that no matter what you do, you might get attacked by some really big armies in the first or second week. Once you reach the final map, sheer bad luck might mean that you never got to develop your magic skills properly and you'd still get wiped. I mean: 61 angels (!) on top of everything else.

And in the first Warlock campaign, if bad luck hits and you're attacked in the first round by one of the two big warlock competitors, you're more or less finished no matter how well you amassed troops in the 29 days you were given. Not to mention if you got randomly generated a lot of shooters or fast ground units in the neutral stacks, which meant you were haemorraging troops faster than you could grow them unless you left a lot of the stacks alone.

It's coming down to luck and/or specific builds, and I had enough of that in SOD.

loran16
Peasant
Peasant
Posts: 72
Joined: 12 Aug 2006

Re: Heroic only with Freny, PM, or Phantom forces?

Unread postby loran16 » 20 Aug 2007, 16:39

Grail Quest wrote:
xoham wrote:I'm finding that in each Heroic mission, I'm now doing the second Warlock mission, that the other side always has a bigger army, and cannot be beaten unless I have some sort of crowd control spell (frenzy, puppet master), or Phantom forces to double one of my stacks.

Is this the case through the whole campaign? I'd hate to have to restart each campaign just to get the right spells. I might as well use the cheat codes to force it.
This sort of thing was why I got bored very quickly with HOMM3:SOD, and am now bored with HOMM5 (I've finished as far as Warlock Mission 1).
I can win, but I need specific skills and spells. It doesn't seem to matter much how well I do during the rest of the map.

For example, in the final Necromancer map, my army was maybe 1/6th of that of the boss. This after the scripts make it chancy that no matter what you do, you might get attacked by some really big armies in the first or second week. Once you reach the final map, sheer bad luck might mean that you never got to develop your magic skills properly and you'd still get wiped. I mean: 61 angels (!) on top of everything else.

And in the first Warlock campaign, if bad luck hits and you're attacked in the first round by one of the two big warlock competitors, you're more or less finished no matter how well you amassed troops in the 29 days you were given. Not to mention if you got randomly generated a lot of shooters or fast ground units in the neutral stacks, which meant you were haemorraging troops faster than you could grow them unless you left a lot of the stacks alone.

It's coming down to luck and/or specific builds, and I had enough of that in SOD.
Well, i gotta disagree with you.

On Warlock Mission #1, the trick is to move your hero as far away from the other guys, so they'll take on the others first. You then can kill the remaining decimated heroes pretty easily.

On Wizard 2. Yeah, you gotta take all 3 necro castles, and you need to use all 3 necro castles to take out the wizard one. It doesnt have the grail iirc. Still, its not THAT difficult, it just requires a little patience.

On Necro 5,- I really had little issues with this mission, but yeah it can be build dependant. It depends on a. if you built up godric (my only true complaint about the game...you should not be tricked into building up a boss to incredible levels), and b. if you didnt build up markal silly-wise. It's the third campaign, so you should know mostly how to build up your hero by now.

Obviously expert dark is strong for markal, and summoning is strongly suggested for raise dead. With those 2, and the magics that come with them, you can handle a bit of disadvantage in troop strength. You can't wait for godric, you have to rush him as soon as possible, with the wraiths you pick up being your main force. Still, with mark of the necro to replenish mana, and knowing that you'll have to deal with a haven army after you kill the last wizard forces, it shouldnt' be too difficult to resurrect your whole army with like 1 wizard stack left, kill it, then use dark magic et al to finish the battle.

Yeah, yeah, if you built markal with no magic you might be screwed, but why on earth would you do that? It makes no sense!

Seriously , if you've quit on HMM -V for those reasons, its just plain silly. Maybe you're starting off on heroic your first time through, which might be too much for you if you aren't used to how to play each faction yet. But if thats the case, play it on normal. I mean, c'mon people.

--------------------

To the OP, With warlocks in that campain, you need to go heavy destructive. But considering the warlock is the destructive magic specialist, its hard to believe you wouldnt figure out to go with that route. Yeah, you'll be outnumbered the whole campaign, but its not that hard since your hero is a walking magic machine, and his units are essentially just meat shields for you to get off spells with.

User avatar
Grail Quest
Scout
Scout
Posts: 181
Joined: 13 Jun 2007

Re: Heroic only with Freny, PM, or Phantom forces?

Unread postby Grail Quest » 20 Aug 2007, 20:22

loran16 wrote:On Warlock Mission #1, the trick is to move your hero as far away from the other guys, so they'll take on the others first. You then can kill the remaining decimated heroes pretty easily.

On Necro 5,- I really had little issues with this mission, but yeah it can be build dependant. It depends on a. if you built up godric (my only true complaint about the game...you should not be tricked into building up a boss to incredible levels), and b. if you didnt build up markal silly-wise. It's the third campaign, so you should know mostly how to build up your hero by now.

Yeah, yeah, if you built markal with no magic you might be screwed, but why on earth would you do that? It makes no sense!
Er... How is this disagreeing with me, exactly?

Haven't done the Wizard campaign, so I can't comment.

Warlock 1: You think I haven't thought of that? Just one look at the two leaders in the competition and I did that immediately. On my first run, one of the big ones always came for me immediately and afterwards I'm left with a bunch of assassins and a handful of other units. I can take the little guys, but not a second big stack.
On my second run, something like 3 or 4 of them came for me, including both of the heavy hitters. Yes, I moved as far away as possible. Didn't help. Your "trick", which some may or may not agree with using in the first place, is still chancy.

Necro 5: No joke -- On one run through the campaign, I went into the final fight with only Basic Dark Magic and a bit of Sorcery. Plain bad luck meant I wasn't offered any other magic during my level ups.
Even if you did develop Markal properly, if you were unlucky enough not to get Mark of the Necromancer, it was probably hopeless no matter what. It's easier now that it's one of the core Necromancer skills, of course.

On being "tricked into building up a boss to incredible levels" -- looking ahead to know you will fight Godric is cheating. Though it's already stupid enough on their part to reset his level to 10 without resetting his stats.
Even if you looked ahead and left him at level 10, with 61 archangels (and other people report even more) and a WalMart full of other units, it makes very little difference if he were level 1.

loran16
Peasant
Peasant
Posts: 72
Joined: 12 Aug 2006

Re: Heroic only with Freny, PM, or Phantom forces?

Unread postby loran16 » 20 Aug 2007, 22:27

Grail Quest wrote:
loran16 wrote:On Warlock Mission #1, the trick is to move your hero as far away from the other guys, so they'll take on the others first. You then can kill the remaining decimated heroes pretty easily.

On Necro 5,- I really had little issues with this mission, but yeah it can be build dependant. It depends on a. if you built up godric (my only true complaint about the game...you should not be tricked into building up a boss to incredible levels), and b. if you didnt build up markal silly-wise. It's the third campaign, so you should know mostly how to build up your hero by now.

Yeah, yeah, if you built markal with no magic you might be screwed, but why on earth would you do that? It makes no sense!
Er... How is this disagreeing with me, exactly?

Haven't done the Wizard campaign, so I can't comment.

Warlock 1: You think I haven't thought of that? Just one look at the two leaders in the competition and I did that immediately. On my first run, one of the big ones always came for me immediately and afterwards I'm left with a bunch of assassins and a handful of other units. I can take the little guys, but not a second big stack.
On my second run, something like 3 or 4 of them came for me, including both of the heavy hitters. Yes, I moved as far away as possible. Didn't help. Your "trick", which some may or may not agree with using in the first place, is still chancy.

Necro 5: No joke -- On one run through the campaign, I went into the final fight with only Basic Dark Magic and a bit of Sorcery. Plain bad luck meant I wasn't offered any other magic during my level ups.
Even if you did develop Markal properly, if you were unlucky enough not to get Mark of the Necromancer, it was probably hopeless no matter what. It's easier now that it's one of the core Necromancer skills, of course.

On being "tricked into building up a boss to incredible levels" -- looking ahead to know you will fight Godric is cheating. Though it's already stupid enough on their part to reset his level to 10 without resetting his stats.
Even if you looked ahead and left him at level 10, with 61 archangels (and other people report even more) and a WalMart full of other units, it makes very little difference if he were level 1.
I agree with you on tricking you into building up a boss is an ass move. We dont disagree with you there.

As for the warlock campaign, ive been through it twice the 1st mission, and never had an issue with the others attacking me on-masse. Now mind you, i think the mission setup is silly that its setup that way (it would make sense if you just had an 8 player FFA for that first mission really).

On Necro 5-first of all, mark of the necro is now a class-skill, lso thats less of an issue. And ive never not been offered dark with a necro for that long. Spellcasting, especially dark, which is amazingly powerful, is ALWAYS a priority, and always has been in homam games (certainly with the necro). I have a hard time believiing it was never offered.

And as for 61 archangels, if you rush him you face less forces iirc, but its doable. Tough, but doable.

User avatar
Grail Quest
Scout
Scout
Posts: 181
Joined: 13 Jun 2007

Re: Heroic only with Freny, PM, or Phantom forces?

Unread postby Grail Quest » 20 Aug 2007, 23:51

loran16 wrote:And as for 61 archangels, if you rush him you face less forces iirc, but its doable. Tough, but doable.
Yeah, on the walkthrough, people talk about rushes giving them less Haven reinforcements to fight. But that's just another issue. Just like in SOD, you had to rush almost all the time, only sometimes, a "rush" means a beeline blitz to the end, which, IMO, generally is just another type of cheating as:
(a) on maps in general, you don't always know where the "end" location is unless you looked at a walkthrough or tried the map before; you certainly don't know how the AI is doing until you encounter them
(b) you don't immediately know that you can rush to the final fight; in that mission, you certainly don't know you will get angel wings, and if you really wanted to rush, you'd have gone for one of the shipyards and taken to sea, relying on your previous knowledge of the map layout, where Hikm was sea-accessible
(c) you certainly don't know you "have" to rush, as Godric's Haven reinforcements are (meant to be?) a surprise. No, he does not simply take Isabel's troops, and there is no clear feedback that his troops will be simply reinforced by defections from Isabel even if that were the case.

And doable? Yes, of course. But look at how: That fight largely relies on a flawed AI strategy of turtling in a siege, even when hit with Frenzy or Puppet Master. Since when was it supposed to be _easier_ to fight a superior force holed up in a castle??
(I think the siege map needs to be bigger, and/or a castle defender should have the option of placing troops outside castle walls).

*

In defense of the mapmakers, however, it must be conceded that in any "point system" style development, where you mix and match abilities, it is generally impossible to account for certain builds, especially specialization builds.
Further, heuristics are necessarily limited in breadth and depth, so after a while, once you figure out AI behaviour, it'll seem stupid. It always does because programmers can only account for a finite number of contingencies.

All I am saying is that at this point, I feel that I am no longer rewarded for playing well. It feels like playing well doesn't mean anything. It often feels like I have to play a certain way, and that one way only is absolutely necessary.

User avatar
Grail Quest
Scout
Scout
Posts: 181
Joined: 13 Jun 2007

Re: Heroic only with Freny, PM, or Phantom forces?

Unread postby Grail Quest » 20 Aug 2007, 23:56

loran16 wrote: Seriously , if you've quit on HMM -V for those reasons, its just plain silly. Maybe you're starting off on heroic your first time through, which might be too much for you if you aren't used to how to play each faction yet. But if thats the case, play it on normal. I mean, c'mon people.
Actually, my experience of the game so far is that Heroic isn't excessively different from Normal.

User avatar
PhoenixReborn
Round Table Hero
Round Table Hero
Posts: 2014
Joined: 24 May 2006
Location: US

Re: Heroic only with Freny, PM, or Phantom forces?

Unread postby PhoenixReborn » 20 Aug 2007, 23:59

Grail Quest wrote: Actually, my experience of the game so far is that Heroic isn't excessively different from Normal.
Probably it is as you say in the campaigns. If your talking about on a skirmish map I would disagree.

loran16
Peasant
Peasant
Posts: 72
Joined: 12 Aug 2006

Re: Heroic only with Freny, PM, or Phantom forces?

Unread postby loran16 » 21 Aug 2007, 01:45

Grail Quest wrote:
loran16 wrote: Seriously , if you've quit on HMM -V for those reasons, its just plain silly. Maybe you're starting off on heroic your first time through, which might be too much for you if you aren't used to how to play each faction yet. But if thats the case, play it on normal. I mean, c'mon people.
Actually, my experience of the game so far is that Heroic isn't excessively different from Normal.
In campaigns as well there's a key resource difference, and enemy heroes AI is smarter (casts Level IV and Level V spells). Also, bigger stacks.

Shouldnt make too much of a difference in the godric mission, but still, i maintain that shouldnt be that big of an issue.

User avatar
godlyatheist
Leprechaun
Leprechaun
Posts: 46
Joined: 14 Nov 2006

Unread postby godlyatheist » 20 Sep 2007, 04:04

well, the easiest way to win the warlock campaign is to restart many times during the first mission so you can get light magic. This way you can use insane resurrect + super powerful dmg spell to blast your way through. Some people might say it's cheap, but it certainly works.

Why control the crowd when you can destroy it? Just meteor shower + implosion can win you the game.


Return to “Heroes V-VI”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 44 guests