Is HoMMV might heavy?

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Bedivere
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Is HoMMV might heavy?

Unread postby Bedivere » 09 Aug 2007, 20:02

Certainly gone are the days of HoMM2 and 3, when even late in the game a single Chain Lightning or Meteor Shower from a high level hero could devastate an opposing army (not to mention the whole Armagedon/Armegedon-proof unit combination); or when mass Bless, Haste, Prayer, or Slow would decide the battle; or when the mobility gained from Dimension Door and Town Portal would spell certain doom if an oponent got them before you. But it seems to me that magic in HoMMV, especially direct damage spells, is somewhat underpowered.

Granted, I'm relatively new to the game, and I've played mostly might-leaning Heroes and campaigns (Haven, Inferno, Necro), but it seem that often my hero could be doing something more useful than casting spells - attacking if nothing else - and the spell I do cast don't have the battle deciding qualities of previous games. It is the troops I have that are the deciding factor in any battle, and magic, my own or my opponents, simply augments the troops, perhaps minimizing loss, or deciding evenly matched battles, but can't really substitute for strong army. Is this the general perception, or have I just not played a properly developed spell caster yet?

(I'm not saying this is a bad thing - it's just different than previous games, where heroes could specialize in might or magic, and these two focuses were relatively well balanced. Or, again, maybe I just haven't seen what magic can do yet...)

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Unread postby Corribus » 09 Aug 2007, 20:31

Definitely not might heavy, but direct-damage spells aren't what they used to be, unless you are a dark elf.
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Unread postby Grumpy Old Wizard » 09 Aug 2007, 21:14

Unfortunately the heroes and the magic schools are not balanced. The strongest is dark magic and the weakest is summoning. However, there are decent spells in all schools.

In general the mass spells are stronger (and quicker to cast) than single spells. Might heroes can cast these amazingly powerful spells just as well as a dedicated mage.

This makes the might factions overly powerful. A knight can cast mass speed and destroy a magic heroe's army before the magician has a chance to recover.

And sometimes you just get screwed over on the spell selections in your guild.

Don't give up with magic though. Reload battles and replay them using different spells and you'll better learn what spells are most effective in different situations.

Related to the problem with might is that so many units can cross the battlefield in a single turn.

GOW
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Gandalf: "So do all who live to see such times but that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us."

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Unread postby Bedivere » 09 Aug 2007, 21:36

GOW
Yes – you touched on several of the things I’ve noticed.
• Might-focused heroes being able to cast mass spells as easily as magic heroes
• Weak summoning spells (one phoenix?), probably in reaction to the overpowered summoning of HoMMIV
• Smaller number of spells in guild (due to overall smaller number of spells)
• Unbalanced schools
• Many troops engaging 1st round leaves less time to cast spells to buff troops or weaken enemies
• The most effective use of magic is to increase the power of your units (or decrease the power of enemy units) rather than independently summon, destroy, immobilize, delay, or restore units. In other words, to uses magic to its fullest in HoMMV, you must have a good army to use it on.

In heroes 1-3, you could focus and subsequently build along might paths (dwellings and troops) or magic (spend your money and time on mages guild). Early to mid game a magic hero might have a significantly less powerful army than the might hero, and be less effective with it due to skills, but his magic could often compensate. In Heroes 4, a single magic hero could take out large armies personally (of course, heroes were generally over-powered in 4). It seems now that all heroes need to follow a magic-augmented might path – primarily concentrating on army building, and using magic to enhance your army’s performance.

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Re: Is HoMMV might heavy?

Unread postby loran16 » 09 Aug 2007, 22:12

Bedivere wrote:Certainly gone are the days of HoMM2 and 3, when even late in the game a single Chain Lightning or Meteor Shower from a high level hero could devastate an opposing army (not to mention the whole Armagedon/Armegedon-proof unit combination); or when mass Bless, Haste, Prayer, or Slow would decide the battle; or when the mobility gained from Dimension Door and Town Portal would spell certain doom if an oponent got them before you. But it seems to me that magic in HoMMV, especially direct damage spells, is somewhat underpowered.

Granted, I'm relatively new to the game, and I've played mostly might-leaning Heroes and campaigns (Haven, Inferno, Necro), but it seem that often my hero could be doing something more useful than casting spells - attacking if nothing else - and the spell I do cast don't have the battle deciding qualities of previous games. It is the troops I have that are the deciding factor in any battle, and magic, my own or my opponents, simply augments the troops, perhaps minimizing loss, or deciding evenly matched battles, but can't really substitute for strong army. Is this the general perception, or have I just not played a properly developed spell caster yet?

(I'm not saying this is a bad thing - it's just different than previous games, where heroes could specialize in might or magic, and these two focuses were relatively well balanced. Or, again, maybe I just haven't seen what magic can do yet...)
You're not even through the warlock campaign yet.......dark elves are really powerful at destructive magic, and essentially your army is just a meat shield.

Also, ONE phoenix is far better than you think, as the phoenix's power increases with your spell power. Its not unusaula to see a caster with a phoenix with 1000+HPs, 100 ATK and DEF, and doing like 150-300 Damage. Not to mention super fast and rebirth. One phoenix is powerful.

EDIT-Of note, is that there are two types of heroes who rely on magic, warlocks and wizards. Warlocks are really powerful if they can survive early game at destructive magic (In the campaiagn, raelag becomes insane with meteor shower), whereas wizards are best used as spellcasters with multiple magic options available (Say, light summoning and dark for example, is a common type, ).

Of note is the fortress dwarves of the expansion, which can via ignite create some really powerful fireballs and such, and can augment their units with rune magic as well.

I wouldnt quite say might is overpowered, though i do think its silly how easy it is to get a haven hero with expert light , expert dark, mass haste and mass slow. I mean, yeah they're the favored magics of the faction, but youd expect the hero not to get em both as frequently.

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Unread postby PhoenixReborn » 09 Aug 2007, 23:18

Very interesting spell thread:

http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=23272

Anyway, right now I believe that Light Magic is the strongest school...and that summoning is often better than destructive, early and late. You know unless your the wizard or warlock.

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Unread postby Mirez » 10 Aug 2007, 11:30

all fights in the warlock campaign were zo eazy, I din't really need an army

most fights were: empowered meteor shower, empowered implosion on whatever's left...
treants are dendrosexual 0_o

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Unread postby PhoenixReborn » 10 Aug 2007, 16:02

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote:
In general the mass spells are stronger (and quicker to cast) than single spells.

This makes the might factions overly powerful. A knight can cast mass speed and destroy a magic heroe's army before the magician has a chance to recover.

And sometimes you just get screwed over on the spell selections in your guild.

GOW
I've given it some more thought.

The first point is very good, why does a mass spell which has greater effect cost less initiative than even a single spell with expert sorcery? Something is wrong there.

The second point I'm less keen on, the magic factions, necro, dungeon, and academy all have a much much easier time creeping faster than the might factions (all others) who are very weak in the first week. This can add up to a huge advantage...especially with things like enlightenment giving a hero boost (easy to get for magic factions).

There are so few spells that it's very tough to get screwed over on spells.

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Unread postby loran16 » 10 Aug 2007, 16:58

PhoenixReborn wrote:
Grumpy Old Wizard wrote:
In general the mass spells are stronger (and quicker to cast) than single spells.

This makes the might factions overly powerful. A knight can cast mass speed and destroy a magic heroe's army before the magician has a chance to recover.

And sometimes you just get screwed over on the spell selections in your guild.

GOW
I've given it some more thought.

The first point is very good, why does a mass spell which has greater effect cost less initiative than even a single spell with expert sorcery? Something is wrong there.

The second point I'm less keen on, the magic factions, necro, dungeon, and academy all have a much much easier time creeping faster than the might factions (all others) who are very weak in the first week. This can add up to a huge advantage...especially with things like enlightenment giving a hero boost (easy to get for magic factions).

There are so few spells that it's very tough to get screwed over on spells.
Here's a question, with say master of wrath , does the normal haste spell get the initiative boost as well, or just the mass haste. Cuz mass haste would be silly.

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Unread postby PhoenixReborn » 10 Aug 2007, 18:13

loran16 wrote: Here's a question, with say master of wrath , does the normal haste spell get the initiative boost as well, or just the mass haste. Cuz mass haste would be silly.
You can test this yourself...casting a normal haste spell on one creature probably means you won't be able to see you hero again on the initiative bar because it takes a full 'hero turn'.

If you cast mass haste it only takes half initiative (a half hero turn) and your hero will pop in somewhere visible on the initiative bar...usually.

So yes, it is "silly".

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Unread postby Grumpy Old Wizard » 10 Aug 2007, 18:16

PhoenixReborn wrote: The second point I'm less keen on, the magic factions, necro, dungeon, and academy all have a much much easier time creeping faster than the might factions (all others) who are very weak in the first week. This can add up to a huge advantage...especially with things like enlightenment giving a hero boost (easy to get for magic factions).

There are so few spells that it's very tough to get screwed over on spells.
Some magic schools are hard to get screwed over on if your guild specializes in the school. Summoning is the easiest to get shafted on.

For example, dark magic has mass versions of all of the level 1-3 spells are most are very powerful. Level 4 spells are blind and frenzy. Level 5 is Pupet Master and Curse of the Netherworld, which is the only "bad" spell in the dark magic school. Thus if your guild specializes in dark magic and you take dark magic as a skill you are pretty much guaranteed to get powerful spells.

Dark magic is IMHO the strongest school with all its wonderful curses and controlling spells. Mass slow is an early godly spell and remains godly throughout the game.

Destruction is similar. If you specialize in destruction (aka warlock) your guild will give you decent spells. Armageddon is the only difficult spell to use there. There are special abilities for ice/fire/lightning that can all be useful too. Some of the spells are area effect.

In addition, various artifacts increase the effects of destruction spells of certain types.

Light Magic has mass versions of all level 1-3 spells. Level 4 has Magic Immunity and teleportation. Level 5 has resurrection and Word of Light (the bad spell.)

Summoning is the least powerful and has no mass spells and is light on area effect spells (fire trap and firewall.)
Level1:
--Fist of wrath is very weak. It is not going to help you creep right off the bat.
--Fire Trap. Since they changed the spell to let you select the area where the traps appear, it is very useful once you get it to expert.

Level2:
--Raise Dead is godly for necros. Minimally useful for others (especially with low spell power or creatures that can't be raised.)
--Wasp Swarm is good once you get it to expert, especially for wizards for use with MOTW.

Level 3:
--Earthquake won't help you creep
--Phantom Forces. Good, but was nerfed too much.

Level 4:
--Firewall is ok now that you can cast it on stacks but could be better.
--Summon Elementals is the most useless level 4 spell in the game. The creatures are too slow at acting and not powerful enough (can't stack them anymore.)

Level 5:
--Summon Phoenix is good early but easily destroyed as the game progresses. Banish can destroy it outright as can Harm Touch.
--Arcane Armor. Situationally useful. It is usually better to try to do damage to or incapacitate the enemy. No creeping value here.

It is very possible to get a poor selection of spells as a summoner. An early poor selection in the guild can greatly hurt your creeping ability. I would like to see the summoning school beefed up a little.

Unfortunately the TOTE summoning spells are not going to be good for the school unless they are changed from the information that we have so far. Maybe they will be rebalanced before it comes out.

Rune Magic is in addition to regular magic for the dwarves and has some pretty powerful spells so Rune Mages should always be in good shape magic wise.

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Unread postby nevermindspy » 10 Aug 2007, 18:55

Summoning is the least powerful and has no mass spells and is light on area effect spells (fire trap and firewall.)

:) I suggest you keep trying to use summoning since you are 180 degrees wrong here, not Only its not least powerful , Its THE most powerfull :)

Besides i never understood why people put such high regard for mage guilds , on any descent map you can get the right spells you want from a utopia or a Vault of mages.

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Unread postby Corribus » 10 Aug 2007, 19:20

@GOW

Raise Dead has saved my ass many times in a close battle. I'll agree that Summon Elementals is next to useless. It would be much better if the creatures were summoned with high initiative.
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Unread postby Grumpy Old Wizard » 11 Aug 2007, 01:31

nevermindspy wrote:
Summoning is the least powerful and has no mass spells and is light on area effect spells (fire trap and firewall.)

:) I suggest you keep trying to use summoning since you are 180 degrees wrong here, not Only its not least powerful , Its THE most powerfull :)
Actually, I think I am pretty good at summoning. :)

Perhaps you would care to post your analysis as to why you think summoning is the best school and how its spells beat out such spells as mass slow, mass confusion, puppet master, beserk, blind, mass haste, resurrect, implosion, meteor shower, ect.

GOW
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Unread postby Bedivere » 11 Aug 2007, 04:48

nevermindspy wrote:
:) I suggest you keep trying to use summoning since you are 180 degrees wrong here, not Only its not least powerful , Its THE most powerfull :)
Why do you say this? So far, from what I've seen and from what many people have said, summoning is relatively weak.

For the spells that actually summon aid, it's always useful to have something to absorb opponent attacks away from your permanent troops (Inferno gating works great for this as well). In this way, they're more like a super-defensive spell - all your opponent stacks beating up on your water elementals protects your troops more effecively than Arcane Armor. However, with the numbers summoned (or one-shot dispelling), they are unlikely to survive to serve this purpose for long.

Other than these spells, several of the other summoning spells, as noted above, are not up to par with the other schools.

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Unread postby PhoenixReborn » 11 Aug 2007, 14:58

Well since Nevermindspy isn't responding I will take a guess as to what the means namely that summoning is the best school of magic for creeping.

Your likely to get one of wasp swarm, fire trap, or phantom forces and they are all superb in creeping. The game is won or lost in the first couple of weeks where resource and creature and advantage are made. You can take abnormally difficult odds against neutrals with spells like these, especially if it only takes a couple levels to get up to expert summoning.

And then of course Conjure phoenix and Arcane Armor are both highly effective spells.

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Unread postby Mirez » 11 Aug 2007, 19:37

the damage that wasp swam does is a joke, so the only reason to use it, is to lower the opponents initiative
slow is however also good at it and can be mass casted.....

dark>summoning
treants are dendrosexual 0_o

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Unread postby PhoenixReborn » 12 Aug 2007, 02:54

haloswift wrote:the damage that wasp swam does is a joke, so the only reason to use it, is to lower the opponents initiative
Exactly. You can for example kill a stack of deep hydras with one shooting stack just by wasp swarming it over and over. Early in the game this is huge.

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Unread postby Grumpy Old Wizard » 12 Aug 2007, 10:05

PhoenixReborn wrote:
haloswift wrote:the damage that wasp swam does is a joke, so the only reason to use it, is to lower the opponents initiative
Exactly. You can for example kill a stack of deep hydras with one shooting stack just by wasp swarming it over and over. Early in the game this is huge.
Well, as I posted a page back, the other schools have so many more spells that are more nearly always useful instead of useful in more limited situations. Wasp swarm is one of my favorite spells though. :)

Destruction will damage/destroy that stack outright or destroy more than one stack with its area attack spells (and special abilities to slow with ice and lightning magic.)

Dark magic will slow a lot of stacks or confuse the stack so it can't retaliate/shoot/cast spells. Or decay a lot of stacks or stop and take control of a stack (mass decay, blind, beserk, puppetmaster.)

Light magic will make all of your troops much faster to act (mass speed) or buff all of your troops in various ways. Or protect all of your troops from shooters or make one of your stacks immune to magic or teleport your tank next to a shooter to block him or permanently raise your troops from the dead.

Summoning could use a bit of a boost to bring it up to speed.

GOW
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Unread postby nevermindspy » 12 Aug 2007, 12:59

Letz compare our two analisys

you:
Summoning is the least powerful and has no mass spells and is light on area effect spells (fire trap and firewall.)

me :
It is best :P

you:
Level1:
--Fist of wrath is very weak. It is not going to help you creep right off the bat.

. Is it really weak ? Is eldritch arrow weak? (from the o mighty
destructive magic :P)
Well the answer is no , at expert level it can do more damage then arrow starting from power 11 (or 7 if you have master of life )
Plus ofcourse it ignores resist and immunity Which ofcourse is an example why summoning is the best magic , Simply because it is the most usefull , Unlike other schools which has times of unusefullness, against creeping and against other players some
summoning magic will ALWAYS be usefull..(for exmpale against other players it can't be countered , Like for example you cast mass slow only to find your opponent cast mass haste right after and well your screwed :) )




--Fire Trap. Since they changed the spell to let you select the area where the traps appear, it is very useful once you get it to expert.

Very useful ? , Try the best spell in the game ? (creeping wise )
No i'm not high , Might be the most underestimated spell in the game?(by some)
Lots of dragons week 2 here i come :P

Level2:
--Raise Dead is godly for necros. Minimally useful for others (especially with low spell power or creatures that can't be raised.)
me:

I could think of alott of uses for this very usefull spell , i know i wanna have it every game on any faction. (creeping uses.. )

--Wasp Swarm is good once you get it to expert, especially for wizards for use with MOTW.

ye tis a nice spell


Level 3:
--Earthquake won't help you creep
Yes indeed even having the most unusefull magic in the game still summoning is best :P

--Phantom Forces. Good, but was nerfed too much.

yes well lvl3 spells are not that usefull on most schools.

Level 4:
--Firewall is ok now that you can cast it on stacks but could be better.

Has uses but yes kinda unusefull too , hehe i suppose yes this school has most number of useless spells , but it is still most usefull simply because you don't have to cast those spells and those who are good spells are usefull for any situation.

--Summon Elementals is the most useless level 4 spell in the game. The creatures are too slow at acting and not powerful enough (can't stack them anymore.)

I would say that about firewall but summon elemntals has HUGE creeping value , sure in final battle is a gamble you don't wanna take if you don't have to but in creeping it has a huge role

Level 5:
--Summon Phoenix is good early but easily destroyed as the game progresses. Banish can destroy it outright as can Harm Touch.

umm ,good early , good late just GOOD , Yes against necro is risky but against other towns? Simply the best spell in the game (creeping and not creeping wise )


--Arcane Armor. Situationally useful. It is usually better to try to do damage to or incapacitate the enemy. No creeping value here.
Well you wrong in first point , dead right on 2nd .

This spell is not very usefull in creeping but in the final battle you can be amazed by its strength.


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