Elemental Vision

[Tao Jones]

From the official website, in the section on racial abilities of the Dungeon faction:

Elemental Vision
Dark Elves have an innate binding to the magical elements of nature, associated with damage and destruction. With proper training – and with special buildings erected in Dungeon towns – the Warlock can “feel” what element (fire, air, water or earth) is bound to the given creature and to the terrain segment the creature is battling upon, and use this knowledge to his or her advantage. Attacking enemy creatures with opposing elements will result in additional damage, while positioning your creatures to match the elemental characteristics of the terrain will raise their stats.
This ability works even without conscious application, but if managed correctly it’ll be of significant power surplus for any Warlock hero.

If I'm reading this right, it would seem that each square on the 8x10 battlefield is secretly associated with an "element" that affects the combat abilities of the creature that occupies it. With the proper skill, one can "see" these secret associations and exploit them, but they apply whether they are seen or not.

One question. Why?

For starters, it makes calculating the relative strengths of two opposing units much harder. Unit X vs. Unit Y on square Z works one way, but on square A works differently. Huh? The "Luck" attribute wasn't random enough?

I can see it now. "My Titans would've beaten those Dragons but unbenownst to me they were standing on a Fire square..."

Can someone explain the point of this to me, or if I'm going off half-cocked over a triviality? Frankly, I prefer knowing within certain constraints what's going to happen when Unit X and Y knock heads. This seems, to borrow csarmi's favorite word, "useless".

[Kristo]

So 5/6 of the time you don't know the Element things are there, but they work anyway. Or more importantly, 5/6 of the time it's used against you and you have no way to defend against it. Nice.

[Arzang]

Can someone explain the point of this to me, or if I'm going off half-cocked over a triviality? Frankly, I prefer knowing within certain constraints what's going to happen when Unit X and Y knock heads. This seems, to borrow csarmi's favorite word, "useless".

it's all a scheme from ubi to implement more "random features" in the game play.

expect more, whether or not they'll be appreciated.

[Gaidal Cain]

So far, I haven't seen any link to the terrain. My guess is that it will take a while, but then most people will know exactly waht elements are associated with what, and will be using them in every battle. The Warlocks' big advantage would then be extra ease that their vision affords them when they se the system.

[ThunderTitan]

Wouldn't we actualy see the raise in stats anyway? And the extra damage when we put the cursor on the creature like in H3? Sure, once we move the creature to a spot it's done, but you would know when you move the next creature.

@Cain:

Wouldn't it be random on each BF?

Oh, and how will it work on the 8x10 BF?

[Gaidal Cain]

Wouldn't it be random on each BF?

Oh, and how will it work on the 8x10 BF?

I've not see it differ on different fields. Doesn't mean that it won't happen, just that I haven't seen it. And I don't see what battlefield size has to do with it

[ThunderTitan]

I've not see it differ on different fields. Doesn't mean that it won't happen, just that I haven't seen it. And I don't see what battlefield size has to do with it

Less variation on a smaller BF. But if it's always the same on all BF's that it doesn't matter, does it! Elemental vision is kinda useless if the terrain is always the same.

[Mutare Drake]

I don't like this idea, unless it gets helped a bit. As everyone's said, it seems too random, especially since most of the time you won't be able to use it really. So are they going to have a checkerboard of elemental squares on each battlefield? It seems rather pointless to me, unless I'm missing something big.

[Gaidal Cain]

All right, here's how it worked last time I tried it (from what I know, it's the same as in Open Beta):
Every creature is associated with one element. Every upgraded creatures gets another. Damage spells also have two elements. When a creature is attacked by a creature (or has a damage spell cast on it), different things happen:
1. If the attacker shares an element, a counter is increased by one and the elements of the defender is changed to that of the attacker.
2. If the defender only has one element, and it differs from the attackers, the counter is set to 1 and the defenders element's changes.
2. If the attacker only has one element, and it differs from the ones of the defender, the attacker does damage equal to d(1+n/2), where d is base damage and n is the number of counters
3. If the attacker has two elements, and both differ, damage equals d(n+1).
4. The counter ("n") is reset to zero whenever the creature gets a turn.

Not sure of every detail here, but it's the general idea.

[ThunderTitan]

God, i hate math.

[Kristo]

Wow that's complicated. Maybe we should be glad we can't see it most of the time.

[Arzang]

All right, here's how it worked last time I tried it (from what I know, it's the same as in Open Beta):
Every creature is associated with one element. Every upgraded creatures gets another. Damage spells also have two elements. When a creature is attacked by a creature (or has a damage spell cast on it), different things happen:
1. If the attacker shares an element, a counter is increased by one and the elements of the defender is changed to that of the attacker.
2. If the defender only has one element, and it differs from the attackers, the counter is set to 1 and the defenders element's changes.
2. If the attacker only has one element, and it differs from the ones of the defender, the attacker does damage equal to d(1+n/2), where d is base damage and n is the number of counters
3. If the attacker has two elements, and both differ, damage equals d(n+1).
4. The counter ("n") is reset to zero whenever the creature gets a turn.

Not sure of every detail here, but it's the general idea.

could you explain thoroughly what counter and sharing an element imply?

[Tao Jones]

Okay, thanks GC for the explaination. My opinion of this system hasn't changed, but it looks like the effects won't be very powerful if those formulae hold through release. I still think it's unnecessarily complex and obtuse.

Some of my concerns relate to placing ones troops via tactics before battle. A random set of elemental assignations could put you at a disadvantage before battle even begins, since you are limited to the two "home rows" and those may be infested with negative elements. Couple that with bad initiative and you could be in for a spanking even with a superior force.

From Kristo:

Wow that's complicated. Maybe we should be glad we can't see it most of the time.

Really. But it gets worse. At the risk of hijacking my own thread, this is from The Genies Lamp section on hero skills:

Lucky Spells
Luck rolls will now be applied to destructive spells cast by the hero, thus letting a chance for double damage from spells.

This would seem to imply that Luck has a chance of doing double damage with plain vanilla ranged and melee attacks.

Say what?

Coupled with the (admittedly not finalized) low apparent hitpoints of even Level 7 creatures, bad luck is going to get you killed. A lot.

Throw out any hope of comparing the relative strengths of two armies. It's all about the dice, now.

Since there's no emoticon in a black funk with a cloud over his round little head, I'll use this one...

[ThunderTitan]

Yeah, but the combat will be faster! And we all know that that's a good thing.

[Gaidal Cain]

Okay, thanks GC for the explaination. My opinion of this system hasn't changed, but it looks like the effects won't be very powerful if those formulae hold through release. I still think it's unnecessarily complex and obtuse.

It's really not as bad as it sounds. One gets the hang of it pretty quickly, but it really rewards good planning. And not very powerful? One attack that added 1 to the counter will double the damage of the next one

Some of my concerns relate to placing ones troops via tactics before battle. A random set of elemental assignations could put you at a disadvantage before battle even begins, since you are limited to the two "home rows" and those may be infested with negative elements. Couple that with bad initiative and you could be in for a spanking even with a superior force.

No negative elements. The elements are the classical ones: Air, Earth, Fire, Water. At start of each combat, each unit type allways has the same elements, though it may changed through the battle, as outlined above.

This would seem to imply that Luck has a chance of doing double damage with plain vanilla ranged and melee attacks.

AFAIK, you only get lucky- no matter how bad your luck, you'll never do less than normal damage.

[umfridus]

I think all this elemental stuff is way too complicated and should be cut from the game. Didn't the developers argue that they give each faction only one hero type instead of two to make the game easier for newcomers? Then they confuse everyone, old and new, with this archane elemental stuff.

[Gaidal Cain]

As I said, it's easier than it sounds. You'll see for yourself when you try out dungeon

[Mutare Drake]

Sure hope it's easier than it sounds...seems a bit complex to me. I'll take your word for it for now, though, I guess we'll all just have to see for ourselves.

[Hurry Sundown]

I think they are increasing the random probabilities in the game then, if this is true, U NO luck. Therefore, in CONclusion , after much windbaggedness, i therefore conclude what? , let me tink a-bit. Oh yea, I got it now. It becomes a game with more luck/chance to have an undessireable outcome in a battle but overall skill in strategizing is most important. - Steve

[Salisa]

How to ruin a game based on STRATEGY!! Add randomness so its no longer a strategy game...but more like a gambling game, I'm sorry just my opinion.