For those of you who feel the Renegades are fine as they are

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For those of you who feel the Renegades are fine as they are

Unread postby King Imp » 22 Jun 2007, 17:43

Quick question for those of you who have said they think the Renegades are fine as they are and could be made the Haven's alternate upgrades with no changes. Have you ever in fact fought with or against them?

I have and trust me when I say they are much tougher now than the original Haven upgrades. playing around with the map editor, I have set up equal armies of the original Haven upgrades and the Renegades and every time the Renegades rip through them. Whether it be AI vs AI or me vs AI, the Renegades are much tougher and always win.

I personally have no problem with them making these guys the alternate upgrades, but don't say "oh, they're fine as they are" unless you have actually tested them.

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Unread postby okrane » 22 Jun 2007, 17:51

they should be balanced I agree... but, I like the ability set as it is...

I mean, the skills are nice, they should lower though some of the stats and it should be fine...

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Unread postby Grumpy Old Wizard » 22 Jun 2007, 18:12

They are imbalanced. It is a shame that Nival decided to make them the alternates.

The problem with the alternate upgrades is that they vary greatly in power both with the original upgrades and between the alternate upgrades of the various factions. There is a LOT of rebalancing that needs to be done.

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Unread postby Apocalypse » 22 Jun 2007, 18:12

The Renegades are overpowered indeed, but seeing as how the other alternatives are overpowered too... :disagree: (*cough* SharpShooter *cough*)
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Unread postby Angelspit » 22 Jun 2007, 18:30

The stats should be meaningless at this point. Ubisoft should not have published them.

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Unread postby ThunderTitan » 22 Jun 2007, 18:31

I only said they don't need new skills... them being unbalanced is another thing.
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Unread postby Jolly Joker » 22 Jun 2007, 18:34

As I posted in the official forum:
I wouldn't be too surprised *cough* if there were some changes with the "renegades *cough*. That changes might include ability changes, stat changes, *cough* as well as even a renaming *cough*.

As a sidenote, while ToE will make all HoF creatures available it won't INCLUDE HoF, specifically the HoF campaigns. THAT in turn means that you can play the HoF campaigns only with HoF, right? THAT in turn means that you COULD just play some "overpowered" renegade unit in the HoF campaigns and a remade version in ToE. Exclusively technically spoken, of course.
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Unread postby jeff » 22 Jun 2007, 18:37

Jolly Joker wrote:As I posted in the official forum:
I wouldn't be too surprised *cough* if there were some changes with the "renegades *cough*. That changes might include ability changes, stat changes, *cough* as well as even a renaming *cough*.

As a sidenote, while ToE will make all HoF creatures available it won't INCLUDE HoF, specifically the HoF campaigns. THAT in turn means that you can play the HoF campaigns only with HoF, right? THAT in turn means that you COULD just play some "overpowered" renegade unit in the HoF campaigns and a remade version in ToE. Exclusively technically spoken, of course.
Perhaps they are planning a patch to HOF that will standardize the units between the three releases. ;|
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Unread postby Grumpy Old Wizard » 22 Jun 2007, 18:38

Apocalypse wrote:The Renegades are overpowered indeed, but seeing as how the other alternatives are overpowered too... :disagree: (*cough* SharpShooter *cough*)
All of the other alternates are not overpowered. The academy alternates for instance pretty much suck (with the possible exception of the golem.) And of course the enemy heroe is under no obligation to cast spells on the golems.

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Unread postby Grumpy Old Wizard » 22 Jun 2007, 18:42

jeff wrote: Perhaps they are planning a patch to HOF that will standardize the units between the three releases. ;|
Yeah, but now they have to make patches for HOMM5 original, HOF, and TOTE for all the different language versions. And they aren't renowned for the speed for which they release patches.

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Unread postby Jolly Joker » 22 Jun 2007, 18:45

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote:
Apocalypse wrote:The Renegades are overpowered indeed, but seeing as how the other alternatives are overpowered too... :disagree: (*cough* SharpShooter *cough*)
All of the other alternates are not overpowered. The academy alternates for instance pretty much suck (with the possible exception of the golem.) And of course the enemy heroe is under no obligation to cast spells on the golems.

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Unread postby jeff » 22 Jun 2007, 18:45

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote:
jeff wrote: Perhaps they are planning a patch to HOF that will standardize the units between the three releases. ;|
Yeah, but now they have to make patches for HOMM5 original, HOF, and TOTE for all the different language versions. And they aren't renowned for the speed for which they release patches.

GOW
Yeah, I do not know how anybody can be happy about that, since I'll end up with all three, that will make patching a pain even with their updating system. :disagree:
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Unread postby ThunderTitan » 22 Jun 2007, 18:50

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote:And of course the enemy heroes is under no obligation to cast spells on the golems.
Maybe in the next patch.
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.....

Unread postby nevermindspy » 22 Jun 2007, 19:46

Actually i don't agree to saying they are completly overpowered , For me all the units are about the same strength besides the Fallen angel - Now the Fallen angel is insanly overpowered for an upgraded lvl 7 , If they balance him a little then the town should be ok..

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Unread postby Apocalypse » 22 Jun 2007, 19:47

And of course the enemy heroes is under no obligation to cast spells on the golems.
It's like saying: the enemy is under no obligation to keep his creatures close to each other... that makes abilities like Fire Breath, Three-Headed attack and others useless right?
Or: the enemy is under no obligation to attack Succubi with ranged creatures, that means the Ranged Retaliate is useless... it's NOT. It prevents you from attacking them from ranged.

So with the Golem. It prevents you to attack it with spells and even AREA spells... say, you have a good target spot with Meteor Shower, but that includes the Golems, so if you'll want to target a lot of enemy units (an example) and do a lot of damage, you'll also heal the Golems, resulting in the ability not being useless...


But I agree, most Academy units are not overpowered, they are fine balanced (and so should be the others of course)
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Re: .....

Unread postby Mirez » 22 Jun 2007, 21:28

nevermindspy wrote:Actually i don't agree to saying they are completly overpowered , For me all the units are about the same strength besides the Fallen angel - Now the Fallen angel is insanly overpowered for an upgraded lvl 7 , If they balance him a little then the town should be ok..
vampirism will make all creatures have that ablility, so both arch and fallen angels's ability is replacable (still good though)
treants are dendrosexual 0_o

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Unread postby Orfinn » 22 Jun 2007, 22:41

The Renegades are indeed powerful but not as much as I belived, anyway Here I have tried to nerf them to a more balanced level so it feels fairer for both white and red :)


TIER 1

Conscript

Attack 1
Defense 1
Dmg 1 - 2
Initiative 8
Speed 4
Health 6
Mana 0
Shots 0

UNIQUE Special abilities (not counting abilities that both may have): Bash

Enforcer

Attack 2
Defense 1
Dmg 1 - 2
Initiative 8
Speed 4
Health 6
Mana 0
Shots 0

UNIQUE Special abilities (not counting abilities that both have): Both taxpayer from peasant and bash from conscript.

My balance suggestion: Hmm... Here for the Enforcer, either remove both abilities and just give 1 point more to health. Or give them only taxpayer ability and -1 to initiative

TIER 2

Marksman

Attack 4
Defense 4
Dmg 2 - 8
Initiative 8
Speed 4
Health 10
Mana 0
Shots 12

UNIQUE Special abilities (not counting abilities that both have): Precise Shot

Crossbowman

Attack 5
Defense 4
Dmg 2 - 8
Initiative 8
Speed 4
Health 10
Mana 0
Shots 10

UNIQUE Special abilities (not counting abilities that both upg may have): No range penality

My balance suggestion: For the Crossbowman. Make the damage range 2-6 in addition to reduce defense and initiative with 1 or/and reduce the max amount of shots from 10 to 8.

TIER 3

Squire

Attack 5
Defense 9
Dmg 2 - 5
Initiative 8
Speed 4
Health 26
Mana 0
Shots 0

UNIQUE Special abilities (not counting abilities that both upg may have): Shield Allies, Bash, Enraged

Vindicator

Attack 8
Defense 8
Dmg 2 - 5
Initiative 8
Speed 4
Health 26
Mana 0
Shots 0

UNIQUE Special abilities (not counting abilities that both upg may have): Cleave

My balance suggestion: Let them stay the same!

TIER 4

Imperial Griffin

Attack 9
Defense 8
Dmg 5 - 15
Initiative 15
Speed 7
Health 35
Mana 0
Shots 0

UNIQUE Special abilities (not counting abilities that both may have): Battle Dive

Battle Griffin

Attack 6
Defense 12
Dmg 5 - 15
Initiative 15
Speed 7
Health 35
Mana 0
Shots 0

UNIQUE Special abilities (not counting abilities that both may have): Battle Frenzy

My balance suggestion: Lower the battle griffins defense with 1 maybe lower the speed too with -1

TIER 5

Inquisitor

Attack 16
Defense 16
Dmg 9 - 12
Initiative 10
Speed 5
Health 80
Mana 12
Shots 7

UNIQUE Special abilities (not counting abilities that both may have): Spells: Advanced Divine Strenght, Haste and Endurance

Zealot

Attack 20
Defense 14
Dmg 9 - 12
Initiative 10
Speed 5
Health 80
Mana 15
Shots 5

UNIQUE Special abilities (not counting abilities that both may have): Advanced Blindness, Expert Righteous Might

My balance suggestion: For the Zealot, Basic blindness and advanced R.M and/or lower speed with -1 and/or lower hit points with 5.

TIER 6

Paladin

Attack 24
Defense 24
Dmg 20 - 30
Initiative 12
Speed 8
Health 100
Mana 0
Shots 0

UNIQUE Special abilities (not counting abilities that both may have): Lay Hands

Champion

Attack 24
Defense 20
Dmg 20 - 35
Initiative 12
Speed 8
Health 100
Mana 0
Shots 0

UNIQUE Special abilities (not counting abilities that both may have): Champion Charge

My balance suggestion: For the Champion, give it a wider damage range, from 15-35 instead of 20-35. And maybe -1 in initiative.

TIER 7

Archangel

Attack 31
Defense 31
Dmg 50 - 50
Initiative 11
Speed 8
Health 220
Mana 0
Shots 0

UNIQUE Special abilities (not counting abilities that both may have): Resurrect Allies

Fallen Angel

Attack 35
Defense 25
Dmg 25 - 75
Initiative 11
Speed 8
Health 220
Mana 0
Shots 0

UNIQUE Special abilities (not counting abilities that both may have): Life Drain

My balance suggestion: Stats are balanced, otherwise... If the life drain ability will still apply, nerf speed and initiative by 1. If not, leave it as before. Unlikely and the Fallen Angel would just be a pimped up Angel. (Fallen and Elrath didnt give that angel any spec.abilities as punishment)

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Re: .....

Unread postby Grumpy Old Wizard » 22 Jun 2007, 23:21

haloswift wrote:
nevermindspy wrote:Actually i don't agree to saying they are completly overpowered , For me all the units are about the same strength besides the Fallen angel - Now the Fallen angel is insanly overpowered for an upgraded lvl 7 , If they balance him a little then the town should be ok..
vampirism will make all creatures have that ablility, so both arch and fallen angels's ability is replacable (still good though)
The vampirism spell Nival plans to add in the TOTE expansion is game breakingly overpowered.

GOW
Frodo: "I wish the ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened."
Gandalf: "So do all who live to see such times but that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us."

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Unread postby Omega_Destroyer » 22 Jun 2007, 23:23

I think it will be fine if it's limited to a single creature per casting.
And the chickens. Those damn chickens.

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Unread postby King Imp » 23 Jun 2007, 05:12

Omega_Destroyer wrote:I think it will be fine if it's limited to a single creature per casting.


And make sure it cannot be cast on inanimate units. Before you say they wouldn't do that, let me remind all that in the beginning the Vampire could drain life from Golems and Gargoyles and other non-living units. That was yet another thing we had to drive through their heads to fix.


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