For those of you who feel the Renegades are fine as they are
For those of you who feel the Renegades are fine as they are
Quick question for those of you who have said they think the Renegades are fine as they are and could be made the Haven's alternate upgrades with no changes. Have you ever in fact fought with or against them?
I have and trust me when I say they are much tougher now than the original Haven upgrades. playing around with the map editor, I have set up equal armies of the original Haven upgrades and the Renegades and every time the Renegades rip through them. Whether it be AI vs AI or me vs AI, the Renegades are much tougher and always win.
I personally have no problem with them making these guys the alternate upgrades, but don't say "oh, they're fine as they are" unless you have actually tested them.
I have and trust me when I say they are much tougher now than the original Haven upgrades. playing around with the map editor, I have set up equal armies of the original Haven upgrades and the Renegades and every time the Renegades rip through them. Whether it be AI vs AI or me vs AI, the Renegades are much tougher and always win.
I personally have no problem with them making these guys the alternate upgrades, but don't say "oh, they're fine as they are" unless you have actually tested them.
- Grumpy Old Wizard
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They are imbalanced. It is a shame that Nival decided to make them the alternates.
The problem with the alternate upgrades is that they vary greatly in power both with the original upgrades and between the alternate upgrades of the various factions. There is a LOT of rebalancing that needs to be done.
GOW
The problem with the alternate upgrades is that they vary greatly in power both with the original upgrades and between the alternate upgrades of the various factions. There is a LOT of rebalancing that needs to be done.
GOW
Frodo: "I wish the ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened."
Gandalf: "So do all who live to see such times but that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us."
Gandalf: "So do all who live to see such times but that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us."
- Apocalypse
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- ThunderTitan
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I only said they don't need new skills... them being unbalanced is another thing.
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- Jolly Joker
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As I posted in the official forum:
I wouldn't be too surprised *cough* if there were some changes with the "renegades *cough*. That changes might include ability changes, stat changes, *cough* as well as even a renaming *cough*.
As a sidenote, while ToE will make all HoF creatures available it won't INCLUDE HoF, specifically the HoF campaigns. THAT in turn means that you can play the HoF campaigns only with HoF, right? THAT in turn means that you COULD just play some "overpowered" renegade unit in the HoF campaigns and a remade version in ToE. Exclusively technically spoken, of course.
I wouldn't be too surprised *cough* if there were some changes with the "renegades *cough*. That changes might include ability changes, stat changes, *cough* as well as even a renaming *cough*.
As a sidenote, while ToE will make all HoF creatures available it won't INCLUDE HoF, specifically the HoF campaigns. THAT in turn means that you can play the HoF campaigns only with HoF, right? THAT in turn means that you COULD just play some "overpowered" renegade unit in the HoF campaigns and a remade version in ToE. Exclusively technically spoken, of course.
ZZZzzzz....
Perhaps they are planning a patch to HOF that will standardize the units between the three releases.Jolly Joker wrote:As I posted in the official forum:
I wouldn't be too surprised *cough* if there were some changes with the "renegades *cough*. That changes might include ability changes, stat changes, *cough* as well as even a renaming *cough*.
As a sidenote, while ToE will make all HoF creatures available it won't INCLUDE HoF, specifically the HoF campaigns. THAT in turn means that you can play the HoF campaigns only with HoF, right? THAT in turn means that you COULD just play some "overpowered" renegade unit in the HoF campaigns and a remade version in ToE. Exclusively technically spoken, of course.
Mala Ipsa Nova
- Grumpy Old Wizard
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All of the other alternates are not overpowered. The academy alternates for instance pretty much suck (with the possible exception of the golem.) And of course the enemy heroe is under no obligation to cast spells on the golems.Apocalypse wrote:The Renegades are overpowered indeed, but seeing as how the other alternatives are overpowered too... (*cough* SharpShooter *cough*)
GOW
Frodo: "I wish the ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened."
Gandalf: "So do all who live to see such times but that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us."
Gandalf: "So do all who live to see such times but that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us."
- Grumpy Old Wizard
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Yeah, but now they have to make patches for HOMM5 original, HOF, and TOTE for all the different language versions. And they aren't renowned for the speed for which they release patches.jeff wrote: Perhaps they are planning a patch to HOF that will standardize the units between the three releases.
GOW
Frodo: "I wish the ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened."
Gandalf: "So do all who live to see such times but that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us."
Gandalf: "So do all who live to see such times but that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us."
- Jolly Joker
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Grumpy Old Wizard wrote:All of the other alternates are not overpowered. The academy alternates for instance pretty much suck (with the possible exception of the golem.) And of course the enemy heroe is under no obligation to cast spells on the golems.Apocalypse wrote:The Renegades are overpowered indeed, but seeing as how the other alternatives are overpowered too... (*cough* SharpShooter *cough*)
GOW
ZZZzzzz....
Yeah, I do not know how anybody can be happy about that, since I'll end up with all three, that will make patching a pain even with their updating system.Grumpy Old Wizard wrote:Yeah, but now they have to make patches for HOMM5 original, HOF, and TOTE for all the different language versions. And they aren't renowned for the speed for which they release patches.jeff wrote: Perhaps they are planning a patch to HOF that will standardize the units between the three releases.
GOW
Mala Ipsa Nova
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Maybe in the next patch.Grumpy Old Wizard wrote:And of course the enemy heroes is under no obligation to cast spells on the golems.
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- Pixie
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.....
Actually i don't agree to saying they are completly overpowered , For me all the units are about the same strength besides the Fallen angel - Now the Fallen angel is insanly overpowered for an upgraded lvl 7 , If they balance him a little then the town should be ok..
- Apocalypse
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It's like saying: the enemy is under no obligation to keep his creatures close to each other... that makes abilities like Fire Breath, Three-Headed attack and others useless right?And of course the enemy heroes is under no obligation to cast spells on the golems.
Or: the enemy is under no obligation to attack Succubi with ranged creatures, that means the Ranged Retaliate is useless... it's NOT. It prevents you from attacking them from ranged.
So with the Golem. It prevents you to attack it with spells and even AREA spells... say, you have a good target spot with Meteor Shower, but that includes the Golems, so if you'll want to target a lot of enemy units (an example) and do a lot of damage, you'll also heal the Golems, resulting in the ability not being useless...
But I agree, most Academy units are not overpowered, they are fine balanced (and so should be the others of course)
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- Mirez
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Re: .....
vampirism will make all creatures have that ablility, so both arch and fallen angels's ability is replacable (still good though)nevermindspy wrote:Actually i don't agree to saying they are completly overpowered , For me all the units are about the same strength besides the Fallen angel - Now the Fallen angel is insanly overpowered for an upgraded lvl 7 , If they balance him a little then the town should be ok..
treants are dendrosexual 0_o
The Renegades are indeed powerful but not as much as I belived, anyway Here I have tried to nerf them to a more balanced level so it feels fairer for both white and red
TIER 1
Conscript
Attack 1
Defense 1
Dmg 1 - 2
Initiative 8
Speed 4
Health 6
Mana 0
Shots 0
UNIQUE Special abilities (not counting abilities that both may have): Bash
Enforcer
Attack 2
Defense 1
Dmg 1 - 2
Initiative 8
Speed 4
Health 6
Mana 0
Shots 0
UNIQUE Special abilities (not counting abilities that both have): Both taxpayer from peasant and bash from conscript.
My balance suggestion: Hmm... Here for the Enforcer, either remove both abilities and just give 1 point more to health. Or give them only taxpayer ability and -1 to initiative
TIER 2
Marksman
Attack 4
Defense 4
Dmg 2 - 8
Initiative 8
Speed 4
Health 10
Mana 0
Shots 12
UNIQUE Special abilities (not counting abilities that both have): Precise Shot
Crossbowman
Attack 5
Defense 4
Dmg 2 - 8
Initiative 8
Speed 4
Health 10
Mana 0
Shots 10
UNIQUE Special abilities (not counting abilities that both upg may have): No range penality
My balance suggestion: For the Crossbowman. Make the damage range 2-6 in addition to reduce defense and initiative with 1 or/and reduce the max amount of shots from 10 to 8.
TIER 3
Squire
Attack 5
Defense 9
Dmg 2 - 5
Initiative 8
Speed 4
Health 26
Mana 0
Shots 0
UNIQUE Special abilities (not counting abilities that both upg may have): Shield Allies, Bash, Enraged
Vindicator
Attack 8
Defense 8
Dmg 2 - 5
Initiative 8
Speed 4
Health 26
Mana 0
Shots 0
UNIQUE Special abilities (not counting abilities that both upg may have): Cleave
My balance suggestion: Let them stay the same!
TIER 4
Imperial Griffin
Attack 9
Defense 8
Dmg 5 - 15
Initiative 15
Speed 7
Health 35
Mana 0
Shots 0
UNIQUE Special abilities (not counting abilities that both may have): Battle Dive
Battle Griffin
Attack 6
Defense 12
Dmg 5 - 15
Initiative 15
Speed 7
Health 35
Mana 0
Shots 0
UNIQUE Special abilities (not counting abilities that both may have): Battle Frenzy
My balance suggestion: Lower the battle griffins defense with 1 maybe lower the speed too with -1
TIER 5
Inquisitor
Attack 16
Defense 16
Dmg 9 - 12
Initiative 10
Speed 5
Health 80
Mana 12
Shots 7
UNIQUE Special abilities (not counting abilities that both may have): Spells: Advanced Divine Strenght, Haste and Endurance
Zealot
Attack 20
Defense 14
Dmg 9 - 12
Initiative 10
Speed 5
Health 80
Mana 15
Shots 5
UNIQUE Special abilities (not counting abilities that both may have): Advanced Blindness, Expert Righteous Might
My balance suggestion: For the Zealot, Basic blindness and advanced R.M and/or lower speed with -1 and/or lower hit points with 5.
TIER 6
Paladin
Attack 24
Defense 24
Dmg 20 - 30
Initiative 12
Speed 8
Health 100
Mana 0
Shots 0
UNIQUE Special abilities (not counting abilities that both may have): Lay Hands
Champion
Attack 24
Defense 20
Dmg 20 - 35
Initiative 12
Speed 8
Health 100
Mana 0
Shots 0
UNIQUE Special abilities (not counting abilities that both may have): Champion Charge
My balance suggestion: For the Champion, give it a wider damage range, from 15-35 instead of 20-35. And maybe -1 in initiative.
TIER 7
Archangel
Attack 31
Defense 31
Dmg 50 - 50
Initiative 11
Speed 8
Health 220
Mana 0
Shots 0
UNIQUE Special abilities (not counting abilities that both may have): Resurrect Allies
Fallen Angel
Attack 35
Defense 25
Dmg 25 - 75
Initiative 11
Speed 8
Health 220
Mana 0
Shots 0
UNIQUE Special abilities (not counting abilities that both may have): Life Drain
My balance suggestion: Stats are balanced, otherwise... If the life drain ability will still apply, nerf speed and initiative by 1. If not, leave it as before. Unlikely and the Fallen Angel would just be a pimped up Angel. (Fallen and Elrath didnt give that angel any spec.abilities as punishment)
TIER 1
Conscript
Attack 1
Defense 1
Dmg 1 - 2
Initiative 8
Speed 4
Health 6
Mana 0
Shots 0
UNIQUE Special abilities (not counting abilities that both may have): Bash
Enforcer
Attack 2
Defense 1
Dmg 1 - 2
Initiative 8
Speed 4
Health 6
Mana 0
Shots 0
UNIQUE Special abilities (not counting abilities that both have): Both taxpayer from peasant and bash from conscript.
My balance suggestion: Hmm... Here for the Enforcer, either remove both abilities and just give 1 point more to health. Or give them only taxpayer ability and -1 to initiative
TIER 2
Marksman
Attack 4
Defense 4
Dmg 2 - 8
Initiative 8
Speed 4
Health 10
Mana 0
Shots 12
UNIQUE Special abilities (not counting abilities that both have): Precise Shot
Crossbowman
Attack 5
Defense 4
Dmg 2 - 8
Initiative 8
Speed 4
Health 10
Mana 0
Shots 10
UNIQUE Special abilities (not counting abilities that both upg may have): No range penality
My balance suggestion: For the Crossbowman. Make the damage range 2-6 in addition to reduce defense and initiative with 1 or/and reduce the max amount of shots from 10 to 8.
TIER 3
Squire
Attack 5
Defense 9
Dmg 2 - 5
Initiative 8
Speed 4
Health 26
Mana 0
Shots 0
UNIQUE Special abilities (not counting abilities that both upg may have): Shield Allies, Bash, Enraged
Vindicator
Attack 8
Defense 8
Dmg 2 - 5
Initiative 8
Speed 4
Health 26
Mana 0
Shots 0
UNIQUE Special abilities (not counting abilities that both upg may have): Cleave
My balance suggestion: Let them stay the same!
TIER 4
Imperial Griffin
Attack 9
Defense 8
Dmg 5 - 15
Initiative 15
Speed 7
Health 35
Mana 0
Shots 0
UNIQUE Special abilities (not counting abilities that both may have): Battle Dive
Battle Griffin
Attack 6
Defense 12
Dmg 5 - 15
Initiative 15
Speed 7
Health 35
Mana 0
Shots 0
UNIQUE Special abilities (not counting abilities that both may have): Battle Frenzy
My balance suggestion: Lower the battle griffins defense with 1 maybe lower the speed too with -1
TIER 5
Inquisitor
Attack 16
Defense 16
Dmg 9 - 12
Initiative 10
Speed 5
Health 80
Mana 12
Shots 7
UNIQUE Special abilities (not counting abilities that both may have): Spells: Advanced Divine Strenght, Haste and Endurance
Zealot
Attack 20
Defense 14
Dmg 9 - 12
Initiative 10
Speed 5
Health 80
Mana 15
Shots 5
UNIQUE Special abilities (not counting abilities that both may have): Advanced Blindness, Expert Righteous Might
My balance suggestion: For the Zealot, Basic blindness and advanced R.M and/or lower speed with -1 and/or lower hit points with 5.
TIER 6
Paladin
Attack 24
Defense 24
Dmg 20 - 30
Initiative 12
Speed 8
Health 100
Mana 0
Shots 0
UNIQUE Special abilities (not counting abilities that both may have): Lay Hands
Champion
Attack 24
Defense 20
Dmg 20 - 35
Initiative 12
Speed 8
Health 100
Mana 0
Shots 0
UNIQUE Special abilities (not counting abilities that both may have): Champion Charge
My balance suggestion: For the Champion, give it a wider damage range, from 15-35 instead of 20-35. And maybe -1 in initiative.
TIER 7
Archangel
Attack 31
Defense 31
Dmg 50 - 50
Initiative 11
Speed 8
Health 220
Mana 0
Shots 0
UNIQUE Special abilities (not counting abilities that both may have): Resurrect Allies
Fallen Angel
Attack 35
Defense 25
Dmg 25 - 75
Initiative 11
Speed 8
Health 220
Mana 0
Shots 0
UNIQUE Special abilities (not counting abilities that both may have): Life Drain
My balance suggestion: Stats are balanced, otherwise... If the life drain ability will still apply, nerf speed and initiative by 1. If not, leave it as before. Unlikely and the Fallen Angel would just be a pimped up Angel. (Fallen and Elrath didnt give that angel any spec.abilities as punishment)
- Grumpy Old Wizard
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- Location: Tower Grump
Re: .....
The vampirism spell Nival plans to add in the TOTE expansion is game breakingly overpowered.haloswift wrote:vampirism will make all creatures have that ablility, so both arch and fallen angels's ability is replacable (still good though)nevermindspy wrote:Actually i don't agree to saying they are completly overpowered , For me all the units are about the same strength besides the Fallen angel - Now the Fallen angel is insanly overpowered for an upgraded lvl 7 , If they balance him a little then the town should be ok..
GOW
Frodo: "I wish the ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened."
Gandalf: "So do all who live to see such times but that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us."
Gandalf: "So do all who live to see such times but that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us."
- Omega_Destroyer
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- Location: Corner of your Eye
Omega_Destroyer wrote:I think it will be fine if it's limited to a single creature per casting.
And make sure it cannot be cast on inanimate units. Before you say they wouldn't do that, let me remind all that in the beginning the Vampire could drain life from Golems and Gargoyles and other non-living units. That was yet another thing we had to drive through their heads to fix.
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