Inferno Strategy Thread

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Inferno Strategy Thread

Postby Caradoc » Jun 11 2007, 0:05

I know I'm jumping the gun here, but I wanted to drop off some of the bits I had already done before bowing out. This is the introduction -- use whatever you like.
Inferno is one of the most enjoyable factions to play. You get a good variety of creatures and heroes and probably the most useful of the faction abilities. However, to do well with Inferno you must play with more precision than the other factions. Your best armies (dogs and ponies) pack a wallop in combat, but are also quite vulnerable. Timing of attacks is everything. With only one shooter (Succubus) and one flier (Devils, actually a teleporter), you will be doing a lot of melee fighting.

Inferno towns have the worst buildings of all factions. The only one that’s the least bit interesting is the Sacrificial Pit, which is not a very good deal if you have to buy creatures to feed it. (However, if you can take a few level 1 generators, you can suck up the free Peasants or Gremlins to make a tasty soup.) Dwelling upgrades are sometimes very helpful (Cerberi) and sometimes not (Demons). The Mage Guild will provide some mighty Dark spells at the higher levels and this will be the school of choice for most Infernal heroes. But it is essential to keep in mind that Inferno is above all others a Might faction. And maybe more so than other factions, frequently the best use of your hero is to support the troops on the ground.
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Postby Caradoc » Jun 12 2007, 22:24

Here's the other part I had already done.
Skills
As for the essential skills, they are (and listed in order of importance):
Logistics – faster movement, Pathfinding>Swift Gating>Teleport Assault
Attack – better offense, Frenzy>Excruciating Strike>Power of Speed
Defense – better defense, Evasion>Hellwrath, maybe Vitality
Luck – better offense, Soldiers Luck>Swarming gate, Magic Resistance

As to magic, I’m tempted by Dark for the Puppet Master and Mass Slow/Confusion combo (Master of Mind). Also by Destructive for the attacking spells and even Summoning for Phantom Forces. Light is unnecessary with Power of Speed and Teleport Assault, though Resurrection is always helpful. Sorcery might be an option to speed up turns, but there’s not much else there you really want. But after due consideration, I conclude that for Inferno a magic school might not even be needed – with Mass Speed and Teleport Assault, the hero already has two or three rounds accounted for.

So I took a hard look at War Machines. First Aid Tent gives you a poorman’s Resurrection and Ballista is right for playing Deleb. But for storming castles, you want Catapult and Brimstone Rain.

However, after all is said and done, for my fifth skill I usually take … Leadership. The Morale boost is of enormous benefit to my slow army, and Gate Master amps up my gating. But the real reason here is Diplomacy, which lets me snag fodder for the Pit (and occasionally add to my army.)
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Postby Elvin » Jun 13 2007, 9:36

My only difference is that I'd swap dark with defense almost everytime. Yes, it will help you survive but dark helps both with creeping(especially large guardina stacks) and enemy heroes. Should the familiars and their gated reinforcements drain the enemy hero of his magic then a puppet master or mass slow/confusion can decide the game then and there. On larger maps with 2 towns it can happen from the first round too...

Oh and I take tactics from attack so that I can deal with shooters early. I'm all for power of speed but tactics suits me better, both for creeping and facing enemy heroes. Naturally I will aim for it vs necropolis :D
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hmm

Postby nevermindspy » Jun 13 2007, 13:10

For me War Machines is the no.1 priority for inferno any time

When you look at typical inferno hero development you get 45% to get attack and 30% to get knowledge combine that you get a 75% chance to get a point that goes directly to the damage output of the ballista - thats pretty powerfull..

Just for comparisment for the other races the highest of them all is wizard which is 10% attack and 45% at knowledge so only 55% thats a huge gap, inferno are the ultimate war machines town..

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Re: hmm

Postby Caradoc » Jun 14 2007, 23:07

For me War Machines is the no.1 priority for inferno any time

When you look at typical inferno hero development you get 45% to get attack and 30% to get knowledge combine that you get a 75% chance to get a point that goes directly to the damage output of the ballista - thats pretty powerfull..

Just for comparisment for the other races the highest of them all is wizard which is 10% attack and 45% at knowledge so only 55% thats a huge gap, inferno are the ultimate war machines town..
Knowledge increases Ballista damage? I didn't know that.
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Postby nevermindspy » Jun 15 2007, 8:47

yep , You learn something every time :)

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Postby Banedon » Jun 13 2009, 10:58

Was wondering whether to bump this thread or create a new one, looks like bumping it is.

I've been thinking of mastering Inferno so I can pull it off as a secret weapon the next game I play against my brothers (as opposed to my normal Sylvan / Dungeon / Haven). I've barely touched Inferno since TotE, I don't have much experience with them either. So ... where to start ...

1. Hero choice. I'm not sure about this one. Deleb is greatly nerfed - according to the skill wheel anyway her Fireballs deal like 100 damage total at high level, which isn't a lot, although her Ballista should be of great help early-game. Alastor is bad, Grok is bad (+10% movespeed at high levels, that's like Basic Logistics isn't it?). Marbas is a wild card I suppose could see play against Dungeon, Academy or Necro, but certainly not a universal choice. Jezebeth is plain bad (starting skills = Sorcery!?) and Succubi are pretty weak at damage to boot.

Which leaves:

Grawl: is great to start with I suppose, giving a lot of Hell Hounds as well. Too bad he misses out on ...
Nebiros: thing about Nebiros is that he starts with Tactics. Inferno creatures are so bad, yet Tactics allows Cerberi to cross the map in a turn and can is a crucial factor against ranged creatures. His +1 luck ability isn't too hot, and it doesn't scale with level too. Not so sure about the "no Tactics" ability. I can see myself doing without Tactics in a late-game fight, and if opponents know they're facing Nebiros they probably won't spend a slot learning it either.
Nymus: probably the best late-game Inferno hero, we're looking at +20% or so increased units here. But otherwise there's nothing spectacular about him and you do give up on the early-game advantages Grawl and Nebiros give.

I'm thinking start with Grawl, switch to Nymus if you get him in the Tavern early enough otherwise just keep Grawl and play on. Comments?

2. Creature choice. Mandatory thing about strategy threads, so ...

Familiars vs. Vermin - not sure. Although Vermins take their turn to steal mana, they do have +1 speed, which can help a lot early-game when Inferno is weak. I'm guessing start with Vermins and swap to Familiars later.

Grunts vs. Demons - who cares, they're out of the build chain and aren't necessary. Put them into sacrificial pit.

Cerberi vs. Firehounds - Firebreath early-game isn't useful. Probably start with Cerberi switch to Firehounds.

Mistresses vs. Seducers - you just got to have the Seducers because you need Seduce, it's one of the few beacons of Inferno power. While Mistresses are well and good with their Chain Shot, the damage is unfocused, and Succubi ranged attacks don't deal much damage anyway ...

Nightmare vs. Stallion - Probably Stallions. Extra damage from the aura and they'll deal that damage quite a bit in fights. More damage from physical attacks as well.

Lords vs. Spawns - not sure, haven't used them much yet. I'm leaning towards Spawns because they are high-level creatures and you want their damage, plus since they're within range of Expert Gating you can use the gated stacks better. Blade of Slaughter is pretty pathetic though, and no Fireball isn't attractive at all.

Arch Devils vs. Arch Demons - again not sure, haven't used them much either. Leaning towards Devils since it's going to be pretty hard to use Teleport Other (it's a level 7 unit's turn, and although I can see the skill used vs. Arcane Archers or something it'll be pretty hard indeed to get the Arch Demons to survive that long since they'll be one of the biggest targets).

3. Skill choice. Really don't know about this one. Tactics is really good to have early-game, but there isn't much else to want in Attack. Defense doesn't suit Inferno - it's an offensive race to swarm the other side after all, not defensive. Luck and Leadership are always good for Might armies, as is Enlightenment. The Gating skills - Swarming Gate, Swift Gating etc - are high priority of course. Mark of the Damned looks utterly useless, Hellfire + Consume Corpse is a good combo but takes your hero out of the battle entirely (no spells!).

With the other races I usually neglect War Machines and Enlightenment, perhaps I should get using them with Inferno.

4. Early battles. Inferno creatures are bad. All bad. They have to be, since Gating is so strong. No creature like Arcane Archers or Blood Furies to carry the entire army on their backs. But I was wrong about them being terrible at creeping. Casters wreck Inferno armies (as they do to almost all armies) and shooters are painful as well unless you have Tactics or Nightmares, but walkers can be easily dealt with using Gating. Not too shabby. The Deleb nerf hurts Inferno powercreeping of course but it doesn't destroy the race.

5. Late battles. This is why I want to play Inferno - Gating is just so powerful. You can, like, double the size of your army with Gating and the summoned stacks are expendable as well. Against another powerful hero though, Dark Magic is going to hurt (and chance to learn Light Magic is so low, too).

So ... looking for comments + ideas on how to play Inferno. I could reinvent the wheel, but it's always easier to learn from others ;)
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Postby Bandobras Took » Jun 13 2009, 13:48

Grok is bad (+10% movespeed at high levels, that's like Basic Logistics isn't it?).
Grok starts with a half-priced teleport spell. The logistics bonus is secondary.
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Postby Mirez » Jun 13 2009, 15:56

grok is my favorite inferno hero, creeping is just so easy with teleportation, besides I'm a big logistics fan, and his ability gives a great bonus
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Postby Banedon » Jun 15 2009, 6:25

I'll give Grok a try sometime, although I'm not sure how much he'd help since the creatures you most want to teleport are the Pit Spawns, and if you have them it's way past early-game.

I tried out a game against the AI yesterday, and drew the following conclusions:

1. GOD Inferno units are weak. If I hadn't taken Ballista I'd have been so far behind in development that the AI would've wiped the floor with me. The race has nothing against so many creatures - there was this battle against Elemental Gargoyles for instance, who could tank so many hits that I suffered some losses for it. Some losses won't be bad but almost everything causes some losses, which add up. When I stopped playing all I had were the level 4-7s because everything else got whittled down until they all died or grew so few to be irrelevant (7 Firehounds? *quizzical look*).

2. The race suffers so badly from resources. The sulphur and wood requirement on Firehounds and Nightmares hurt, with both creatures vital to the Inferno army. Gold is another problem. The Seducer dwelling and its upgrade just "happens" to cost a crippling amount of gold too. This game I reached level 7 units at the end of week 5, two full weeks behind my recent Sylvan run. Not good at all.

3. On the other hand, Gating remains as powerful as ever. In fact with Nymus (which I chose) it is just plain incredible: 7 Hell Stallions gate 8 Stallions(!). That more than doubles the size of the army. From this I'd conclude that when Inferno really needs to win a battle, it can, but against neutral stacks and less important fights it has a hard time preventing attrition.

4. Bit rethinking what I wrote as well. The first action Inferno's creatures are likely to do in a critical battle is gate. After gating you tend to want the gated creatures to arrive and preferably move before you commit the regular creatures. Swift Gating doesn't help much here. The other thing is that since you want gated creatures to arrive, you have nothing to do with Pit Spawns but wait or move slightly. The Lords might be better here - Fireball at least does something. But then my fights were against (really rather pitiful) AI armies so can't really conclude.

PS: LOL Blade of Slaughter >>>> the 350 Defender stack you get when defending a Fortress castle.

5. I went without magic the entire run. Definitely not a good idea. Light or Dark magic is imperative. Light would be great with all the weird damage ranges on Inferno creatures (1-4 Vermin go!). Too bad Light Magic is so hard to learn.

By the way Bandobras Took I just saw your Inferno guide and here's a quick question:
Urgash's Call is an extremely worthwhile Ultimate, made more so by the relaxed requirements introduced with Tribes of the East. With Urgash's Call, gated units arrive instantly instead of taking a full turn. By the time you actually get the ability, the uses should be fairly obvious. It requires Attack, Logistics, and Dark Magic, so it doesn't make a Demon Lord deviate too far from a strong build. An ultimate skill worth trying for if the game won't be decided by then.
OK so Urgash's Call, like most of the ultimate skills, is deadly. But I just don't see why you'd go for it. The number of skills required is, of course, a big drawback, but even bigger is what you're giving up for it. Just look at what you're giving up: Dark Magic without Master of Mind means you also give up on the two most powerful Dark Magic spells. Attack without Power of Speed and Tactics, Flaming Arrows without Ballista. What's the point?

I really don't see the purpose of buffing the hero attacks, because while they're OK when it comes to a serious battle your hero has much better things to do than attack (or use Mark of the Damned). With Master of Mind for example the two obvious things to start with are Mass Confusion and Mass Slow in either order, and two full turns into the fight much of it would've resolved already.

If it required Master of Mind instead of Master of Pain, maybe I'd sacrifice skills to Excruciating Strike et al, but with the way it is, I can't see myself going for Urgash's Call.
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Postby parcaleste » Jun 15 2009, 7:38

You CAN choose Ballista, you still have two "empty" slots left. I hadn't played multiplayer much, but here is what I am doing most of the times:
Go for the Ultimate, it IS sick and you still have Dark (which is GREAT), Logistics (helps a lot and esp. you have the Teleport Assault at the end of the chain), you also said Ballista, well, here you have the Flaming Arrows.

So, two slots left, what to choose? Leadership seems obvious: Recruitment -> Aura of Swiftness and Gate master (+20% gated units!).
The third one is totally depending, as Ballista is good (flaming Arrow), but if you get the chance of Light Magic or Enlightenment? But you play with Nymus, which means Logistics can be sacrificed. It will cripple you in the early game, but late? Still, Luck can compensate it. But Aura of Swiftness? You got this extra Tactics which goes for all of your units during the WHOLE battle and if you manage to upgrade your hounds you can run around the neutrals while crippling.
I usually try to upgrade creatures dwelling after I have built the Devil's, as Pit Spawns are like last in my list, even though I am most likely to built the fragile Nightmares in week 5 or so. In good building you can have the chance to build the Devils right after the Capitol/Castle buildings, right in week 3. Still, Sulfur (and Mercury :disagree: ) are pain in the ass to collect, but they are in any way, so...

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Postby Mirez » Jun 15 2009, 12:51

every time I play inferno I hope I can find a way to get my hero to learn mass divine strength, if he casts mass divine strength on expert level inferno units are suddenly the most deadly of em all, however getting light magic (and the light magic spells) is very hard playing inferno,
though it's still a good idea to get power of speed, mass haste on advanced level + mass slow on expert level (considering you take dark magic, which you should) is pretty deadly

and like you said, it's pretty hard for inferno NOT to suffer any losses, one word of advice I can give you is to ALWAYS have gated units take retaliations
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Postby Banedon » Jun 15 2009, 15:01

You CAN choose Ballista, you still have two "empty" slots left. I hadn't played multiplayer much, but here is what I am doing most of the times:
Go for the Ultimate, it IS sick and you still have Dark (which is GREAT), Logistics (helps a lot and esp. you have the Teleport Assault at the end of the chain), you also said Ballista, well, here you have the Flaming Arrows.
I'm looking at this from a multiplayer perspective, and you can't. A multiplayer hero might end the game around level 20. To get Urgash's Call with (say) Grok, you need exactly 21 skills. Even if you learn a few from witch huts, you still need ~19-20 skills, so unless you get perfect luck you can't have Ballista to go with the Flaming Arrows.

Another reason why getting the ultimate is unrealistic ...

You got for Devils before Pit Lords? Why?
and like you said, it's pretty hard for inferno NOT to suffer any losses, one word of advice I can give you is to ALWAYS have gated units take retaliations
Yeah that's great if you can do it, it's just that even then sometimes you might have to sacrifice. Eg. in the fight against the Elemental Gargoyles, if I waited with my Vermin the Elemental Gargoyles would still hit them, or they will act before my Vermin get to go again. It can be impossible to juggle the ATB bar until the ideal case of gated Vermin -> real Vermin x2, it might even be impossible. You just keep getting attritioned and attritioned until eventually you've got nothing left ... maybe I should get Demons?
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    Postby Mirez » Jun 15 2009, 20:26

    just thought up something, dunno if it'll work... fill up all empty slots with 1 imp or hell hound, and have them gate, so you get more retaliation food

    besides, inferno is a faction that CAN suffer some losses, in lategame vermin doesn't change the outcome of a battle, same goes for demons, leap is only usefull for blocking enemy archers
    besides I do never use hell hounds anyways, they die way to fast due retaliation, I always make sure I upgrade them on day1 to get those awsome firehounds

    also, my losses with inferno are A LOT lower when I play grokk and I can teleport so those can't have that 1 very painfull hit that halves your imps
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    Postby Bandobras Took » Jun 16 2009, 12:38

    Banedon: One vital change ToE made is that Mark of the Damned lasts until the battle's done. You'll lose half a turn for a free strong hero attack against that stack for each of its turns afterward. Provided you've buffed it out, it does a good job against a fast-acting enemy stack.

    As for Urgash's Call:
    After gating you tend to want the gated creatures to arrive and preferably move before you commit the regular creatures. Swift Gating doesn't help much here.
    I've always maintained that Ultimate Abilities are single-player goodies not meant for the multiplayer game. All my comments on an Ultimate Ability should be taken from that perspective.
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    Postby Banedon » Jun 16 2009, 14:50

    just thought up something, dunno if it'll work... fill up all empty slots with 1 imp or hell hound, and have them gate, so you get more retaliation food

    besides, inferno is a faction that CAN suffer some losses, in lategame vermin doesn't change the outcome of a battle, same goes for demons, leap is only usefull for blocking enemy archers
    besides I do never use hell hounds anyways, they die way to fast due retaliation, I always make sure I upgrade them on day1 to get those awsome firehounds
    I've always split Demons and stuff to have more Gated stacks - it's a vital resource. The Familiars and Vermin I mass in one stack because they're the shock troops in charge of dealing damage. More retaliation food yes ... you just can't stop the real units from taking damage.

    I think everything except Demons need to be conserved if possible. You want Familiars in the final battle(s) to pump the mana drained. Firehounds you need for early creeping and they deal OK damage later too. Seducers you need for Seduce, and everything else you need to deal damage with.
    Banedon: One vital change ToE made is that Mark of the Damned lasts until the battle's done. You'll lose half a turn for a free strong hero attack against that stack for each of its turns afterward. Provided you've buffed it out, it does a good job against a fast-acting enemy stack.
    It's a good point but if you use the Mark early you lose the more devastating Mass spells; using it late kinda negates most of its damage. Also, the units you most want to mark also tend to die the fastest - they are the most dangerous creatures on the battlefield after all.

    I'll give it a try in my next game against the AI regardless, I just don't have too high hopes.
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    Postby parcaleste » Jun 16 2009, 16:14

    I was just playing some Inferno and I thought how cool it would be if the (Arch) Devils/Demons swing with the... weapon (?) was able to hit the two squares in a row in front of them, not perpendicular like the Dragons one, but "horizontal". I think it would add to them, as they are "gasping" some against the other 7-th level tiers.

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    Postby Banedon » Jun 18 2009, 12:04

    I gave Groke + Mark of the Damned a try ...

    So first turn of the game I bought another hero and had 50 Vermin + 20 Demons, a great start :)
    Then after that I went off. Goblin Witch Doctors guarding a learning stone, I beat them. Conscripts guarding my Sawmill, I beat them. Skeleton Warriors guarding a treasure chest, I beat them. Stalkers guarding my Ore Pit, I beat them. Whoops, all my meat shields are dead. Buy a third hero! +29 Peasants and +8 Archers, not bad. Rot Zombies guarding my Gem mine, I beat them. Blood Furies guarding my Sulphur mine, I beat them. Doing great so far :)

    ... and then I look at my army and, like, wtf!? Only 27 Vermin left!? What the heck? I did not suffer overly heavy casualties in any single battle, and yet my army's dwindled until there aren't anymore stacks to attack. Dear me.

    /resign, and it's not one week into the game yet.

    Conclusions:

    1. Grok does no good. I only used Teleport once, to keep my Vermin stack from getting hit after they attacked a stack whose retaliation I'd already stolen. Even against ranged creatures you need Teleporting Assault to achieve something. They still have their melee attacks after all. Better than nothing, but not by a lot.
    2. Mark of the Damned would be so much better if it triggered every time that unit took damage. As it is you can pound a creature after its retaliation is absorbed but Grok doesn't join in. Also better than nothing, but not by a lot.
    3. Inferno needs a Ballista, or the race simply can't play fast enough to compare.
    I'm a hypocrite because I suggested that all life is sacred and should not be wasted without good reason.

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    Postby Bandobras Took » Jun 18 2009, 13:16

    I agree with point 3, generally.

    How many casualties were from the Blood Furies? I can't stand those things, but for the others you should only have lost demons, and that's their job anyway.
    Far too many people speak their minds without first verifying the quality of their source material.

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    Postby Banedon » Jun 18 2009, 14:24

    I agree with point 3, generally.

    How many casualties were from the Blood Furies? I can't stand those things, but for the others you should only have lost demons, and that's their job anyway.
    I think I lost some ~15 Vermin to the Blood Furies. And it's not so easy to only lose Demons. The Stalkers got some hits in, and since I was playing on Heroic, there were so many Skeleton Warriors and Rot Zombies that I had to let the Vermins take some hits = dead.

    I'm coming very close to concluding that Inferno just isn't my style. I need to get lucky and get War Machines -> Ballista early, or play Deleb (I still shirk at that thought - 120 damage Fireball late-game, seriously?), or play an easier difficulty (depends on pre-game agreement I guess), or just thrash the entire race and play something else.
    I'm a hypocrite because I suggested that all life is sacred and should not be wasted without good reason.


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