As I said in other threads, with H 5 the number of interesting games has reached H 2 level again for me - H 3 is a great game, but most maps are just a mop up after a certain point.
Will the ToE AI be less dumb??
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Jolly Joker
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Okay, very helpful.
I like RPG's, but when I play HoMM, I want a strategy game. I'm the kind of player who doesn't finish the campaigns on games of this kind; they just aren't interesting enough, and feel really artificial (not to mention annoyances such as hitting the maximum experience cap for the map when you're only halfway done with it). If I want an RPG, I'll play one--preferably one that can pay more attention to story and character development than is possible in the HoMM setting. The vast majority of all my HoMM 2 and 3 playing has been done on unscripted maps. Sure, I don't lose often, but medium-sized maps on the hardest difficulty level can be quite a challenge--and a challenge in which my strategic choices determine the outcome. I'm perfectly happy for the final battle to be anticlimactic if that's the result of my careful resource strangulation. If the main attraction is an Epic boss fight where the computer is going to have basically the same army no matter what I've done to cut his throat in the rest of the game, then what's the point of playing for hours?
And this whole idea of preventing AI heroes from fleeing on high difficulty level is just unbelievably asinine. "We can't GIVE the player wins on the Heroic level. Heroic heroes do not flee!" Uh huh. If that's the kind of strategic brain power calling the shots at Nival, it's no wonder the adventure-map AI is bad.
Thanks for the answers, gents.
I like RPG's, but when I play HoMM, I want a strategy game. I'm the kind of player who doesn't finish the campaigns on games of this kind; they just aren't interesting enough, and feel really artificial (not to mention annoyances such as hitting the maximum experience cap for the map when you're only halfway done with it). If I want an RPG, I'll play one--preferably one that can pay more attention to story and character development than is possible in the HoMM setting. The vast majority of all my HoMM 2 and 3 playing has been done on unscripted maps. Sure, I don't lose often, but medium-sized maps on the hardest difficulty level can be quite a challenge--and a challenge in which my strategic choices determine the outcome. I'm perfectly happy for the final battle to be anticlimactic if that's the result of my careful resource strangulation. If the main attraction is an Epic boss fight where the computer is going to have basically the same army no matter what I've done to cut his throat in the rest of the game, then what's the point of playing for hours?
And this whole idea of preventing AI heroes from fleeing on high difficulty level is just unbelievably asinine. "We can't GIVE the player wins on the Heroic level. Heroic heroes do not flee!" Uh huh. If that's the kind of strategic brain power calling the shots at Nival, it's no wonder the adventure-map AI is bad.
Thanks for the answers, gents.
That's quite a statement. I was under the impression that there were not that many H5 maps available.Jolly Joker wrote:As I said in other threads, with H 5 the number of interesting games has reached H 2 level again for me .
"What men are poets who can speak of Jupiter if he were like a man, but if he is an immense spinning sphere of methane and ammonia must be silent?" - Richard P. Feynman
So the question arises - will there be enough mapmakers, with good enough knowledge of scripting the AI, to turn out enough good maps to sustain the game?
"What men are poets who can speak of Jupiter if he were like a man, but if he is an immense spinning sphere of methane and ammonia must be silent?" - Richard P. Feynman
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PhoenixReborn
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http://www.maps4heroes.com/heroes5/maps.phpCorribus wrote:So the question arises - will there be enough mapmakers, with good enough knowledge of scripting the AI, to turn out enough good maps to sustain the game?
Granted some are duplicates/russian-english versions, and only a few have scripted events, but I haven't had any problems finding fun MP maps to play against the a.i. on. There's new ones every week.
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Jolly Joker
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Well, I don't know. My likings are probably a bit different from most.
In general I don't like single player maps that much, mainly because things are set, more or less. If I play the map again, it will play pretty much the same. Another thing is that SP maps often get the difficulty wrong or at least not to the point. So the only real reason to get to it is a good story and some nice ideas like they started to become over-abundant in H 3 where some maps were more like adventure games - cleverly hidden artifacts, blocking with ships and so on. Still, those make the point even clearer: those are one-time maps.
So I prefer simple so-called MP maps. I love maps like Dominion which are different, geographically for each player, maps you can play from each position - or even better with each alignment from each position.
On these maps there is no scripting, so it's just the raw AI. On the other hand those maps are not that difficult to make.
In general I don't like single player maps that much, mainly because things are set, more or less. If I play the map again, it will play pretty much the same. Another thing is that SP maps often get the difficulty wrong or at least not to the point. So the only real reason to get to it is a good story and some nice ideas like they started to become over-abundant in H 3 where some maps were more like adventure games - cleverly hidden artifacts, blocking with ships and so on. Still, those make the point even clearer: those are one-time maps.
So I prefer simple so-called MP maps. I love maps like Dominion which are different, geographically for each player, maps you can play from each position - or even better with each alignment from each position.
On these maps there is no scripting, so it's just the raw AI. On the other hand those maps are not that difficult to make.
They are if the AI sucks.Jolly Joker wrote:So I prefer simple so-called MP maps. I love maps like Dominion which are different, geographically for each player, maps you can play from each position - or even better with each alignment from each position.On these maps there is no scripting, so it's just the raw AI. On the other hand those maps are not that difficult to make.
"What men are poets who can speak of Jupiter if he were like a man, but if he is an immense spinning sphere of methane and ammonia must be silent?" - Richard P. Feynman
My personal preference is for "one-shot" or "two-shot" types of maps. Once I play a map for a few times [in general] there's not really much of a reason to play with too many other factions or positions because you basically know the layout & everything else you need to know about the map.
With "one shot" maps the map maker has the ability [if used] to control many more aspects of the game than what you'd see on a "balanced, MP, free-for-all map".
Unfortunately the map editor doesn't seem very user friendly and, as such, there aren't tons of the maps out there that I'd prefer to play. In addition I haven't really bothered to learn a new programming language so I can take other people's good, but raw, maps and add in events/scripting for the AI that would make it play better [for me].
With "one shot" maps the map maker has the ability [if used] to control many more aspects of the game than what you'd see on a "balanced, MP, free-for-all map".
Unfortunately the map editor doesn't seem very user friendly and, as such, there aren't tons of the maps out there that I'd prefer to play. In addition I haven't really bothered to learn a new programming language so I can take other people's good, but raw, maps and add in events/scripting for the AI that would make it play better [for me].
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Jolly Joker
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Yeah, but it doesn't suck - not for me, at least.Corribus wrote:They are if the AI sucks.Jolly Joker wrote:So I prefer simple so-called MP maps. I love maps like Dominion which are different, geographically for each player, maps you can play from each position - or even better with each alignment from each position.On these maps there is no scripting, so it's just the raw AI. On the other hand those maps are not that difficult to make.
I was just saying "If". As you have said, my perceptions of the H5 AI may be biased because I've only played campaign maps, which may include scripts that dictate AI behavior.
"What men are poets who can speak of Jupiter if he were like a man, but if he is an immense spinning sphere of methane and ammonia must be silent?" - Richard P. Feynman
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Apocalypse
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Gaidal Cain
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And compared with H4, there is no open battle AI in H5 either. In H4, creatures knew that it usually payed off trying to round slow wlakers in order to get to shooters the next round...Jolly Joker wrote: Compared with H 5 there is no battle AI in H 3.
You don't want to make enemies in Nuclear Engineering. -- T. Pratchett
I don't know... I think the H5 battle AI is good about targeting back-row units. Although it does have a tendency to specifically target units which I feel are less important... like the blood maidens. it goes after them like nothing else.
"What men are poets who can speak of Jupiter if he were like a man, but if he is an immense spinning sphere of methane and ammonia must be silent?" - Richard P. Feynman
What is "trying to round slow walkers ..." mean?Gaidal Cain wrote:And compared with H4, there is no open battle AI in H5 either. In H4, creatures knew that it usually payed off trying to round slow wlakers in order to get to shooters the next round...Jolly Joker wrote: Compared with H 5 there is no battle AI in H 3.
IMHO the H5 battle AI isn't too bad with the exception that it doesn't use special abilities well ....
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Gaidal Cain
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In HoMM 4 there's also "guard radius" in battles. Meaning your movement is vastly hindered when trying to get through between two enemy troops close to each other.
Concerning Heroes 4, AI had to endure all the bugs in initial release, especially Fountain of Youth recyrcle bug; types of bugs I haven't faced for long time. Problem was (and propably still is) in difficulty settings of the game, which makes custom maps practically necessity for challenging game. And H4 AI has to actually explore map (trait which it seems to overvalue over capturing mines objects a bit ). It uses decently Fog of War to escape its troops and doesn't neglect caravans either (once it escaped town I was approaching thanks to caravans).
Actually I think I'm going to make a test map that shows AI development in larger scale with different conditions in Heroes 4 (without scripts).
When comparing AI's (upgraded) H4 is like adorable child (or fool if you prefer) that makes some clever things sometimes while H5 is a cheating jerk with lifespan of two months. Combat AI's are decent in both, though siege does leave much to hope for.
Concerning Heroes 4, AI had to endure all the bugs in initial release, especially Fountain of Youth recyrcle bug; types of bugs I haven't faced for long time. Problem was (and propably still is) in difficulty settings of the game, which makes custom maps practically necessity for challenging game. And H4 AI has to actually explore map (trait which it seems to overvalue over capturing mines objects a bit ). It uses decently Fog of War to escape its troops and doesn't neglect caravans either (once it escaped town I was approaching thanks to caravans).
Actually I think I'm going to make a test map that shows AI development in larger scale with different conditions in Heroes 4 (without scripts).
When comparing AI's (upgraded) H4 is like adorable child (or fool if you prefer) that makes some clever things sometimes while H5 is a cheating jerk with lifespan of two months. Combat AI's are decent in both, though siege does leave much to hope for.
Thundermaps
"Death must be impartial. I must sever my ties, lest I shield my kin."
"Death must be impartial. I must sever my ties, lest I shield my kin."
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MistWeaver
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I see what you mean now and yes H5 is terrible about that. I thought that behaviour was supposed to be updated during a patch though?????Gaidal Cain wrote:It means that when engaged in Melee, it doesn't try to go around and attack it from the back one round in order to be able to go for the archers the next one.
Interesting thread. In a "H6" thread a few months ago, I argued that I'd much prefer H6 just to work better/have better AI than a million new monsters/towns (that would just make the AI dumber) and got shotdown.Romanov77 wrote:I have 1024 mb of ram which is MORE THAN ENOUGH to run this game as I can run much better games (about graphics and AI) perfectly.
Since reading the thread I upgraded from 1GB RAM to 2 and it makes a world of difference.
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