Planning to Buy ‘Tribes of the East?’

[ThunderTitan]

If you ideal of graphic qualiy is Heroes 4 I start to understand where our different perspectives start.

I have trouble recalling a game where artwork was so ugly as in HOMM4.

You're confusing graphics with art... H4 still looks good, even if most of the creatures have a crappy design.


@JJ

H4 had interesting gameplay, they just never had enough man-power to make it work, as 3DO was going bankrupt. H5 wasn't plagued by those problems and it's gameplay isn't very impressive, even if it does have some interesting parts.

"the Gargoyle is original"

"And I for one just LOVE the Gargoyles. Why? They are original"

[MistWeaver]

What a ridiculous post!
STYLE? WELL THOUGHT-OUT GAMEPLAY?
Boy, if that's your standards that indeed every kindergarden painting is art. H 4 has some of the worst in graphics I've ever seen.

Stay calm. Yes you got it right. H4 has best gameplay mechanics in the series. Its deep and thought-out. I like every of its innovations to HoMM. And I still enjoy playing it. Both single and multiplayer. And H5 had bored me after few month. (+ one week ofter I got HoF)
Because its global map gameplay is a HoMM3 bad done rip off.

As for art in H4, I agree that some monsters are pretty bad done. When I was saying "has art style" - that didnt mean that it has best art. That meant that all art in the game is stick to sinlgle style. (unlike H5)
And as for global map art - I really find it best in HoMM games so far.

And by the way, there ARE valid criteria for what art is or should be, but that's completely irrelevant here. Art isn't trivial (or better, if it's trivial it can'zt be art), and these things are trivial firt and foremost. As was said, we are not talking about Michelangelo here.
It get's clearer when you compare the music score. Music is art as well as graphics, but no one would have the idea to compare a music score of a computer game with, say, a classic opera or something.

I dont unterstand why you think that artwork value can be estimated only if it is some famous painting hanging on the wall. Thats rediculous.

Art is the use of skill and imagination in the creation of aesthetic objects, environments, or experiences that can be shared with others (c) Britannica Online
There is no diffrence if some great artist will paint a painting for some exhibition, or will keep this image just for game.

Stop considering art like something far and abstruse. Its not.

And, oh, yeah. You have to LIKE it. Whether it's freaking art or not and ESPECIALLY if it's trivial. And I for one just LOVE the Gargoyles. Why? They are original (not the usual gothic-style clichés); they are in keeping with the town theme (coherent); it's well done with lots of interesting details and stuff.

Yes, its nice initiative of Nival to make it diffrent, but in the process they forgot what is a gargoyle. And there is some history behind that image, its not just stone-like figure. And definitely not stone-like figure with stupid(funny) fly-moves.

Contrary to that I dislike the Treants. Why? They are a rush job that had to be done due to legal difficulties with the initial design (which obviously means it wasn't original enough).

Thats something I agree with. Treants probably even worse that gargoyles

[Wolfsburg]

This graphic comparison is too subjective (I'm talking in general), because I for one can't believe some say the Warcraft 3 graphics are good (some even mistake the WoW graphics with NWN). Just look at the trees and see how childish they are in WC3.

Agreed. Main reason why I didnt purchase WoW. There is still much to be done in graphic developing.

You know what I think would be a great improvement in a future patch? Since HOMM2 I enjoy appreciating the enviroment of each city, and how it slowly develops, and how nice is the background music... In HOMM5 this active flying camera in the cities was in my opinion a great feature, as the whole mobile-zooming camera for the users. It is very cool to enjoy the music whle exploring the many dimensions from each city. BUT, unfortunately the menus are all there blocking the view and sometimes making it hard to access some structures. Simple suggestion: developing a toggle function, like the ones in the general panoama screen. Where the user can temporarily minimize the creature and city pannels, to better enjoy the view.

[MistWeaver]

If you ideal of graphic qualiy is Heroes 4 I start to understand where our different perspectives start.

JJ did not get my position on H4 art. And you didnt even tried.

If I came to you and said that your model of a perfect dragon is kitchy and that the dragon drawn by the child is beautiful, you couldnt possibly ever find an argument to make that less legitimate. You can though say that, the first one was drawn by someone with more hability, it is more complex and it is more realistic. BUT, if I find it ugly as hell, there is no way to say that is a wrong opinion.

My goal was just to show you obvious thing that you've denied - There are criteras that define bad artwork from good.
JJ however thinks that its only about paintings and stuff like that.

Everything has its beauty but not everyone sees it.
Confucius (551 BC - 479 BC)

And whats the beauty in the pile of bullcrap, for example ?

[Wolfsburg]

And whats the beauty in the pile of bullcrap, for example ?

1- I have a photo of one where a butterfly landed. It looks beautiful.

2 - I can be used to make the things in Sylvan grow.

3 - If feeds and shelters the beatles.

JJ did not get my position on H4 art. And you didnt even tried.

There is no position to get. I simply disagree with any possible variant in this suject. And based on my beliefs concerning art (and design, and fan sketches...) its waste of time to discuss.

AMbout HOMM4 = My turn!
I personally think that the Behemots look like disproportionate teddy bears that just came out of the washing machine. The Berserkers look like hippies who came out of a costume store and just bought themselves a caveman costume. The devils look like characters from Mad Max with bad sunburns. All the two legged creatures walk like they have crapped themselves...

It goes on an on![/quote]

[MistWeaver]

1- I have a photo of one where a butterfly landed. It looks beautiful.
2 - I can be used to make the things in Sylvan grow.
3 - If feeds and shelters the beatles.

If you agree with that quote than talk straight, and stop dodging.
I was asking just about visual part of pile of bullcrap. Not butterflies, not ways how it can be used, nor what it can feed.
Imagine a photograph, if that would save us time.

There is no position to get. I simply disagree with any possible variant in this suject.

But wait, you are the guy who accepts works as art when its

praised by the majority of people

and you have no other criterias for that.
So.. how many praises will reverse your opinion ?

[Wolfsburg]

If you agree with that quote than talk straight, and stop dodging.

Gosh, guess you never heard of comic relief. That was the so called joke. Your way to make your points is, beeing rude and aggressive. My way is beeing polite, logical and sometimes friendly.

And boy, slowly it comes to me there is no point trying to share my point of view with you. You disagree with it and your way to oppose its getting not only preddictable but repetitive. I feel that I am learning less with the each new argument. And that makes debating slowly lose its objectve.

What I meant (I´ll try for a last time), is: art, bullcrap and everything on the face of the planet is object of evaluation from humans. The tool that we use to evaluate such objects, our perception of beauty, its a individual feature.

It is not possible to say: MistWeaver has a much better perception of whats beautiful than Wolfsburg. Because there would be:

1 - No universal standart to define whats is beautiful and whats not
2 - No imparcial judge
3 - No objective what so ever

But wait, you are the guy who accepts works as art when its
...
praised by the majority of people

Distorting what I say is even a worse way to argument. I sayed I didnt like Picasso, even when its praised by the majority of people.

Ill try giving you the chance to expose your ideas:

My goal was just to show you obvious thing that you've denied - There are criteras that define bad artwork from good.

1- Who defines these criterias?
2 - Which criterias are those?
3 - What happens to people who do not happen to agree with those criterias?
4 - When a miserable woman from the landowner dominated northeast of Brazil, that didnt have any education or contact with art points to bullcrap and says: hey, that looks beautiful in its own way! Can we say that she is wrong?
5 - (=1) Who judges that?

[vulnevia]

I probably wont buy it, since my graphic card wasn't so happy about me getting HoF...

[Campaigner]

Vulnevia: Buy a new card then :p

Here's a list

[MistWeaver]

Distorting what I say is even a worse way to argument. I sayed I didnt like Picasso, even when its praised by the majority of people.

I did not distored anything. I would like you to be more attentive in future. You know, saying false things because of that is not polite nor logical and neither friendly.

So.. there was to accept and not to like. Thats because you accept Picasso as an icon/worthy artist /whatever just because many people do so.
So my question was about: would you treat H4 art in same way, if many ppl would praise it?

Your way to make your points is, beeing rude and aggressive.

Im sorry if "crap" example was too rude for you, I was trying to say that I dont agree with Confucius and thus - with you. And instead of answer I get misplaced jokes.

Beauty - is (very basically) aesthetically pleasing. And there are many things in our lives that are unpleasant, loathsome, disturbing, sorrowful, etc. to anyone (excepting ppl with really damaged brains. Maybe that what that quote is about?). I could make you some dreadful examples, but Im sure you got the point.

Ill try giving you the chance to expose your ideas:

1- Who defines these criterias?
2 - Which criterias are those?
3 - What happens to people who do not happen to agree with those criterias?
4 - When a miserable woman from the landowner dominated northeast of Brazil, that didnt have any education or contact with art points to bullcrap and says: hey, that looks beautiful in its own way! Can we say that she is wrong?

1. People that know .. or understand the principles of particular area.
For example magazine that dedicated to heavy music - there work critics that know much about styles, play technics, studio sound engineering, mixing etc .. Yes, their opinion will be subjective on some %, but still, far more valuable and trustworthy than opinion of 14 years old metalhead.

2. That depents on its .. purpose. Lets say for video game artwork that will be: the maintenance/expression of overall game atmosphere/style, originality, technic, correspondence with shape it represents.
3. If they work as artists in comp. game company - they'll be fired.
4. Yes. Just take more shaking example. So, if she's pointing on aborted foetus - yes we can. And how do you think ?


EDIT:

One more thing, about TotE addon. You ppl who like H5 "visual side" You really like this too ?
http://resources.ubi.com/resources/65/6 ... cement.jpg
Just curious.

[ThunderTitan]

1- Who defines these criterias?
2 - Which criterias are those?
3 - What happens to people who do not happen to agree with those criterias?
4 - When a miserable woman from the landowner dominated northeast of Brazil, that didnt have any education or contact with art points to bullcrap and says: hey, that looks beautiful in its own way! Can we say that she is wrong?
5 - (=1) Who judges that?

That can apply to gameplay too. Everything is subjective until you define a criteria to measure it.

[Wolfsburg]

I've reached it last year while playing demo. So you are late.

Good for youuu

Buy yourself an explanatory dictionary and save us from your further ravings

Forget about dictionary, it looks you cant read anyway.

Im surely not saying that you are rude because of the word crap, my friend. As you can see above while debating you can be: prepotent, agressive, sarcastic and mean.

Dont take me wrong, those characteristics make excelent debaters. The trouble is, they must make their point quickly, because the audience eventually get tired of this rhythm and tone.

I prefer not to use offense. Even when my opponents have a completely inverse opinion to my beliefs. I prefer to let them speak with relative freedom and hopefuly learn something from it. I know what you may be thinking: gosh, its just a friggin' game. But I think that debating (specially in other languages) requires constant practice, even with the most trivial subjects. Because once the subject is big and bad, you will have no time to learn.

So my question was about: would you treat H4 art in same way, if many ppl would praise it?

That´s a fabulous question. I think my relation to it would be the same towards Picasso. I personally dislike it but accept it is a hit. (I really cant see how that makes me a subordinate of the system). I would still say that I dislike the art, when asked. And probably (thats one personal characteristic of mine) avoid entering a place crowded of Picasso fans and say: now look, THAT painting deserves to be used as toilet paper!

Just take more shaking example. So, if she's pointing on aborted foetus - yes we can. And how do you think ?

This point will be even harder to expose. You see, in my conception beauty relates in no form to ethic. An example of that: one friend of mine (medic, respectable, decent and socially engaged) thinks that the march of the nazis was beautiful. What does he mean with that? He surely doesnt mean the nazis used to think beautiful, or did beautiful thinks. He only means, the thing they did with their legs looked beautiful.

That is an ability that not many have: to be able to separate beauty from ethics. That can make you a genie, or a very perverse creature.

But even in that case, I would be able to understand someone who finds a aborted foetus beautiful, despite of the condition who brought an end to his lifespark. Even when that represents he/she may be acting unethically.

I can stop immediatly if this is getting to philosophycal and/or boring.

[vulnevia]

Vulnevia: Buy a new card then :p

Here's a list

Acctually I can play Hof now, just had to upgrade the drivers a second time. Now i only have a problem with the sound if I alt + tab to much

Soooo, maybe I'll get the new expansion after all...

[Apocalypse]

One more thing, about TotE addon. You ppl who like H5 "visual side" You really like this too ?

As 'barbarians' they don't look that bad, but I was hoping for 'real' orcs (green skinned and uglier)

[ThunderTitan]

An example of that: one friend of mine (medic, respectable, decent and socially engaged) thinks that the march of the nazis was beautiful.

And they thought Hitler was a good orator... he shouted like a retard and was all into phallic imagery... i found him ridiculous when i was 14 and it had nothing to do with ethics. Here's an interesting take on that: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Iron_Dream

"Indeed, in the book Hitler seems to assume that masses of men in fetishistic uniforms marching in precise displays and displaying phallic gestures and paraphernalia will have a powerful appeal to ordinary human beings. Feric Jaggar comes to power in Heldon through little more than a grotesque series of increasingly grandiose phallic displays. This is undoubtedly phallic fetishism on the part of the author, since the alternative conclusion is to accept the ridiculous notion that an entire nation would throw itself at the feet of a leader simply on the basis of mass displays of public fetishism, orgies of blatant phallic symbolism, and mass rallies enlivened with torchlight and rabid oratory. Obviously, such a mass national psychosis could never occur in the real world..." pg 249

There's a reason why the word BAD TASTE exists.

If you really find dung beautiful you'd better have one hell of a reason to convince me that you don't have awful tastes.

[Jolly Joker]

Umm, that quote is from an IMAGINARY afterword to a second edition of Hitler's fantasy book. It's pure satire because the IMAGINARY author of that afterword is very obviously wrong.

[ThunderTitan]

Jeez, can't you read?

There's a reason why the word BAD TASTE exists.

Yes, ridiculous things do work... and some people like crap.

[MistWeaver]

you can be: prepotent, agressive, sarcastic and mean.

Oh.. Im so sorry, but that usualy happens when someone calls me "pseudo-messia" because of my point on smth. A point of customer btw.
And the dictionry is for you to find out what "messia" means.
And the "cant read" is about you arrogating to me something I didnt wrote.
And the last quote is not even to you.

I prefer not to use offense.

Yeah ..right

This point will be even harder to expose. You see, in my conception beauty relates in no form to ethic.
...
But even in that case, I would be able to understand someone who finds a aborted foetus beautiful, despite of the condition who brought an end to his lifespark. Even when that represents he/she may be acting unethically.

Jeez.. fella, forget about ethic part in this, but, did you ever saw aborted foetus ? Or mutilated corpses ? Or results of heavey burns ?
If you able to understand someone who finds this beautiful, I dont think I want to talk to you any longer.

I can stop immediatly if this is getting to philosophycal and/or boring.

That has nothing to do with both. But you better stop.

[MistWeaver]

As 'barbarians' they don't look that bad

Yeah, esspesially that guy with parsley on his head. Probably Nival took him from their canced game based on "Il Romanzo di Cipollino" or smth..

ps: I really think Nival should reject all orc creatures art, and hire someone with sence.
I dont like most of current art in H5, but that is simlpy disagreeable

[Jolly Joker]

Jeez, can't you read?

There's a reason why the word BAD TASTE exists.

Yes, ridiculous things do work... and some people like crap.

I actually read the whole book - I even cited it in another thread here. It's a satire on bad fantasy - which is most fantasy. "Bad taste" is something the author of this book, Norman Spinrad, is accusing most fantasy readers of. That book hasn't much to do with fascism, but all the more with fantasy.