Unfair Hostility to Heroes 5 and Nival >.<

[Jolly Joker]

The way you describe it people would have AT LEAST as much reason to point on American companies. Arrogant world dominators waving with the almighty dollar cash roll. Wouldn't THAT reflect on people(s)'s mentality as well then?
My opinion here is, that all this stuff abour Russian and ex-commies and whatnot is silly rubbish not worth even reacting to. The WoG team? Russians. Equilibris? Russians. The enthusiastically greeted new approach to "King's Bounty"? Russians. All ex-commie crap and useless, then, since we know what we have to expect to from them.
No, the nation or country has nothing to so with it. They either get their things done or not. For me it simply looks like Nival simply overstreteched their resources in some areas and are lagging behind. They are obviously still out to deliver a finished product - eventually. Proof for this is the completely revised Necromancy system - they were not forced to change it, after all that system way used for a couple of iterations of the game, but they still did.
I think mainly, that the game was published half a year too early. Middle November 06 for the main game and then May 07 the first expansion.

[ThunderTitan]

The way you describe it people would have AT LEAST as much reason to point on American companies. Arrogant world dominators waving with the almighty dollar cash roll. Wouldn't THAT reflect on people(s)'s mentality as well then?

Actually it would.

[tekeeee]

What does Nival have to do with the fact that communist Russia dominated parts of Eastern Europe until 1989?

Well, now that you asked, it actually does - at least a very little bit. When you were a world power for more than 100 years, dominating lots of other small countries, you develop a certain kind of ego, which reflects somehow in the mentality of that population. If you don't believe me, maybe you should travel more (to the East) and try to get to know the people better.


My post was therefore an attempt of explaining tekeeee why do so many people have a negative attitude towards Nival, and why do some link it to the fact that they are Russians.

You can't deny the qualities and the flaws of a certain nation. The only thing that you shouldn't do, is to assume from the start that anybody belonging to that nation has those qualities and flaws.

When I saw the first H5 screenshots in the spring of 2005, I thought Ubi's choice for Nival couldn't have been better, as I know Russians can be very creative. Nobody can deny their contributions to the world art & culture (whether we're talking about literature, music, balley or any other form of art). Later on however, when I saw how arrogant they treat us during the beta, like we didn't matter or at times like we didn't even exist... I had a sad deja-vú of how Russians used to treat the "small countries" under their influence in the last 100 years. Sth like "don't dare say anything but praise us, as whatever else you say - you're wrong - we know better". You must remember very well that attitude, whether you want to admit it now or not.

Of course it's not nice to be biased towards people because of their ethnic origin. But if the Holocaust would have ended in '89 only, and today we would have had a Germany still largely proud of their past and still thinking they are entitled to rule at least half of the world, then don't blame me too much if I would have been a bit prejudiced towards you just because you are German. Just as many are today prejudiced towards Iraqis and other Middle Eastern countries, seeing in each of them a potential terrorist.

Our job is to work on our prejudices... but that's not enough to solve all problems. It's also the nation in question that has to change itself from inside, and then prove itself to the world that their past is dead and buried. Just like Germany did - and they have all my respect.

1. Maybe later I will compare Soviet Russia to America and the similarities in their practices, only America is praised for them . THat Analogy PERFECTLY describes America

2 . Thank you very much for explaining, no this is not sarcastic I am sincere:)

3. Not *All* Russian will make a perfect Heroes game

4. Why was there a deja-vu of Communism then? If that is the case I am constantly getting a Deja-VU of failures in history by Americans
And besides most problems people had with were with the publishers Ubisoft, like fans were outraged when they made all their games had Starforce protection on them, and fans were made at Spellforce makers when they announced that STarforce was to be their protection software, it was of course not the makers fault but the publishers,


5. I do not see any reason for all Russian to repent for their government that they had virtually no say in anyways, besides communism developed social justices that in a Capitalist society would have not been considered, Womens Rights workers rights blah blah blah, they developed Equality and it has greatly benefitted the world, there is no reason to be ashamed of their country.

[tekeeee]

I think mainly, that the game was published half a year too early. Middle November 06 for the main game and then May 07 the first expansion.

Exactly it should not have been made at that time, but the game was *published* a year and a half too early, I think the blame should rest with Ubisoft

[Zamolxis]

The way you describe it people would have AT LEAST as much reason to point on American companies. Arrogant world dominators waving with the almighty dollar cash roll. Wouldn't THAT reflect on people(s)'s mentality as well then?

To some extent I agree with you on that. I'm not at all a fan of the Americans when it comes what the greed of some of them for power and money can do (see Lord of War, The Corporation, or the sad "live show" called The War in Iraq). But I also admire their qualities, same as with the Russians. Their way of trying to dominate is however more subtle, hence maybe not so bothering. They take their share although they might not deserve it, but still leave you with some of it - and with some freedom (which under Communism does not really exist). As someone who has lived under both Communism & Capitalism enough time to compare, I can tell you Communism is still worse (which of course people associate it with the countries where it came from).

The WoG team? Russians. Equilibris? Russians. The enthusiastically greeted new approach to "King's Bounty"? Russians.

Did I ever say I'm not appreciating their potential, their talent? The success of WoG, Equilibris and hopefully soon KB, is due to the fact that they were created by Heroes lovers. H5 was unfortunately created by Warhammer lovers, who on top of that were quite arrogant towards us during the developing process.

No, the nation or country has nothing to so with it.

Still can't fully agree with that. Suppose the game would have been developed in any western country. You can be sure the PR dpt plus the almost "innate" diplomacy almost anybody in the West has (sort-of-speek, it's actually the education and social system) would have taken care of a way better relation with the community.

Look at Ubi. They are at least half responsible for semi-failure of the game: the bad voice acting, the bad storyline (I know you liked it, but I told you back then the public won't - and "history" proved I was right), the fact that they didn't take care in time Nival is "on schedule" with every step of the developing process, but they did rush the release before the game was ready, some game sounds which were worse than the Nival ones and some game concepts which were probably baked at Ubi. But people don't blame Ubi as much as Nival. Why? The better PR in general, plus Fabrice in particular, who knew very well how to handle the community - while at Nival's side there was nobody to do that (shortly they had that Larisa IIRC, who had a bit of potential to become popular, but screwed some things up herself, which made her unpopular at Ubival - so she got fired).

...They are obviously still out to deliver a finished product - eventually...
I think mainly, that the game was published half a year too early. Middle November 06 for the main game and then May 07 the first expansion.

With that I fully agree. And you remember I've said it back then as well.

[Zamolxis]

And besides most problems people had with were with the publishers Ubisoft, like fans were outraged when they made all their games had Starforce protection on them,...

Just to tease you on this, who created Starforce?

Now, joke aside, I'm happy we're fine and you didn't misinterprete my post in any way.

I agree with you some analogies match also America. While same as Russians what they did was all for expaning their domination and control (if you want), people praise them though because when they came, they only freed the countries from the Germans, without occupying any territory. And then they had the Marshall plan, which helped Western Europe recover reasonably fast after the war, which created the premisses of the life-style and economies we have today here. People don't praise Russia in Eastern Europe, because when they came to free them from Germans, the occupied Estonia, Letonia and Lithuania fully, half of Poland and a quarter of Romania and Slovakia (the unfortunate countries which were closest to them). Instead of a Marshall-like plan, they brought the "Soviet" plan, imposing Communist Governments against the will of the people, taking all private properties from the people, forcing all peasants to give away their farms (land+cattle), prison & death to those who opposed, massive deportations, mass poverty, censorship and the list may go on. Almost 20 years after the fall of the Communism, some of those countries are still far from catching up with the West European countries.

I know this might be a cold shower as opposed to what you might have learned in school, but I hope you can go over it and we can still be friends.

You should NOT be ashamed of your country. I did not say that. I am also proud of my country. But that does not stop me from still being ashamed of - and never denying - the fact my country was part of the holocaust for example. 300 to 600.000 Jews were killed by the Nazis in my country, with our pro-Nazi government doing nothing against. It's a shame that - this might some weird - I bare with pride (pride of the fact that we so got over it, that we are not afraid of admitting it and do not dare trying to deny it or minimize it). It's a shame that I bear to wash away the fears of any Jew that I would ever do to them what some of my grandparents did.

As long as the country denies the wrong it has done, it will never manage to earn the trust, friendship and love of its victims.

I don't have a problem trusting and loving a Russian, because I make the effort of seeing them as people, regardless of their government, and I make the effort of getting to know them as they are as person, without judging them for what their parents did. For that reason any Russian I ever knew, also became a friend of mine. But I can't expect that from everyone else. For some people it's not that easy to dissociate the person from the country he/she somehow represents. For these people it's the Russians who have to make the first step and try to win their friendship, not just demand it.

"If you don't like me, then you have a problem." - this mentality does not help.
"Let's see what actually bothers him about me and if I can do sth about it." - this has a higher chance of success.

Cheers,
Zam.

[Alamar]

I think mainly, that the game was published half a year too early. Middle November 06 for the main game and then May 07 the first expansion.

I agree [almost 100%]. If there would have been a November 06 release for the initial game with a July 07 release for HoF [with a March 08 release for TotE] I can't begin to think of how good this game could be.

Pretty much all the "gripes" I have with the game could be fixed with a combination of time and good feedback from testers.

[ThunderTitan]

Pretty much all the "gripes" I have with the game could be fixed with a combination of time and good feedback from testers.

Oh, so your gripe is only with the technological part and not with the concept of the HoMM series....

[Alamar]

Pretty much all the "gripes" I have with the game could be fixed with a combination of time and good feedback from testers.

Oh, so your gripe is only with the technological part and not with the concept of the HoMM series....

If I had a problem with the concept of the HoMM series I wouldn't have loved HoMM1 - HoMM3. ...

I do have some gripes that I believe go to design issues & lack of testing but I think that with added time those things could have been fixed.

[ThunderTitan]

If I had a problem with the concept of the HoMM series I wouldn't have loved HoMM1 - HoMM3. ...

Oh really....

[Zamolxis]

Oh, so your gripe is only with the technological part and not with the concept of the HoMM series....

If I had a problem with the concept of the HoMM series I wouldn't have loved HoMM1 - HoMM3. ...

I am not sure what TT meant by that, but I do see in your reply you didn't mention H4. And the thing is some people do have a problem with the concept of games like H4 and H5, which although very different from each other, both go at some point against the original concept of H1-2-3, the games which built up the Heroes universe and the fan base, on which Ubi counts to suck as much money as possible, without bothering enough to offer them what's expected.

[Alamar]

I don't have a problem with the concept of HoMM5. I do think that its actual implementation leaves much to be desired.

Because some posters obviously know me better than I know myself I'd like to see something that I've said in the past that somehow I don't like the "concept" of HoMM. Also answer the question of why I'd be a fan of HoMM if I didn't like the concept???

As for leaving out HoMM4 I honestly think that HoMM5 is in the mold of HoMM1-HoMM3 and has very little to do with HoMM4.

As for HoMM4 itself that game was incomplete and [for much of development] was woefully understaffed & underfunded so we got what "3DO" paid for .. which was not much. Just like HoMM5, HoMM 4 was released way before its time and suffers greatly [in my personal estimation] for it.

Devil's Advocate: HoMM4 did have many good ideas. I would argue that HoMM4's skill system was easily the best of any HoMM at that time. The magic system I would also argue lent itself very well to making each town have its own flavour and may be superior to HoMM5's. The map editor was fairly easy to use and was quite powerful .... The maps generated lent itself well to story / RPG maps which I also like.

In short. HoMM1 through HoMM3 rock. HoMM4 was released before its time and never properly balanced / finished by 3DO [and suffers for it]. HoMM5 was also released before its time and so far Nival looks spread too thin to be able to address the issues that I most care about so it also suffers in my estimation.

I'd be happy to discuss point & counterpoint if someone had something more constructive to say than rolling their eyes.

===========================================

I think what MIGHT have drawn TT's wrath is that I dared agree with a point JJ happenned to mention. Oh the humanity

Of course if I'm mistaken then I'm willing to hear an explanation.

[ThunderTitan]

Of course if I'm mistaken then I'm willing to hear an explanation.

As soon as i'll stop laughing.

[tekeeee]

And besides most problems people had with were with the publishers Ubisoft, like fans were outraged when they made all their games had Starforce protection on them,...

Just to tease you on this, who created Starforce?




I know this might be a cold shower as opposed to what you might have learned in school, but I hope you can go over it and we can still be friends.


Cheers,
Zam.

Russians duh, they can be sluggish sometimes but it is very popular and strong protection that is apparently trusted by many and hated by community,

Nah I think the constant Pro-Capitalist anti-communist "everyone is forced to dress the same and be poor" education is much worse, I think *you* have more to learn beyond the lies of greed
But if I was to ask former Soviet states whether they would like to return to communism they would say no,
Most people think of the USSR or the People's Republic of China when you say communism. They are wrong. That is a wonderful combination between Socialism and Fascism, yes, but Communism? Not so much.

Communism is basically the final step of politics, the end of parties and ruling classes and the beginning of true equality. It means the end of the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer.

So the next time someone says "Communism" you should probably reply with a hearty, "Yes please!"

American *Diplomatic Education* is pretty bad especially if you can pass assignments in in *internet speak* and be basically illiterate, just to tease you search up America's current Ambassodor to UN John Bolton , after he was unable to gain senate confirmation he was appointed by Buush-Cheny to be ambassador to UN (WHY?) apparently to " begin repairing our damaged relations with the rest of the world" under it's unofficail motto "F*** YOU"

- In 2001 Bolton effecitvely torpedoed a UN treaty regulating international traffic in small arms (vital to terrorism and drug-trafficking) by invoking America's "CULtural tradition of huntin and sport-shooting"
- Pressed for war in Iraq but against any Peace-Keeping or Rebuilding according to member of Boltons Team "get the hell out immedieatly" (which would have left Islamist Radicals and pro-Saddam Baathists in charge of much of the country"
-Tried to fire intelligence analysts that wouldn't stretch the truth on Iraqi weapons programs
-In other displays of finesse he was removed from delegation to North Korea after he called the country's tyrannical dictator a tyrannical dictaor at the start of delicate disarmament talks

(I think this shows just how *honest* and un-western some Americans can be?)

Opps sorry if it kinda goes off-topic there and if it was pointless especially if you are not American I just wanted to show how much pride/love there is in Europe and that America drools (Just the average American of course, if you see nothing wrong with being modest then you are way far from average)

Be happy that soon there willl be new chance for Heroes after they finish last expansion, besides anything would've been better then EA games





Besides ThunderTitan I do not understand what he is talking about it is very unclear!

[Alamar]

Of course if I'm mistaken then I'm willing to hear an explanation.

As soon as i'll stop laughing.

Ah the enlightening response that I expected. Well I've been put in my place

==============================================

Should you want to make insightful comments please let me know.

[Mytical]

Ok I won't get into the whole thing about Americans, I am one and I think people see us wrong just as some on here think people see Russia wrong. Lets clear the air a little. I do not dislike Ubi or Nivel because they are Russian, to be truthful, I could care less about them either way. I am not a fanatical fan or a rabid hater of anything Ubi or Nivel. HoMM 5 is not a bad game, but badly done. Concept wise it was above average, result wise .... eh not so much. Bugs, glitches, balance issues, the 'lets have so many dragons people see them in their dreams' approach...(it is not Dragons of Might and Magic people). All those is what drove down my personal score of this game. Yes I have played since HoMM I. I am a 'old timer', does that mean I don't matter any more? Both teams so far have been fubling the ball, pure and simple. Lets see if they can recover it and go for the goal?

[ThunderTitan]

Russians duh, they can be sluggish sometimes but it is very popular and strong protection that is apparently trusted by many and hated by community,

Yeah, no one's ever played a cracked SF game ever....

Be happy that soon there willl be new chance for Heroes after they finish last expansion, besides anything would've been better then EA games

Sh*t is still sh*t, even if it's not the worst sh*t.

America drools (Just the average American of course, if you see nothing wrong with being modest then you are way far from average)

Besides ThunderTitan I do not understand what he is talking about it is very unclear!

Looks like average americans aren't the only ones that drool.

Ah the enlightening response that I expected.

I really can't take you out of the cave if you're still chained with your back to the fire, can I.

[Alamar]

Ah the enlightening response that I expected.

I really can't take you out of the cave if you're still chained with your back to the fire, can I.

Feel free to come into the cave with some bolt cutters ...

May I ask though [grunting from fireside] why you are even bothering?

[ThunderTitan]

May I ask though [grunting from fireside] why you are even bothering?

Look to the left.

[Zamolxis]

Be happy that soon there willl be new chance for Heroes after they finish last expansion, besides anything would've been better then EA games

Sh*t is still sh*t, even if it's not the worst sh*t.

That's what I'm also talking about sometimes, and I don't understand people replying to me with: "be happy it's not worse". This mentality will lead us to having Game developers getting rich by producing bad games - which people buy because "others are worse" - which will implicitly lead to larger and larger numbers of frustrated gamers, spending half of their time modding (or browsing the net for mods, begging programmers on forums to fix this or that), instead of just enjoying.

50 bucks is just too much for the half-finnished products they are throwing today on the market. If we buy them as they are, we just encourage them to go on like this.