Despite the AI, I now like H5 better than H3! (a confession)

[WretchedGnu]

ok, so when the game came out I was one of those who immediately condemned it and put it on the shelf because I ran into some very stupid AI behavior in one of the scenarios.

I still think it's unforgivable that the developers spent so much more time and energy on the graphics than on a good AI. But after playing a few maps again recently, I haven't noticed the strategic AI stupidities so much -- but that may be because I sort of deliberately shade my eyes from it -- and the tactical/battle-AI has actually been decent overall -- despite the constant early fleeing, even when the opposing hero could at least have hurt my army badly by staying on to fight; and despite one instance of the computer torching his own men with an area-effect spell...

And as much as I loved H3, the new skill system really is better. But the major thing, for me, is the initiative bar. That thing really allows for tactical strategy in a way that is pretty much impossible in H3. I know it was theoretically possible in H3 to work out which creature would move in which order -- but that process would be so tedious I can't imagine anyone actually doing it. H3 battles were much more a matter of "shooting from the hip" -- whereas in H5, you can really lay out a tactical plan. To me, that's just an enormous rock on the H5 side of the scale.

And I have to say that, despite my early complaints about navigating the overland map in H5... I actually kind of like it now. I've tweaked things on my laptop so that I can have most of the pretty stuff on, but have no stuttering and delay when I move the map around.

Nevertheless: I still think that one of the most important (and easy!) things they have to do is create a separate "iconic" map that you can switch to when you need basic information about the map as a whole (where the resources and artifacts are, etc) -- just like H3 had. Like a good "Kingdom Overview" screen, this would bee so simple to implement.

It is one of the terrible sins of H5: that it calls itself a strategy game, but puts these issues of information accessibility so low on its priority list.

Lastly: I just converted most of the H3 music tracks to .ogg, and replaced most of the H5 music files. When I can play H5 and still hear the old "Combat02" from the old game... it'll be hard for me to go back!

[winterfate]

Betrayer! Heresy! H3 forever!

Nah, just kidding...
Seriously though, I believe H5 can overtake H3. It's going to require a LOT of effort on Nival's part though. H5 has several things going for it, but IMO, it needs to get better.

[WretchedGnu]

Betrayer! Heresy! H3 forever!

Nah, just kidding...
Seriously though, I believe H5 can overtake H3. It's going to require a LOT of effort on Nival's part though. H5 has several things going for it, but IMO, it needs to get better.

yeah... I wouldn't be surprised if I change my mind later because I run into some really stupid AI behavior again. That's the #1 issue for me because I don't play multiplayer...

[ThunderTitan]

Seriously though, I believe H5 can overtake H3.

Sure it can... just like a Dacia Logan can overtake an old Ferrari if you install jet engines on it.

[winterfate]

Touché.

So you agree with me now?
Catchy trend!

I only said it was possible. I don't think it's likely though...not at the rate Nival's going...

[TheUndeadKing]

This is probably just me, but I didn't like the new initiative system and that initiative bar. Sure, that bar is quite useful and fits well in H5, but it took away the "surprise" element to a certain extent. In previous games there were some times when I couldn't guess who would take the next turn (in combat), thus the outcome used to be something I didn't expect. This could result in either a good thing or a total disaster, so it used to make me think more carefully and expect the "unexpected".

[Elvin]

What..? In all previous games you could guess. Even in the case of same speed units if you had played a bit. What was unexpected was the extra action due to good morale

[jeff]

This is not a surprising revelation, since H-V is little more than and H-III update. The fact it has taken this long to replace H-III and in only a small number of H-III fans is probably the biggest statement of failure of H-V as a whole. Now H-V on its own properly patched in the future can be a very good game in its own right. But when you update a classic, then you set a bar that is difficult to meet in the eyes of the classic’s fans and sadly in that aspect H-V fails. Let’s see how the drama created by Nival’s patches play out, will we get a map editor that people (not geeks only) can use, will we see the nagging problems that seem to survive every patch finally be fixed and can Nival finally stop alienating the modders. Oh the excitement, oh the concern, will the hero survive this installment, will we finally achieve a happy ending. Stay tuned same time same place next version 1.5.

[ThunderTitan]

This is not a surprising revelation, since H-V is little more than and H-III update. With half the stuff missing.

QFT.

[TheUndeadKing]

What..? In all previous games you could guess. Even in the case of same speed units if you had played a bit. What was unexpected was the extra action due to good morale

Yes, but still, there were times (albeit rare) when you were not 100% certain. And there is no initiative bar in previous games, which means "good morale" would likely surprise you, just like you mentioned. In H5, "good morale" is not that powerful, and you can see its effects immediately on the bar (and thus get prepared).

The only surprise element in H5 is "luck", and that can be a gamebreaker in certain situations.

[Anonymous]

This is not a surprising revelation, since H-V is little more than and H-III update. With half the stuff missing.

QFT.

True but they are not done patching/expanding it yet. Well I don't think they are done. yet

[ThunderTitan]

Oh, you meant H3 Complete..... my bad.

[Caradoc]

I know this is not the popular position, but I think Heroes IV was the best.

[Akul]

I agree that H5 beats H3 in every way besides in AI (tough they promised the better update soon(TM)).

Still, I like H4 the best

[Jolly Joker]

Strange position to complain about the AI in V when you like IV best.

[Metathron]

Well I don't thing there are done. yet

Hey, look everyone, Jeff forgot to speak properly. Then again, he is very much in character seeing how this is the forum for Heroes of Might and Magic V.

I know this is not the popular position, but I think Heroes IV was the best.

I agree fully and completely, though I would put it side by side with HoMM II.

[Akul]

Strange position to complain about the AI in V when you like IV best.

So? I see AI as a minor disturbance. I play fan made maps in which mapmakers take care of dumb AI.

[jeff]

Strange position to complain about the AI in V when you like IV best.

I agree with Sauron in fan made H-IV maps it could be compensated for to a large degree and Equilibris helps, in H-V many of us can’t even use the editor let alone compensate for its AI.

[WretchedGnu]

I can see why really hardcore players prefer H3 to H5, even aside from the AI issue. As somebody said above, there's just a lot more stuff available to H3.

But although I'm a big strategy game fan, I never have much time to play any one game much. I felt like I played H3 a lot, but I only got one expansion, and didn't even finish that campaign. I only played half of the non-campaign scenarios. I don't make maps or play multiplayer. So for a guy like me, the improvements in H5 are pretty significant and I don't really notice what it's missing -- except for that yawning chasm of the AI. When I'm not forced to notice that hole, I stand by my thread...

[ThunderTitan]

Not what i was referring to, but whatever...