Something Worrying to think about

The new Heroes games produced by Ubisoft. Please specify which game you are referring to in your post.

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Something Worrying to think about

Postby jeff » Feb 24 2007, 22:32

This was posted on the official forum by Datachasm
im seriously considering selling my homm5 set before the price drops...

apparently there are issues with 2.1 balance, so 1.5, being so late, is now gonna put support 2 months behind HoF.

im starting to think the support cycle for the game is fubar... so 1.5 in a month, 2 months later 2.2, 2 months later 1.6, then it gets worse: they release an expansion.

so then, already apparently over their heads and bogged down with the shoddy implementation of homm5 and its expansion 1, we will have 3 versions to muck it up.

so then what? 1.6, 2.2, and 3.0? 3-4 months per patch per version?


I believe most of us that have the expansion were dismayed by the fact that you had to disk swap to play the original campaigns, and not have HOF programmed to play them the way 3DO allowed the expansions to be backwardly compatible. Also once you patched the expansion you need not worry about the earlier versions. When the third expansion is released two things could happen neither of which is acceptable. One you now deal with patching up to three games, or Nival no longer supports 1 or both of the earlier editions. Hopefully they will take a higher road an incorporate compatibility into the next expansion so maintaining three versions will not be necessary, yeah right. :loll:
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Postby winterfate » Feb 24 2007, 22:37

This whole patching business is getting nasty... 8|

My last "news interview" (in the Campfire thread, not a real interview...it's a mock interview to entertain) poked a little fun at Nival...but I feel I must now poke harder :D.

Or, we could give up and adopt Nival's motto...
Patching eternal!!!

I really think we shouldn't though.
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Postby okrane » Feb 24 2007, 22:47

Honestly, I have never seen a game that after so many patches is still so bugged. And what is worse is that patches introduce bugs: like the runes no longer working in 2.1 - and that;s a serious one.

It comes to proove that they are really low standard programmers, that do a very sloppy job. Frankly, they do not diserve to see a cent, and they should go bankrupt...

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Postby theGryphon » Feb 25 2007, 0:11

(Lack of) Compatibility is a big issue. I don't understand their policy here. Probably it's not a result of bad policy but bad programming. In any case, there's something seriously broken.

Patching is a good thing, if implemented effectively that is. With the fact that we encounter new bugs after each patch, I'm confident that Nival team did a bad bad job in their programming the game.

Another clue in this direction is the weird organization of the data folder. There are so many unused files, items here and there, and inconsistencies in naming, grouping, sorting, etc. It's such a mess.

Good programming means scalability, compatibility, leanness and good documentation, not to mention that it should work. I don't see any of these in HOMM5.

These are without taking into account the (lack of) quality of AI...
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Postby jeff » Feb 25 2007, 14:38

To clarify my point, obviously Nival/UBI are going to have to produce multiple patches, as not everyone will buy all or any of the expansions and those people deserve support. What my point is each expansion needs to be backwardly compatible so the only patch you really need is the one for the latest version you bought. If you wish to patch all versions fine, but once I bought Winds of War, I never used my H-IV disc or my Gathering Storm disc again, except when installing the games on a new computer. That is the way this game needs to go, and not force everyone to patch everything. :yes:
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Postby addicted » Feb 26 2007, 0:38

jeff wrote:To clarify my point, obviously Nival/UBI are going to have to produce multiple patches, as not everyone will buy all or any of the expansions and those people deserve support. What my point is each expansion needs to be backwardly compatible so the only patch you really need is the one for the latest version you bought. If you wish to patch all versions fine, but once I bought Winds of War, I never used my H-IV disc or my Gathering Storm disc again, except when installing the games on a new computer. That is the way this game needs to go, and not force everyone to patch everything. :yes:


I couldn't agree more! :tsup: Just think, if Nival/UBI continues down this path and if they make it to 2 or 3 more expansions, how many different patches we'd have to download! Yuck! :vomit:
And to add to this, I really feel the map editor ought to be menu driven like H-4 so us non-programmers can create maps (my opinion and of course everyone has a right to my opinion! (kidding :lol: )
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Postby Campaigner » Feb 26 2007, 15:44

I wonder why they don't make a patch that automatically updates to the latest version. But isn't autoupdater working anymore? Since that is the very easist. One click and you're set. (Ofcourse you can find better download sites but then it's your own fault if you get the wrong patch).

Actually Relic (creator of Warhammer 40.000 Dawn of War with its expansions Winter Assault and Dark Crusade and the other RTS Company of Heroes) did the same thing in Dawn of War where you had to download each consecutive patch. From v.1.0 to v.1.1 to v.1.2 to v.1.3 to v.1.4 to v.1.41....
Now I think they've improved though but it's still goes to show that even 1st class developers can do a bad job every now and then. (And I haven't even begun to talk about bugs and balance yet :S)

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Postby Starbatron » Feb 26 2007, 16:20

As far as managing the bugs and patching in this game, I don't think it will improve any time soon (if at all). I think the format for the patching is inherant in the overall programming and organization of the files in general and can't be fixed very easily at this point in time. I think our best hope is that Ubival learned from this experience and will approach HoMM VI with all the "common sense" ideas we've been discussing here... :devious:

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Postby Elvin » Feb 26 2007, 16:49

Common...sense..? A long forgotten trait that used to be plentiful once upon a time.
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Postby ThunderTitan » Feb 26 2007, 19:23

Campaigner wrote:Actually Relic (creator of Warhammer 40.000 Dawn of War with its expansions Winter Assault and Dark Crusade and the other RTS Company of Heroes) did the same thing in Dawn of War where you had to download each consecutive patch. From v.1.0 to v.1.1 to v.1.2 to v.1.3 to v.1.4 to v.1.41....
Now I think they've improved though but it's still goes to show that even 1st class developers can do a bad job every now and then. (And I haven't even begun to talk about bugs and balance yet :S)


Yeah, i belive that's more of a tehnical thing, as more and more games do that. But they could make a 1.0 to 1.x direct patch besides the normal ones as far as i know, it would just take more space.


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Postby jeff » Feb 26 2007, 20:54

addicted wrote: And to add to this, I really feel the map editor ought to be menu driven like H-4 so us non-programmers can create maps (my opinion and of course everyone has a right to my opinion! (kidding :lol: )

I have your opinion. :tsup: I am currently working on an Equilibris map and I have developed in parallel a storyline compatible with the H-V item set, but I'll never use the H-V editor in its current form. :tsdown:
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Postby Alamar » Feb 27 2007, 0:52

Perhaps it's time for a fan-lead map editor project similar to the fan-lead documentation projects.

Let's face it ... someone has to do it and I haven't heard UBI / Nival mention this as a deliverable in any near-term patches.

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Postby Starbatron » Feb 27 2007, 18:29

If I knew more about programming, I would offer to help, but I definitely want to second the motion. If Ubival won't give us one, perhaps it is time we take matters into our own hands... :yes:

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Postby jeff » Feb 27 2007, 21:36

I'm all for it, but I can't even imagine the how difficult it would be, especially since they cannot even create fully compatible expansions.
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Postby Mytical » Feb 28 2007, 10:20

Well I have been avoiding any forums but Campfire and Heretics for awhile now. Don't get me wrong HoF was deffinately an improvement on the original h5. Still it seems that they take 1 step up and 20 back. It is my sincere hope they sell the HoMM franchise. Maybe to blizzard. They seem to get more right then wrong. Heck at this juncture even EA is looking good. I have nothing against Nival or Ubi, but they just seem to have missed this one. By a country mile.
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Postby Starbatron » Feb 28 2007, 15:00

I am curious how Blizzard would create a HoMM game...if only we could have that opportunity... :thinking:

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Postby Mytical » Mar 3 2007, 11:09

It would probably be more energetic that is for sure. As much as I have gotten sick of some of Blizzards game, it took me many many years to get to that point. So far everything Blizzard touches turns to Platinum (heck with gold).
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Postby okrane » Mar 3 2007, 12:07

Mytical wrote:It would probably be more energetic that is for sure. As much as I have gotten sick of some of Blizzards game, it took me many many years to get to that point. So far everything Blizzard touches turns to Platinum (heck with gold).



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