Necromany changes in 2.1 (take a seat: you'll need it)

[val-gaav]

One question JJ .... If I fight with Horned Overseers will I be ofered a choice of raising zombies from them or will it just happen ....

I'm asking because it's pretty important for somebody who does not want to spend DE on zombies ...... Are we given a choice ?

BTW if necromancy is so nerfed then are there some changes in the demand for ore/mercury in their town ?

[EDIT]

For the system itself lets do some calculations :

a 5 week play (one month , I think a normal MP game somewhere like a one month) ....

200 points + 400 + 400 + 400 +400 =1800 points total
this gives :

1800/2 = 900 skeletons
1800/3 = 600 archers
1800/12 = 150 spectres
1800/50 36 liches

One can see that the numbers are still pretty nice , though the DE and raising diffrent creatures may make it hard to mass one big stack of one unit type ...

As for Haven if the top limit is 20 then it's still ridiculous

It depennds on cash but once you have it ... let's say in week 5 you can convert 20 priests into 20 cavaliers ...... It's still Imba to me ... If necro gets different DE points (higher for stronger units) then why Haven has a benefit here ? It should be restricted ... If one can train 20 marksman from 20 peasants then next level :
10 archers to 10 squires
5 squires into 5 clerics
3 clerics into 3 cavaliers

[Jolly Joker]

You always get a choice. I had a very interesting pick when I faced a stack of Hell Hounds and they came with one stack of Cerberi. After the battle I got offered a window like meeting a hero or something offering me 11 Ghosts and 4 spectres. I could then pick (I picked the 11 Ghosts and since I didn't have the DE for 4 Spectres I was able to split them and could raise 3 of them.
You can decline of course. Raining is not forced in any way.

Now, one thing is already clear: Necromancy has NOT been nerfed in any way. Instead, since Mark of the Necro is available early on, it got way more interesting, but you still don't need to visit your home town. My personal opinion is that Necromancy just got stronger. A lot. They did not change the resource demands, but you can battle a lot very early.

Btw, I just raised my first Vampires. 12 from a stack of 38 basic Succubi. The basic Vampire costs 20 plus a bit points to raise, by the way. Awesome. What creatures you raise depends, though.
Basic level 2 Dwarves gave basic Zombies. Blood Maidens gave Skeletons. Succubi Vampires. Deep Hydras Spectres. Druids Liches. Hell Hounds Ghosts, Cerberi Spectres. Defenders and Shield Guards both Plague Zombies. Very strange.

[val-gaav]

Thanks for the reply .... I like the changes they give more strategy to this game (palnning on how to use up the DE in this week, what to fight etc.).... As for nerf ... well It is a nerf, though mark of necromancer gives some nice mana for raise dead spell but the fact is just looking at numbers necro has a limit and it's a good thing IMHO.

Btw, I just raised my first Vampires. 12 from a stack of 38 basic Succubi. The basic Vampire costs 20 plus a bit points to raise, by the way. Awesome. What creatures you raise depends, though.
Basic level 2 Dwarves gave basic Zombies. Blood Maidens gave Skeletons. Succubi Vampires. Deep Hydras Spectres. Druids Liches. Hell Hounds Ghosts, Cerberi Spectres. Defenders and Shield Guards both Plague Zombies. Very strange.

that makes me wonder if the transformer building will work the same way If not then it would not make a sense ....

[Jolly Joker]

Yes, I just raised my first Phantom Dragon out of Blackies. Cost is 156 points of DE for that.
It looks a bit like raising is something like a combination of what the creatures are and their levels. For example, animal-like creatures seem to be Ghosts or Spectres, no matter what. Just don't know what will raise a wight or wraith, yet.

[val-gaav]

Just don't know what will raise a wight or wraith, yet.

Maybe some non dragon 7 level ???like Archdevils, Angels, Titans ?

[Jolly Joker]

And, yes, you can raise Wraiths and Wights as well.
Genies don't raise anything either, by the way. Interesting. It makes Academy a real pain because there are so many creatures you can't use (I haven't fought Titans and Rakshasas, so I don't know about them).

More DE points cost
Zombie: 4
Arch Lich: 62, I think
Wight: 88 1/2 or so
Wraith: 111 or so.

Your army will decidedly look different now. What was formerly a mass of skeletons is now a mass of low level creatures. I play the Rise to Power map on hard currently and being in week 6 my army consists of 335 Archers, 251 Plague Zombies, 187 Spectres (there is outside level 2 and 3 dwelling and I have Haunted Mines as well) and 80 Vamp Lords. I have an assortment of higher level creatures as well raised, for example 3 raised Phantom Dragons and 2 dozen Liches, but I feel I don't really need them.
In these quantities both Spectres and Plague Zombies are a nightmare, by the way. Plague Zombies are not a target you want to waste any attack power on, but 250 will seriously hurt and they are very durable. The spectres, well. It's hit or miss, but even with a hit. once they reach a certain number the retaliation is no joke anymore. Lastly, the 80 Vamp Lords, well.

I'll stop this now because I know enough. Play of Necropolis got WAY more interesting. I think that they have become more powerful, even with the cap of DE. The fcombination of raising creatures on the fly, having the raise dead spell and playing around with Mark of the Necro is extremely powerful - more powerful than raising unlimited skeletons. You don't need Frenzy so badly now, for example.

I have no idea whether Necro is balanced now. The amount of raising looks good. If anything is to be adjusted now it might be done with the Raise Dead spell and Mark of the Necro (i.e. how much spell points gained with how much damage with MotN and much much can be raised with Raise Dead, whether it should be a starting spell and so on).

[Elvin]

One last thing: Was mark of the necromancer substituted with something else in the dark magic abilities?

[Amis]

Btw, I just raised my first Vampires. 12 from a stack of 38 basic Succubi. The basic Vampire costs 20 plus a bit points to raise, by the way. Awesome. What creatures you raise depends, though.
Basic level 2 Dwarves gave basic Zombies. Blood Maidens gave Skeletons. Succubi Vampires. Deep Hydras Spectres. Druids Liches. Hell Hounds Ghosts, Cerberi Spectres. Defenders and Shield Guards both Plague Zombies. Very strange.

Do you know if there are any difference between raising Skeletons from Blood Maidens and Imps (I presume that Imps give skeletons)? Since Imps are easier to kill, I think it could be cheaper to raise Skeletons from BMs, or are the prices always the same in when raising, for example, Zombies?

[Odish]

I Have 2 question:
1. Do u need to go back to town to refill your DE?
2. The fact that u raise upgraded/unupgraded creatures, doesn't it mean you'll run out of space for them? Do you need to constantly go back and forth from your castle to upgrade the creatures so you'll have room for all 7 tiers?

[Jolly Joker]

I didn't see any other Dark Magic ability.
The prices in DE are always the same no matter from what you raise.
You don't need to go back to town to "refill" DE.
And, yes, careful creature management is necessary: it's possible you don't have the slots to raise anything - but that would be bad management then.

[Kilop]

ok that is great, but .. if you make a quick comparison, how much more wraith per week can you get, is it like haven because it seems more ...

[PhoenixReborn]

Patch 1.5: Rise of the Zombies.

I appreciate that JJ is giving us this advance information. We'll all know soon enough on tuesday.

I've always thought the necromancer was 'cheap' ever since H2. This isn't improving my opinion.

[Roman]

This change sounds absolutely awesome - I love it and hope it works out as well as it sounds!

[Jolly Joker]

Somewhere along the lines of nearing level 20 you'll be able to raise 4 Wraiths a week. 4 Wights will be possible earlier. However, you'll be able to get 20 Vampires - if you find the right creatures, that is.
In the end, it looks like you'll get the low level creatures first - and you'll have to "waste" DE for them simply bacause DE not spent at the end of a week is lost. After that you'll get higher ones - but here upgraded or not comes into the equation.
Still it allows a lot of different army building options - and it requires attack planning.

[UncleJJ]

I Have 2 question:
1. Do u need to go back to town to refill your DE?
2. The fact that u raise upgraded/unupgraded creatures, doesn't it mean you'll run out of space for them? Do you need to constantly go back and forth from your castle to upgrade the creatures so you'll have room for all 7 tiers?

I guess you can use another secondary hero to carry the unwanted troops. I used to do that when Diplomacy let you pick up loads on troops in H3

[ThunderTitan]

and you'll have to "waste" DE for them simply bacause DE not spent at the end of a week is lost.

Well that suckz... just think how cool it would have been to wait it out and then triple your army against that big neutral stack near your enemy's castle.

[Kilop]

hmmm thx JJ, that sure does sound interressant for necros ...
But that seems too so overpowered! I couldn t image nathir with 300 ghosts week 2 ...
I mean this is actually a buff to nec town right ?
And counterstrike/artefacts that are still so weak.
Well it will become at last challenging to play haven

[Jolly Joker]

You'll have to show me the math that gives you 300 Ghosts in week 2.
Spectres have raising cost of 12+ DE. Ghosts I didn't check specifically, but it should be around 9. This would give you 20 or maybe 22 Ghosts in week 1 if you could put all your DE in Ghosts - which is pretty unrealistic. Not even Necro can start with attacks on level 3 creatures stacks on any given map.
If you manage to build the Pillar of Bones in week 1 you may just be able to raise another, well, say for the sake of the argument, 40. That is, again, if you find them.

[Alamar]

Thanks for the updates JJ!!!

I was hoping, even though I like Necros, that they would be reduced in power in the map types & difficulty that I play on.

Either way I still say the change will spark new interest in the game [at least for me] and there is a good mechanism to effect balance changes if needed!!

[Akul]

Nice changes, I mus say

Hopefully, Ubival will make other factions also more interesting.