Dwarven Strategy (work in progress)

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Dwarven Strategy (work in progress)

Postby Mytical » Jan 21 2007, 10:29

Ok I am working on the Fortress Strategy, and would like some input ("Input....need more input!" Johnny 5). This may take me a few days to get down, so bear with me. First lets look at skills, and the fact that there are very very few bad choices.

The Dwarves seem built to counter their enemies. This is not more evident then the Magic Skills available to them. Lets start their first.

Light Magic - Since they are more defensive based this is a great skill to have. Take Master of Abdure (mass deflect missile and endurence) and their defenses help vs ranged tremendously. Add Eternal Light, and not only can these spells not be dispelled, they can not be countered by dark spells (or so it seems this may change). Since that leaves you with an open slot you can choose between Master of Blessing or Master of Wrath since you don't need cleansing (or so it seems) with eternal light, I would go with Master of Wrath. Haste and Rightous Might? Their weak attack gets some boost, as do their slower units. Seems designed to counter Wizards (dispell) or any town that uses Dark Magic.

Dark Magic - Since you don't get the spells often in the mage school this one is deffinately behind Light Magic or Destruction magic as a magic school. However, if you can get the spells you can weaken your enemies further. Shrug Darkness is great vs necros and any other heroes that tend to use Dark Magic.

Destruction - If you get fireball and armeggeddon the Master of fire/Ignite/mana burst combo is very useful. Mana burst seems designed to take down casting creatures, so has limited use, but still not useless Take Master of Storms or Ice instead if you would rather. If you don't get fireball the ignite is pretty much useless...unless you also do summoning and get wall of fire. Also, Summoning can make Destruction devestating to Inferno.

Summoning - If you go runic armor (free Arcane armor spell and +4 spellpower for that spell), and Exorcism it can become very useful even if you never find a summons spell. Still a little narrow in focus, so would reconsider getting this. Seems designed to work with Destruction to take down Inferno.

Sorcery - Would really reconsider taking this skill, but again not useless. Especially facing towns that cast a lot. Arcane Training reduces casting cost, and Distract really irritates casters...

Attack - Helps allieviate some of the low attack rating this town gets. With Tactics, Offensive Formation, and Retribution (which really relies on leadership!) it can be a very dangerous skill to take. Deffinately would not take this against Dungeon though..even with Distract.

Def - Well they are a defensive race, and 30% less damage never hurts. Protection (reduced damage from magic) is helpful since you will want them close together but Preparation might just make up for this. Retal before you are damaged is pretty good skill to have.

Luck - With magic resistance (15%) and dwarven luck (15%) you get 30% magic resistance, good vs wizards..and the ability to do double damage on occasion. Not bad..but as hard as it is to say this (and I can't believe I am) there are some better skills (especially skill combos) out there.

Leadership (pretty much a must with either Attack or Def). Diplomacy is not the greatest skill, and runic attunement and empathy can actually harm you. Not sure this skill is the best way to go.

Logistics - This may be the best skill there is for the dwarves. You get the ability to travel farther, even not use movement points up for Resources and other things, and your hero starts battle with an initiative bonus.

Enlightenment - The new eagle's eye isn't as useful, but Tap Rune (get mana back for casting runes) and Mentor (give other dwarven heroes free exp) seems very useful. Just wish they would have chosen something like Mana Regen as the path instead.

War Machines - this skill is of low importance. Tripple balista and runic machines just are not the best skills here. I would go with Balista, Catapult, and Tent instead if taking this.

Refresh Rune - Very useful skill, it allows you to reuse runes you have already used.

Fine Rune - A chance to use runes without using resources. Don't see why anybody would not take this.

Greater Rune - The only thing going for it is that it is needed for some of the skills. Tripple the cost makes it very hard to use otherwise. Some rune combos as terrific hower. Make sure if you need a skill it leads to to take it, otherwise it can be ignored.

Absolute Protection - Not very difficult to get to, and you don't really give up much to get it. Your enemy always getting bad luck is very worth it to go for also.

Well that is my take on skills, next up will be Heroes, Creatures (and their uses), and a few other things. Tell me what ya think.

Edit : took out some personal remarks.
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Postby Pol » Jan 21 2007, 11:06

Edit : took out some personal remarks.


Why? That's what makes the taste ;)
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Postby Mytical » Jan 21 2007, 11:08

Well I want to put as unbiased opinon as I can (though some does remain) first, then add the spice in. Besides, I am trying to make a walkthrough for the Fortress and I believe walkthroughs should be as unbiased as possible.
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Postby Pol » Jan 21 2007, 11:20

Hmm, you may added them as footnotes or such, just to differ main, strictly informative and objective part, from yours subjective, but eagerly expected, insights.
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Postby Lord Zeus » Jan 21 2007, 11:26

My opinion is that the Dwarves are very versatile. They have lots of skill configurations that work great against specific tows, also the almost even 20/30/30/20 atribute prob. make them suited for both might and magic.
Now while most skills can be chosen to counter certain towns I feel that Logistics->Pathfinding->Snatch->Swift Mind is almost a must also
Defense->Protection->Defensive Formation->Preparation. The problem with Logistics is that it's a 2% skill so it may be hard to get.
Regardless, with those two skills the other three should be map+opponent specific.
vs. Dungeon: Luck->Magic Resistence->Dwarven Luck gives a good chance to block their spells, Soldier's Luck makes those Blood Furies half as effective
vs. Necropolis: Dark Magic->Master of Curses->Shrug Darkness
vs. Inferno: Summoning+Destructive for Exorsism+Ignite to use against gated creatures.
vs. Academy: Luck->Magic Resistence->Dwarven Luck gives a good chance to block their spells, and maybe Sorcery->Arcane Training->Distract to prevent them form casting lost of spells.
vs. Haven: Ledership->Diplomacy->Runic Attunement to try to match their morale
vs. Sylvan: no idea. :)

PS: How does Brand's specialty work?
Fine rune gives 50% chance for free rune.
Brand starts with 20%+1% per level.
Does that mean that at level 30 he has 50%+50%=100% chance or does he have 50%*150%=75%?
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Postby Mytical » Jan 21 2007, 11:33

Yes I agree they can set up to counter a lot of the towns effectively. I am still confused on some of the specials of the creatures..I know I seen them explained somewhere..can somebody link me this?
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Postby Lord Zeus » Jan 21 2007, 11:46

Here is a list of creatures and their abilities.

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Re: Dwarven Strategy (work in progress)

Postby Elvin » Jan 21 2007, 12:02

A fine start B-) My thoughts...

As of lately I've been playing random maps but even fan maps almost always have an utopia/pyramid etc for you to find spells so even if you don't get fireball you'll get armageddon from the adventure map. I try to invest on destructive early and take abilities after I've built a bit my mage guild. Armageddon helped me take out Laszlo in the campaign who had a large army. It's worth it against might types especially if you have fire dragons and dwarven luck :devious:

Arcane armour is amazing but you'd need to cast it with exp summoning to reduce 50% of the damage. A lot of lvls and better left for larger maps.

I love retribution but looking at the skills I doubt I'll ever take it with the dwarves...A shame.

I always take defensive formation from defence so that even if you are charged you can reduce the damage. But preparation...It needs you to defend for it to work. I took it once and used it less that 2 times because it benefited me more to attack. Also vitality is good in earlygame both for the added hp and for adding to the chance of abilities triggering(a little of course).

Luck. I asked Sfidanza and it seems that dwarven luck works like soldier's luck: If the resistance fails you are offered another chance for 15%. Soldier's luck remains a must.

Warmachines is not that bad but it requires 6 lvls...Otherwise it helps a lot with creeping and facing enemy heroes. It can't reach the potential of destructive with ignite but it's a sure bet which is even better with luck. Not good for larger maps.

Greater rune is very good. I always take fine rune first ;) but after some time being able to use a rune twice is too much of a bonus. And later on you'll probably have more resources than you'd need.
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Postby Jolly Joker » Jan 21 2007, 12:14

Providing some facts, that some may really been expectant to know:

Changes in Dwarven building requirements:
Four buildings have undergone changes in 2.1: Both lvl 5 dwellings, and the basic level 6 and 7. I'm going to list the new requirements with the changes in brackets ("-" = less; "+" = more)

Basic Level 5: 3000 G 10 W, 10 O, 5 C, 5 G, 5 M, 5 S (-5 G)
Upgr. Level 5: 6000 G, 5 O, 5 C, 10 G (+5 C)
Basic Level 6: 4000, 20 C (-20 G, + 20 C)
Basic Level 7: 10000, 15 O, 10 S, 10 C (-10 S, +10 C)


I think this has profound changes on building strategy (and a hell of a lot for the better). You are of course perfectly able to judge this, but I think this will correct all issues with Dwarven buildings.

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Re: Dwarven Strategy (work in progress)

Postby Lord Zeus » Jan 21 2007, 12:17

Elvin wrote:Luck. I asked Sfidanza and it seems that dwarven luck works like soldier's luck: If the resistance fails you are offered another chance for 15%.

Do you get offered a second chance for 15% or your total magic resistance?

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Postby Mytical » Jan 21 2007, 12:20

Thanks :).

Ok the creatures. First off realize that Dwarves are defensive in nature, and beside a few exceptions (like academy) you should pretty much always make your enemy come and get you, or advance all of your units as one. That being said, here are the creatures and my thoughts on how to use them. Also with the charge rune you can be defensive right in the enemies own yard so if you will charge with even your ranged it can be useful.

Defender - Being Armored, enraged, and having large shield they are best defending your Skirmishers/Spearweilders from melee attacks by blocking the path to them. Upgrade when possible, however, because they lack any umph.

Shieldguard - tougher and they add shieldwall, which means that for every tile any walker or flyer has to travel to hit them = 10% less damage. Very useful for 'creeping'.

Spearwielder - Very few 'shots' so get a ammo cart if you can. The ability to slow down your enemy creatures (both Speed by 50% and init by 30%) is one of the most useful traits for a defense oriented unit. Forcing ranged units to attack less often is a great ability.

Skirmishers - No melee penalty should never come into play, but still with a great increase in number of shots this unit is a desirable upgrade. Damage dealt is much better also.

Bear Rider - Even if Armored so that defense reducing spells can be resisted, this unit is a bit weak unupgraded.

Black Bear Rider - the paw strike is great. Not only does it mean no retal, but it negates any initiative the enemy unit has gathered. Another must upgrade.

Brawler - not so good for a 4th tier tbh, needs a little more umph imo. Upgrade is very useful.

Bezerker - no retal is great, especially when you increase your attack stat by your defense stat.

Rune Priest - with Ignite this guy is a godsend if you can get his special to activate (soldiers luck!). Double initial damage plus the posibility of even more damage for 3 rounds? Who can resists. Nice spells too.

Rune Patriarch - Better spells, can hit 4 enemies, can be considered a must upgrade also. (seems dwarves upgrades are pretty much all a 'must').

Thane - Big, teleports, has chance to hit more then one enemy (soldiers luck again). With rune of charge this guy can be scary. Also can sometimes double initial damage.

Warlord - even stronger, can guarantee hitting more then one unit at least 1 time (and can acta as a range for that one time). Again very useful upgrade.

Lava Dragon - a little slow for a dragon, and no flying, but still not to be taken lightly.

Magma Dragon - Magma + armeggeddon = Dracogeddon ... need I say more? :)
Last edited by Mytical on Jan 21 2007, 13:23, edited 3 times in total.
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Postby Elvin » Jan 21 2007, 12:25

@JJ
So brawlers get no change? Aww...

@Lord Zeus
I'm not sure. If I learn I'll post it here.

Edit: His exact answer was: Dwarven Luck works like Soldier's Luck: magic resistance gets 2 chances to trigger instead of one.

Can't say for sure.
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Postby Elvin » Jan 21 2007, 12:36

Unless I have Karli I like upg defenders on day 2 before creeping. And place them in reach of opponents but as far from them as possible, allowing them to attack first. Against other slow melee they have less casualties if you retaliate and move away again. The upgrade is so cheap that it feels an obligation! :-D

Spearwielders don't get to wound much on their own sadly. Only low hp stacks are generally easy to be wounded so better to take soldier's luck early.

Bear riders die more often than I'd like( :( ) and don't deal much damage either. They really need the upgrade if they are of any use. When upgraded make sure that when hitting creatures on the edge and paw strike triggers that they'll not end adjacent to you or they'll retaliate anyway.
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Postby Amis » Jan 21 2007, 12:39

Defender - Being Armored, enraged, and having large shield they are best defending your Skirmishers/Spearweilders from ranged attack. Upgrade when possible, however, because they lack any umph.


You cannot protect other creatures from ranged attacks, since large shield protects only the creature who have it.

Spearwielder - Very few 'shots' so get a ammo cart if you can. The ability to slow down your enemy creatures (both init by 50% and speed by 30%) is one of the most useful traits for a defense oriented unit. Forcing ranged units to attack less often is a great ability.


It's -50% for speed and -30% for init.

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Postby Mytical » Jan 21 2007, 13:12

Doh ok will fix (guess I got large shield confused hehe).
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Postby Jolly Joker » Jan 21 2007, 14:00

This IS an interesting topic, Mytical, thanks for that one.
Some thoughts.
I'm strongly in favor for playing RANDOM heroes in each and every game where this is possible. I'd even say, that the normal way to go MP should be to set EVERYTHING on random.
However, since there's more than one way to do things, you should be able to pick your town, but:
I'd opt for each player to being able to veto ONE of the opposing heroes in that case (and heroes should be picked randomly on principle at that).
Lastly, trying to optimize town strategies by using a CERTAIN hero (for example, Deleb, or Ossir), should be a special case only.

That's my take on it which means, analyzing the town should involve doing things for all the heroes available, since you start already with a second skill and an ability most of tzhe time which has consequences on how you do things.

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Postby Elvin » Jan 21 2007, 14:12

Mytical wrote:
Bezerker - no retal is great, especially when you increase your attack stat by your defense stat.

Rune Patriarch - Better spells, can hit 4 enemies, can be considered a must upgrade also. (seems dwarves upgrades are pretty much all a 'must').

Thane - Big, teleports, has chance to hit more then one enemy (soldiers luck again). With rune of charge this guy can be scary. Also can sometimes double initial damage.

Lava Dragon - a little slow for a dragon, and no flying, but still not to be taken lightly.

Magma Dragon - Magma + armeggeddon = Dracogeddon ... need I say more? :)


Haven't found a way to use brawlers effectively other than finishing weak stacks and attacking after a unit has retaliated. Good that they are immune to slow but...

Berserkers are very comboable. For instance rune of berserking, then berserk rage for 2 strikes which may be lucky. Or rune of dragonform and then rage for gaining crazy attack skills. A ranged killer if you get rune of charging.
I think that the rage gives just the unit's defence value to attack, not the hero's defence.

Rune patriarch...Simply amazing. Firewall for good damage on 3 stacks and watch them burn! :devil: Or the cross multi-hit that can damn up to four creatures followed by a nice fireball. :hoo:

Actually the thane does double the damage it sais. 8-12 physical and 8-12 electrical (irresistible, affected by defense and luck) which hits adjacent creatures. So a packed formation suffers the electrical damage while the initial target gets the physical too. With rune of battlerage the electrical will hit all creatures multiple times.

The dragons are a heck of a tank with a nice fire shield. Rune of charge and enjoy!


Come to think of it fortress benefits by having tight formations(with certain skills of course) but seriously disrupts others that do it. Units of tier 5, 6, 7 all can hit multiple targets and they can get more with runes.
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Postby okrane » Jan 21 2007, 18:31

They're imba I tell you!!!

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Postby Mytical » Jan 22 2007, 10:27

Thanks for the feedback all. Ok I will put a warning on this part .. the Strategy. This part really is a work in progress as the dwarves are very adaptable and can be used many ways.

As their preferred stats lead you to believe, the Dwarves are a defensive race. They excell at defending and making the enemies come to them. A few exceptions (which I will note as I get to them) exsist, but for the most part, they should stick together and make the enemy come to them.

As soon as you can manage it, get either Light or Destructive Magic (or both). As your troops will not be able to creep very successfully until you have one or the other or both (though against walkers they do have a good chance). Then, depending on your enemy, choose skills that help you against those enemies. I suggest logistics if you can get it, defense and luck at least, with complimentary skills depending. (will get into this also later).

Defensive Exceptions. Now you are going to be hurting during seiges (2 ranged, no flyers) but you need castles so this is an exception when being defensive. Also, you must block the Skeleton Archers if possible, and go on offensive vs Academy. Academy's 3 ranged units are deffinately going to hurt if you try to remain defensive. Also, hunters and master hunters can ruin your day, so might have to go offensive there also.

Upgrade units as soon as feasible, the upgraded units specials make them worth the expense. Always keep resources available (if possible) to activate your runes, however.

In an open field, if you are going to charge, charge with everything including your skirmishers (though you may want to leave your Rune Priests/Patriarch behind. With rune of charge you can reach your enemy in round 1 and cause a bunch of havoc. Remember that your Defenders/Shieldguards take less damage if the enemy has to come to them. Also sometimes it is in your interest to let the enemy surround one of your units (tho that means the unit will be sacrificed for the most part). With multiple units able to hit multiple enemies that are close by each other, you can really cause some damage if they bunch up. This also works wonders on 'turtlers' who try to protect their ranged units.

Ranged Units...how to counter with Fortress (sorry I am a bit chaotic, hehe may need to get somebody less so to organize all this lol). Even if you don't get destructive magic, Fortress can make turtled units and/or ranged units life misserable. Not only can they reach the other side of the field in a turn, but several of there units make it painful to 'turtle' or even just be a ranged unit. You have the Lava/Magma Dragons. If your enemy turtles their ranged, just rush over, breath fire, hit them anyhow (and kill more units also :). The Rune Priest can hit multiple units with their normal ranged attack (and possibly cause them to take more fire damage), while the Rune Patriarch can put down a wall of fire on the ranged units, and make it painful to stay in one spot. The Thane can damage multiple units if they are next to each other, and the warlord can do it once from the safety of a ranged attack. Now if you have Destructive Magic, the fireball spell, and ignite, your enemy might especially regret putting all those units in a neat little package for you.
Light magic mass deflect missile is also handy, especially because with eternal light it can not be dispelled.

Though Upgrading your units is a must, for the dwarf you need to realize that you are not going to have the success against neutral units that most towns do. There will be losses early, and you are going to have to take these in stride. Once you get the ressurrect rune, and possibly the light magic ressurrect, things really can turn arround for you. In light of this, you may want to consider taking the experience from chests more then other towns. You need certain skills to cut down your losses, and to get those skills you need experience. On the positive side there is a building in your town that gives you free defenders (number of which depends on town level) and your walls are really tough to take down. Use this to your advantage because even just the free defenders will make your enemy take some losses to take any of your towns. Upgrading your first 2 units quickly is also a very handy way of helping cut your losses. Consider investing in an ammo cart early however.

Complimentary Skills - If facing Inferno a combo of Summons and Destructive magic will be very useful. Since this allows them to do double damage with destructive spells on summoned creatures.

Necro I would suggest - Light or Dark (or both) and tactics. You really want to take the fight to those skeletons as soon as possible. Also being able to buff your units (and the necro not being able to remove these buffs) and debuffing the enemy can really help.

Dungeon or Haven. Tactics and Preperation might take some sting out of dungeons no-retal units and might help you reach those marksmen faster.

For Haven I would suggest either the above strategy or War-Machines(catapult) and Light Magic (deflect missle). Or even the light/dark magic route.

For Sylvan I would deffinately take tactics, but instead of preperation (def) I would go with Light>eternal light. Your going to need speed/init boosters here.

Academy I would go with Sorcery (distract), luck (dwarven luck), and light (deflect Missile). Should cause them some issues (especially if you find any Magic Resist artifacts).

As you can see the strength of the dwarven units is adaptablity. They can adapt to about any enemy. But in the end it is always better for them to be on the recieving end of a siege.
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Postby val-gaav » Jan 22 2007, 11:44

Well the funny part is that I would go totaly in the opposite way with the dwarves ...

War machines + balista + runic machines is one of the best combo you can get with them, because it allows to go through map with just level 1 units with you .. the huge bonus to ballista initiative is a very nice adition

As for defense it's not so good on dwarves .... With the rune magic system it's much better to invest in offensive perks like offense or luck ... Enlightment for the dwarves is a very good skill too ...
As for logistic ... well I would not take it ... yes it's nice to move faster but dwarves needs more the skills like offense or luck which make the rune magic more efficient.

As for magic never take both light / destruction .... Any of these can be nice it's up to player to decide ...

Also I'm strongly thinking that maybe with dwarves (at least on MP) you should take the magic skills last / or even not take it .... I find it hard to build both rune guild and magic guild before the game ends ......

Either way I find that runes are a priority over normal magic

Jolly Joker wrote:I'm strongly in favor for playing RANDOM heroes in each and every game where this is possible. I'd even say, that the normal way to go MP should be to set EVERYTHING on random.

Well it's more the problem of some heroes being imba IMHO .... so either they should put heroes like Deleb in line eith other so the choice of a hero would not be so obvious .... Just look on inferno without Deleb there are at least 3 heroes that I would gladly pick ....
going even further I find it radical but maybe the game should revert to HoMM2 way where heroes did not have a speciality....
That said I like the uniqness of every hero so IMHO just nerfing the ones too are too good would be enough ....

because you know going random is nice and all, but one can still get deleb while going random and has a further chance of this hero being in tavern slot at the start of the game ...


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