Worst race in Heroes 5

The new Heroes games produced by Ubisoft. Please specify which game you are referring to in your post.

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Which race do you look at and think 'hahaha it's week 1 day 1 GG!'

Haven
6
11%
Sylvan
5
9%
Inferno
18
33%
Academy
17
31%
Necropolis
5
9%
Fortress
3
6%
 
Total votes: 54

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PhoenixReborn
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Postby PhoenixReborn » Jan 20 2007, 4:16

Shauku wrote:Statistically Inferno is CLEARLY the weakest. They have lowest overall attack rating (this is really weird), lowest HP, lowest overall defence and lastly lowest minimum damage.


And what about the most important stat initiative? Cerberi, Nightmares, and imps all have very good initiative. Nightmares can hit several times before they go down...even the succubi have decent initative. Admittedly the horned demons and pit lords are weak in initiative but who uses them?

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Postby winterfate » Jan 20 2007, 4:27

Sylvan is clearly the weakest. Everything just seems to be misplaced. They rely on initiative and speed, but the hero skills are defense followed by knowledge. Although everyone has their tanks and damage dealiers, for sylvan, damage and hitpoints are so seperated, even the idiot knows who to pick on (as in, not treants).

They suffer the same creature problems as dungeon, namely low numbers, but without a usable creeping creature until hunters, which costs too much wood and doesn't have enough hp to even fight other shooters. Blood furies can at least rush up to shooters, and warlords can blast flyers. Sprites get wiped out by slow melee with a random morale boast.

Druids you get way too late, and when you get it, they aren't even useful in large numbers (mages are a lot more dangerous). Whoever came up with the idea of a logarithmic scale to damage spells... mana feed is a joke, destructive magic on a low-spellpower hero is even funnier. Avenger is not even that amazing even if you do choose your enemy's creatures, because three skill points could've been spent somewhere else.

Which is a real shame, because I firmly believe that emerald dragons are by far the best level 7 creature. Plus their units feels so much like Asian gangsters. Level 1-4: prostitute, crack dealers holding knives, assassins and killers, old "big brother" (triad leader) with a walking stick...


Who dares say that Sylvan is weak? :flame:

It all depends in how you use them. Of course Hunters cost a lot of wood (I'm a Sylvan fanatic and I have to admit that if they were cheaper, they'd be overpowered), but then again, they hurt a LOT (when you upgrade, they become the most damaging level 3 unit in the game, AFAIK).

Low numbers? :| You make 7 Hunters per week (on par with Scouts/Assasins, which are marginally weaker than Hunters/Master Hunters). In a maxed out town, you can make 5 treants/week (that's actually broken, IMO).

And I meant no offense, but I get kind of tense when people talk negatively about Elves ;).
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Postby PhoenixReborn » Jan 20 2007, 4:29

sylvanllewelyn wrote:Sylvan is clearly the weakest. Everything just seems to be misplaced. They rely on initiative and speed, but the hero skills are defense followed by knowledge. Although everyone has their tanks and damage dealiers, for sylvan, damage and hitpoints are so seperated, even the idiot knows who to pick on (as in, not treants).

Druids you get way too late, and when you get it, they aren't even useful in large numbers (mages are a lot more dangerous). Whoever came up with the idea of a logarithmic scale to damage spells... mana feed is a joke, destructive magic on a low-spellpower hero is even funnier. Avenger is not even that amazing even if you do choose your enemy's creatures, because three skill points could've been spent somewhere else.


Knowledge and destructive magic are intended for use with Imbue arrow which ties in nicely with Avenger. It's a skill combination that makes sense. I'm not sure what you mean about the treants, but the unicorns aren't bad damage dealers and they are pretty sturdy.

Doesn't the logarithim apply to the mage as well? In late game Druids shoot well and often get luck.

Any way I agree that emeralds are excellent level 7's, they are so fast. I just wish they had more hit points.

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Postby Mytical » Jan 20 2007, 5:25

Sylvan for me is way up there on the food chain, and the reason is overall balance. Their creatures almost all are in the top end (damage, hp, ect) of their tier and never at the low end. Sure some of them may not be the very top of the tier, but they always are in the top 3. Now add in Avenger and they can even top out over the others. Not only can it add damage to the creatures, but it can save Sylvan mana. Or better yet, those creatures that they face that is magically immune, they can still do a tremendous damage too. Now beginning of game the path for Sylvan is a bit rough but even ranged units can be taken down with sprites (they have a decent initiative and some decent speed, and once they reach the ranged units it is all over.) Sure they die like flies, but they repopulate just as fast. You move a bit slower then others until you have druids, but once you have both MH and druids, you can make up ground fast.
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Postby Shauku » Jan 20 2007, 6:28

PhoenixReborn wrote:
Shauku wrote:Statistically Inferno is CLEARLY the weakest. They have lowest overall attack rating (this is really weird), lowest HP, lowest overall defence and lastly lowest minimum damage.


And what about the most important stat initiative? Cerberi, Nightmares, and imps all have very good initiative. Nightmares can hit several times before they go down...even the succubi have decent initative. Admittedly the horned demons and pit lords are weak in initiative but who uses them?


Yep, they do have the second highest initiative, which counts. But they have the most stats that are lowest of all. Like HP, attack, defence, minimum damage. Thats too many for one faction IMO. I am not saying thay cannot compete, for they sure can. They have a lot of hidden potential, just to name few Succubus chain shot, multiple attack of Cerberus, great overall heroes, Vorpal Sword... those cannot be seen in the statistics. Neither can gating.

But I pointed out a weakness, lower stats. Everything is not about them, but the creatures can't take about any damage. And that i can understand. But why do they need to have the lowest attack rating too? That doesn't make sence. And the other part is the damage range, which is completely a negative thing. Haven is another faction which damage range where maximum is double of minimum, but they've got Bless written all over their face. Even the frigging Inquisitors have it.

Well, I do like Inferno very much, thats not it. Just giving some statistics.. They need to find their potential to come on top of other faction. Can be done, but to me it feels like they are starting as an underdog.

Oh, about Sylvan. They have a huge damage output. They are funny in a way, couse the faction is really "out of balance". The treants have 1/3 of the entire factions HP... Now thats insane. And I also am of the opinion that Emeralds are the best level 7.. With that initiative (and not counting the breath attack, thats double the damage) they can score the most damage from level 7. [/b]

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Postby Mytical » Jan 20 2007, 6:56

Also, when facing inferno it is smarter to ignore the gated troops until after the main troops are done for. Sure they will do some damage to you, soak up your retals, and generally be a pain in your behind. However, even if your opponit 'wins' if only gated troops are left they still loose also. Not to mention Sylvan's rain of arrows can hit up to 6 stacks with gated counted :). However, I also don't think any one town is worse then any others, though some are more difficult to play.
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Postby Jolly Joker » Jan 20 2007, 8:51

You can make a case for all factions NOT being weak. Inferno? No matter your points here, what about siege combats and Mana stealing? The gating thing is a massive advantage in siege combats, because you can gate them in. And mana stealing, with 4 imps stealing 1 point of mana you'll cripple Haven, you'll cripple Necro and you'll cripple Dungeon immediately.

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Postby okrane » Jan 20 2007, 9:08

I think there is pretty much no point in arguing that there are any weakest races... I find them all to have their strong points. Maybe there are some things that are a little too strong, but there isn't such a race that is weaker than all others... At least if you know how to play it...

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Postby Jolly Joker » Jan 20 2007, 9:31

Caradoc wrote:
Jolly Joker wrote:Well as I said, Haven Training and Skelly gathering has been changed for 2.1/1.5 - and rather effectively I may add. For Haven there will be a weekly limit of possible training upgrades. The basic Training Grounds will allow only 7 training upgrades per week which is effectively killing the chance to use the initial starting money to train an army of marksmen. The Hall of Heroes will add to that limit - a good deal, but not overpoweringly (I think, at least).


Seven does not sound like enough. With the relative weakness of the Counterstrike racial skill, it seem that Haven may now be at a disadvantage. I guess we'll have to wait and see. If it were my call, I think I'd have made the limit one week's growth, which would then scale with the creature level.

BTW, JJ: What else can you tell us about the contents of the patch?


No, I disagree here. The skill is training, not training Archers. As it is, Haven simply gives peasants a bow, boring and leading to a new Gremlin rush. However, with TRAINING GROUNDS (there is a Hall of Heroes to be build as well which increases the limit) allowing to train 7 units only you might see other training actions as well - Cleric to Cavalier, for example, expensive, but very powerful.

I've told already toomuch anyway about the patch.

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Postby darkpriest » Jan 20 2007, 9:39

i think that all the races are balanced, for the most of the time. Sometimes one faction may seem as better then the other but that is because not all the upgrade are done or it' still early in the game.However i must say that fortress is the weakest to me in terms of attack. all creatures there have high defense but somehow the attack is a miss

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Postby okrane » Jan 20 2007, 10:35

Jolly Joker wrote:
Caradoc wrote:
Jolly Joker wrote:Well as I said, Haven Training and Skelly gathering has been changed for 2.1/1.5 - and rather effectively I may add. For Haven there will be a weekly limit of possible training upgrades. The basic Training Grounds will allow only 7 training upgrades per week which is effectively killing the chance to use the initial starting money to train an army of marksmen. The Hall of Heroes will add to that limit - a good deal, but not overpoweringly (I think, at least).


Seven does not sound like enough. With the relative weakness of the Counterstrike racial skill, it seem that Haven may now be at a disadvantage. I guess we'll have to wait and see. If it were my call, I think I'd have made the limit one week's growth, which would then scale with the creature level.

BTW, JJ: What else can you tell us about the contents of the patch?


No, I disagree here. The skill is training, not training Archers. As it is, Haven simply gives peasants a bow, boring and leading to a new Gremlin rush. However, with TRAINING GROUNDS (there is a Hall of Heroes to be build as well which increases the limit) allowing to train 7 units only you might see other training actions as well - Cleric to Cavalier, for example, expensive, but very powerful.

I've told already toomuch anyway about the patch.


You mean you will be able to upgrade only 7 units per week? That is kind of worthless... I mean... training only 7 archers per week is kind of useless...

Ok I agree you can upgrade stronger units... but an extra paladin won't do much difference, and those training buidings are pretty expensive to justify this kind of nerf. Personally I would like it if Training got nerfed only early on, stopping the dangerous rush haven could have done. But late game,I don't find upgrading all peasants into archers so powerful...

A more interesting nerf would have been having a limit of each unit per week. Say for archers: 10 archers + 10*number_of_the_current_week per week and for champions: 1 champion + no_of_week per week.... that way the power you gain by uprading would scale. Haven's strength lies in its army. And if haven can't raise a superior army when fighthing for example a strong spell-casting hero, their racial would be weak.

Another thing I am not satisfied with is the fact that when you train an upgraded unit into a higher rank you pay just as much you would of payed for a non-upgraded unit. I mean: if you want to upgrade a priest into an cavalier you pay just as much you would pay for training an Inquisitor, even if you payed already some extra cash to upgrade the priest into an Inquisitor. I think this should be looked into, and you should pay less money when training an upgraded unit...

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Postby Jolly Joker » Jan 20 2007, 13:06

All I can say is, there are two training buildings and the second increases the limit.

And you are right, ONE paladin won't make a difference. But what about grading 6 clerics up to Paladins?

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Postby Elvin » Jan 20 2007, 13:16

It feels right and angels will be worth it once again. Of course if you don't build them you get much stronger later on as either as a hasted massive stack or two stacks to exploit jousting, paladins are sick! :hoo:
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Postby sylvanllewelyn » Jan 20 2007, 14:24

Perhaps I'm too multiplayer focused, but as much potential Sylvan has, they really have difficulty creeping in the beginning. Everyone has their way of creeping: Haven has marksman (for big creeps; no point wasting marksman on lots of assassins), inferno has gating, necros have raise skeleton, dungeon and academy has magic. It's too difficult for Sylvan to reduce casualties in the beginning, as they don't have a skill that they can immediately use. Once you get the resources to get hunters, you won't have many sprites and blade dancers left as meatshield, and they aren't even that good at being meatshields. I just don't see how they can avoid being bashed by ANY human army in the first month.

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Postby ThunderTitan » Jan 20 2007, 14:56

sylvanllewelyn wrote:It's too difficult for Sylvan to reduce casualties in the beginning,


If you don't avoid ranged creatures that is. Sprites + Hero = death to anything not fast enough. Keep the BDancers out of the early fights to horde them.
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Postby RK » Jan 20 2007, 16:10

Which is why I pick Ossir as the starting hero. But he's still pathetic compared to other super hero of other factions.

Inferno can't be weakest. Their creeping power is just too good as well as the super hero selections available to them. Damage range is one thing, but Hellfire makes up for it, Mark of the Damned is amazing when placed on those pesky shooters. Just let those stupid deamons eat all the ranged neutral stacks, that's all they're good for. Don't even bother upgrading them, nothing significant gained.

If Sylvan ever meet the Iron Maiden led army in the early game, they have no chance in hell of winning it outright. Even late game, nullified hunters = pain of greatest kind. And every hero meeting = mana drain thanks.

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Postby Shauku » Jan 20 2007, 16:53

They do have rough time creeping early, WITHOUT Deleb. That is not a sign of a strong faction, but of a strong Hero. Again I am not claiming they are weakest, but pointing out one shouldn't us Deleb as a proof of Infernos power. So yes, Inferno is great and everything. As a whole. As in how they work. But they just have the lowest stats and damage range they cannot utilize. Nothing big, as gating compensates for it just like Nacromancy compensates for what the creatures lack.

Oh well. The topic was wrong for my post anyways, I do not think Inferno is the weakest race. It has it's weaknesses as do all factions. I just prefer the other weaknesses

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Postby val-gaav » Jan 20 2007, 17:06

Shauku wrote:They do have rough time creeping early, WITHOUT Deleb. That is not a sign of a strong faction, but of a strong Hero.


Well here is a quote from toh player Jinxer :
For the record.... I always require that both players play random heroes. And on top of that...will request that powerful heroes like Deleb - Ossir - Dougal be banned as main hero. Those heroes are more of a campaign type hero and not a serious multiplayer based hero. It amazes me when people grumble when I say we need to go Random heroes. They cridnge at the thought of having to play a normal hero that isnt suped up!


I do not think inferno would be popular if there is no Deleb ... as you say one good hero does not make a good faction....


Here is the whole topic if anybody is interested
http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.p ... genumber=1

Jinxer also nicely sums up the town balance :
As for dominate races.... Ubisoft had a nice vision of making the towns sooo unique , each having there special advantage.... however the problem is the maps. As you pointed out, some maps this race and that race are dominate other maps other races are. Which means that Ubisoft did not succeed 100% in there multiplayer attempts. This game is great fun, and I do LOVE it. Has ALOT of great concepts and new features... but what it lacks is that ability of the towns to have there unique advantages and at the same time have that aura of balanced.


And that is really something I agree with ... On a certain map any of the h5 towns may be called the best or the worst .... it should not be that way ... Towns should be more or less equal on any kind of map <size , number of town, resources,etc>

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Postby Banedon » Jan 21 2007, 9:00

val-gaav wrote:i totally disagree .... You almost never have the extra devil stack, because chances that you will find this one artifact is very low(you need ultimate gating). Unupgraded devil is mhmm ... to low on hp to be serious unit... it's in fact the worst from all 7 level in my opinion. Archedivls bonus ? they get a little hp and small statistic bonus... summon pitlord ? yeah it would be nice if it would not need the dead enemy stack .... before you can use it your devils will be dead. (I'm not sure if it needs a dead stack ? any patch changed that ? ).... anyway I'm sure that devils wins the contest for worst level 7 unit.


What about their other creatures? Bashing the Archdevils alone isn't the end of the story. The other creatures can all be easily Gated and they're all expendable. They can be used outside of the final battle to take minimal losses, and skills like Swift Gating help a lot.

As for Archdevils as the worst level 7, I'm sure some people will argue for Spectral Dragons (points at Jolly Joker).

@Sylvan - Yesterday I had this game playing Sylvan, close to the end of the second week I had 39 Hunters (with the Master Hunter dwelling - this large number owes much to there being a Hunter's Cabid outside my town), 8 Druids and 10k in the bank. That's certainly fast in my opinion, but that map was quite rich in terms of Wood, my town gave +250 gold / turn and there were creatures to pull the hit / run tactic with Sprites.

Perhaps I'm too multiplayer focused, but as much potential Sylvan has, they really have difficulty creeping in the beginning. Everyone has their way of creeping: Haven has marksman (for big creeps; no point wasting marksman on lots of assassins), inferno has gating, necros have raise skeleton, dungeon and academy has magic. It's too difficult for Sylvan to reduce casualties in the beginning, as they don't have a skill that they can immediately use. Once you get the resources to get hunters, you won't have many sprites and blade dancers left as meatshield, and they aren't even that good at being meatshields. I just don't see how they can avoid being bashed by ANY human army in the first month.


I think you exaggerated things. Sylvan has it tough but not so tough. Ossir starts with 10+ Hunters and the Sprites can perform hit / run on slow walkers. You can't take certain creatures (eg. neutral Sprites, Marksmen, Master Gremlins) without losses early of course but they don't have it that bad. If Inferno does not begin with Deleb I would say Inferno has the tougher time.

And I don't use Sprites as meatshields. The Blade Dancers will have to do. There's generally not enough wood to build the Battledance arena but you can get a few more from hired Sylvan heroes.

If you don't avoid ranged creatures that is. Sprites + Hero = death to anything not fast enough. Keep the BDancers out of the early fights to horde them.


Sometimes you can't avoid Ranged (or magical) creatures early. If you're Sylvan and the stack guarding your Sawmill is one of Master Gremlins, do you fight or pass? You have to fight, and fight as early as possible.

And yeah, if Sylvan runs into Deleb in the first week Sylvan = toast (unless they're fighting from behind a castle of some kind).

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Postby ThunderTitan » Jan 21 2007, 11:49

Banedon wrote:Sometimes you can't avoid Ranged (or magical) creatures early.


Yeah, but it's not that common as to ruin the faction.

As for Deleb, that's more of a hero then a faction imba.
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