Worst race in Heroes 5

The new Heroes games produced by Ubisoft. Please specify which game you are referring to in your post.

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Which race do you look at and think 'hahaha it's week 1 day 1 GG!'

Haven
6
11%
Sylvan
5
9%
Inferno
18
33%
Academy
17
31%
Necropolis
5
9%
Fortress
3
6%
 
Total votes: 54

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Jolly Joker
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Postby Jolly Joker » Jan 19 2007, 11:11

Well, it seems there will be "enought", but it won't be possible anymore to exceed a certain number in any given time. Since somehow the hero level plays a role it shouldn't have an impact on campaigns, but on regular maps there will be a limit of what you can reasonably expect.
Patch 2.1 is definitely tested currently. I think they want to make sure this time the new patch won't bring about new bugs.

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Postby RK » Jan 19 2007, 14:30

uh i really hate inferno early game cheapness with gating, their neutral encounters are virtually low risk affair. Add in Beleb with that FB Ballista I haven't really been challenged by Neutral stacks unlike some other faction that require tight micro to avoid casualty.

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Postby val-gaav » Jan 19 2007, 15:44

Jolly Joker wrote: The basic Training Grounds will allow only 7 training upgrades per week which is effectively killing the chance to use the initial starting money to train an army of marksmen. The Hall of Heroes will add to that limit - a good deal, but not overpoweringly (I think, at least).


Well it maybe because english is not my main language, but please elaborate .... Does this mean : 7 upgrades per week .... or 7 creatures upgraded per week ???...

If this is the second then it may actually work (at least for marksman), though I think Paladins will still be a major problem in late game ....

Anyway thanks for sharing this inside info it's really interesting :)

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Postby Elvin » Jan 19 2007, 15:50

Hmm, that would certainly leave money for training priests and the cap actually encourages that since training lesser tiers won't be as effective.
I hope the caps for each tier are different but one can only guess. At least things will be better now.
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Postby Banedon » Jan 19 2007, 15:56

It's really remarkable in my opinion how Inferno has four votes, tied with Academy. I mean I can understand why people would vote Academy, but Inferno...? Inferno has that mass Gating effect that's so very powerful and devastating. It allows Inferno to increase his army size by a tremendous amount late-game and for casulaty-free battles early. Odd, but to each his own.

The v1.5 change is a good one for Haven, not so good for Necropolis. I've yet to see truly stupendous Skeleton Archer stacks that cannot be neutralized in some way ([EDIT: Yes Confusion doesn't work on Skeletons - what was I thinking?], Deflect Missiles, sacrificing units to block them, etc) outside of the 4k Skeleton Archers in the campaigns. I personally don't think Necropolis needs that limit to be balanced, but then seeing how Necropolis gains power as the game progresses (at least until they run out of food) perhaps one is in order. Shouldn't be a low limit though. Haven's training getting capped is natural, otherwise there're always way too many Marksmen on the battlefield.

No one agrees with my assessment of Dungeon as weakest, but I'm all OK with that :) I find Dungeon's main problems stem from their abject difficulty at clearing neutrals early, when the Blood Furies die or the hero uses spell points. Later their power doubles and trebles and is totally ferocious before ebbing again, but I've found the other races can compensate with their superior farming capabilities. Oh well, it's just me.
Last edited by Banedon on Jan 19 2007, 16:34, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby val-gaav » Jan 19 2007, 16:21

Banedon wrote:It's really remarkable in my opinion how Inferno has four votes, tied with Academy. I mean I can understand why people would vote Academy, but Inferno...? Inferno has that mass Gating effect that's so very powerful and devastating. It allows Inferno to increase his army size by a tremendous amount late-game and for casulaty-free battles early. Odd, but to each his own.


Well gating would be good bonus for hero who would have defense as his main atribute and no attack .... It's a first thing ... the second is that Infernal units are generally either medium or weak. Devils and their upgrade is a joke for the price you pay for them. The 6 level is a killer but low initiative + gating = game over before they move.
and still gatting is nice but other races have good bonuses too ... runes or warlock destruction specialization are in my book better then gatting ....

I've yet to see truly stupendous Skeleton Archer stacks that cannot be neutralized in some way (Confusion, Deflect Missiles, sacrificing units to block them, etc) outside of the 4k Skeleton Archers in the campaigns. I personally don't think Necropolis needs that limit to be balanced, but then seeing how Necropolis gains power as the game progresses (at least until they run out of food) perhaps one is in order.

Well ImHO a limit will be ok as long is not too low ... and it is needed .... also necropolis is not that bad without the archers ... the thing is it would need to be able to catch +3 dragons early and with current ridiculous mercury and ore demand it's not possible.

No one agrees with my assessment of Dungeon as weakest, but I'm all OK with that :) I find Dungeon's main problems stem from their abject difficulty at clearing neutrals early, when the Blood Furies die or the hero uses spell points.

Well it gets some work to get the trick rolling but dungeon is not that bad at the start. It's not the worst town ... personally if I where to choose I would say that either Academy or inferno is the weakest. It's hard to tell which of those two but other races are better and for me if there was no Daleb in inferno then clearly it would be the worst town.
Last edited by val-gaav on Jan 19 2007, 16:25, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby PhoenixReborn » Jan 19 2007, 16:23

Banedon wrote:I mean I can understand why people would vote Academy, but Inferno...? Inferno has that mass Gating effect that's so very powerful and devastating.

Skeleton Archer stacks that cannot be neutralized in some way (Confusion, Deflect Missiles, sacrificing units to block them, etc)

Necropolis needs that limit to be balanced, but then seeing how Necropolis gains power as the game progresses (at least until they run out of food) perhaps one is in order.


The main advantage of inferno that I see is in assaulting castles because you can get inside the walls easier.

Confusion doesn't work on skeletons. You can't block a skeleton out because something else will be blocking you from blocking them. After all skeletons are the strength of the army. Deflect missile is nice if you have it.

Try playing against Necro on heroic on War of the Worlds...let me know what happens.

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Postby Elvin » Jan 19 2007, 16:30

Banedon wrote:No one agrees with my assessment of Dungeon as weakest, but I'm all OK with that :) I find Dungeon's main problems stem from their abject difficulty at clearing neutrals early, when the Blood Furies die or the hero uses spell points.


They are better than most against walkers and many in a row too as spells are not required. They have problems against ranged and there will be sacrifices if you plan on attacking them early. Except against ranged and very fast creatures the furies will rarely have casualties unless you can't handle them. But you can save mana just for these situations. Intelligence, arcane training and the obligatory secrets of destruction are a big boost in the first weeks and fairly easy to get.
No surprise I upg furies in day 2.
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Postby Banedon » Jan 19 2007, 16:42

Well gating would be good bonus for hero who would have defense as his main atribute and no attack .... It's a first thing ... the second is that Infernal units are generally either medium or weak. Devils and their upgrade is a joke for the price you pay for them. The 6 level is a killer but low initiative + gating = game over before they move.


Well the Devils are weak but you do have another stack of them who are totally expendable and you can move wherever you want :) Inferno's creatures have to be weak or the race would be imbalanced.

Well it gets some work to get the trick rolling but dungeon is not that bad at the start. It's not the worst town ... personally if I where to choose I would say that either Academy or inferno is the weakest. It's hard to tell which of those two but other races are better and for me if there was no Daleb in inferno then clearly it would be the worst town.


I find Dungeon and Sylvan to be the two races who has it hardest early, and hence they're the two weakest. Sylvan however has easy availability of Sprites as well as Ossir's 10+ Hunters, so I think they take the upper hand. Inferno of course has Deleb while Academy mages have more mana. They have an easier time early, that's for sure.

Confusion doesn't work on skeletons. You can't block a skeleton out because something else will be blocking you from blocking them. After all skeletons are the strength of the army. Deflect missile is nice if you have it.


Yeah what was I thinking (edited out Confusion). Yup you won't be able to block them for a while, but then if you're taking half damage it isn't that bad while Mass Deflect Missiles is quite the killer spell here. I've never found Necropolis imbalanced, but then again I've never played War of the Worlds either.

They are better than most against walkers and many in a row too as spells are not required. They have problems against ranged and there will be sacrifices if you plan on attacking them early. Except against ranged and very fast creatures the furies will rarely have casualties unless you can't handle them. But you can save mana just for these situations. Intelligence, arcane training and the obligatory secrets of destruction are a big boost in the first weeks and fairly easy to get.


Agreed, but there're a surprisingly large number of creatures that can kill some Blood Furies early. Marksmen would for Haven, Familiars might for Inferno, other Assassins / Blood Furies would for Dungeon, Sprites / War Dancers for Sylvan, Skeleton Archers for Necropolis and Master Gremlins for Academy. Oddly enough I find there to be at least some stacks against whom you are bound to lose Blood Furies early, and if you don't lose Blood Furies you must lose Assassins and some spell points. That's why I think Dungeon has a bad start and they, with Sylvan, are the two weakest races.

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Postby PhoenixReborn » Jan 19 2007, 16:46

Elvin wrote:They [dungeon] are better than most against walkers and many in a row too as spells are not required.


I would have to disagree with this statement. No faction has trouble against walkers.

Academy=fire trap/gremlin/golem
Dwarves=skirmishers
Inferno=gating
Knight=marksmen
Necro=raise dead
Sylvan=wasp swarm

Or whatever strategy. When you add in the brain dead a.i. that will chase a single creature while your ranged hammer them it's no contest. Flying troops are more of a danger because they will go after your shooters even if a single creature is in range. I killed some rakshasa's with fire trap. Even higher level walkers aren't a threat to any faction.

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Postby Elvin » Jan 19 2007, 16:48

Sylvan doesn't have a great earlygame but heck you can build hunters and druids in week 1. Too bad it's so hard to upg hunters early...Ranged can disrupt things a bit unless you get Wyngaal.
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Postby Jolly Joker » Jan 19 2007, 17:59

val-gaav wrote:
Jolly Joker wrote: The basic Training Grounds will allow only 7 training upgrades per week which is effectively killing the chance to use the initial starting money to train an army of marksmen. The Hall of Heroes will add to that limit - a good deal, but not overpoweringly (I think, at least).


Well it maybe because english is not my main language, but please elaborate .... Does this mean : 7 upgrades per week .... or 7 creatures upgraded per week ???...

If this is the second then it may actually work (at least for marksman), though I think Paladins will still be a major problem in late game ....

Anyway thanks for sharing this inside info it's really interesting :)


What I mean is that with the basic Training grounds you'll be able to train only 7 single units per week, for example, 7 peasants to Archers.

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Postby val-gaav » Jan 19 2007, 18:04

Banedon wrote:Well the Devils are weak but you do have another stack of them who are totally expendable and you can move wherever you want :) Inferno's creatures have to be weak or the race would be imbalanced.

i totally disagree .... You almost never have the extra devil stack, because chances that you will find this one artifact is very low(you need ultimate gating). Unupgraded devil is mhmm ... to low on hp to be serious unit... it's in fact the worst from all 7 level in my opinion. Archedivls bonus ? they get a little hp and small statistic bonus... summon pitlord ? yeah it would be nice if it would not need the dead enemy stack .... before you can use it your devils will be dead. (I'm not sure if it needs a dead stack ? any patch changed that ? ).... anyway I'm sure that devils wins the contest for worst level 7 unit.

Jolly Joker wrote:[
What I mean is that with the basic Training grounds you'll be able to train only 7 single units per week, for example, 7 peasants to Archers.

thanks for clarification ... well it will work for the marksman rush that's for sure....

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Postby 86wyp » Jan 19 2007, 18:07

From my exprience, the rank would be:

1. Necropolis
If one could creep fast in the first two weeks and play it right, this faction is almost unstopable in most maps. Unfortunately many couldn't.

2. Academy
Another great faction, and very fun to play.

3. Fortress
Like necropolis, this faction can be developed in either might-oriented way or magic-oriented way. I just happened to find that Erling with sorcery+enlightenment+light magic+destructive magic can be very strong.

4&5. Dungeon&Haven
Weak point is as obvious as strong point.

6. Inferno
Iron Maiden is almost the only thing that shines in Inferno.

7. Sylvan
There are so many ridiculous things in the faction: The wood cost, the avenger, the hero attributes, etc.

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Postby ThunderTitan » Jan 19 2007, 18:41

86wyp wrote:7. Sylvan
There are so many ridiculous things in the faction: The wood cost, the avenger, the hero attributes, etc.


The hunters insane dmg if you use the right... the huge boost to dmg luck gives...
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Postby Caradoc » Jan 19 2007, 19:53

Jolly Joker wrote:Well as I said, Haven Training and Skelly gathering has been changed for 2.1/1.5 - and rather effectively I may add. For Haven there will be a weekly limit of possible training upgrades. The basic Training Grounds will allow only 7 training upgrades per week which is effectively killing the chance to use the initial starting money to train an army of marksmen. The Hall of Heroes will add to that limit - a good deal, but not overpoweringly (I think, at least).


Seven does not sound like enough. With the relative weakness of the Counterstrike racial skill, it seem that Haven may now be at a disadvantage. I guess we'll have to wait and see. If it were my call, I think I'd have made the limit one week's growth, which would then scale with the creature level.

BTW, JJ: What else can you tell us about the contents of the patch?
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Postby Shauku » Jan 19 2007, 19:56

Statistically Inferno is CLEARLY the weakest. They have lowest overall attack rating (this is really weird), lowest HP, lowest overall defence and lastly lowest minimum damage. Their damage range is 400-818, which means a Bless will do them wonders. However this range doesn't help them one bit, as they are not heavy at learning light magic neither will bless be found in their guild often. So the huge damage range is again a negative thing.

However, they have a lot of hidden damage potential not counted there. Cerberi, Succubus Mistress and Pit Lord all have abilities to increase the damage output (Cerberi and Succubi dealing double the normal damage, Pit Lords possibly even more). And then they have the second highest initiative and they have fast walkers. And the racial ability gating to boost not only damage but HP as well.

But if i had to choose the weakest, Inferno would be my choise, the main reason being the annoying damage range. I guess it is as they are chaotic in nature, so they have it therefore. But I like to be able to get over those weaknesses... In case of Inferno, Mass Weakness is there to stay.

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Postby ThunderTitan » Jan 19 2007, 21:29

Shauku wrote:And the racial ability gating to boost not only damage but HP as well.

But if i had to choose the weakest, Inferno would be my choise, the main reason being the annoying damage range.


Free creatures should make up for the dmg range pretty well imo.
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Postby lisqr » Jan 20 2007, 1:15

ThunderTitan wrote:
Shauku wrote:And the racial ability gating to boost not only damage but HP as well.

But if i had to choose the weakest, Inferno would be my choise, the main reason being the annoying damage range.


Free creatures should make up for the dmg range pretty well imo.


Also their racial doesn't require any building unlike most other races.

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Postby sylvanllewelyn » Jan 20 2007, 4:01

Sylvan is clearly the weakest. Everything just seems to be misplaced. They rely on initiative and speed, but the hero skills are defense followed by knowledge. Although everyone has their tanks and damage dealiers, for sylvan, damage and hitpoints are so seperated, even the idiot knows who to pick on (as in, not treants).

They suffer the same creature problems as dungeon, namely low numbers, but without a usable creeping creature until hunters, which costs too much wood and doesn't have enough hp to even fight other shooters. Blood furies can at least rush up to shooters, and warlords can blast flyers. Sprites get wiped out by slow melee with a random morale boast.

Druids you get way too late, and when you get it, they aren't even useful in large numbers (mages are a lot more dangerous). Whoever came up with the idea of a logarithmic scale to damage spells... mana feed is a joke, destructive magic on a low-spellpower hero is even funnier. Avenger is not even that amazing even if you do choose your enemy's creatures, because three skill points could've been spent somewhere else.

Which is a real shame, because I firmly believe that emerald dragons are by far the best level 7 creature. Plus their units feels so much like Asian gangsters. Level 1-4: prostitute, crack dealers holding knives, assassins and killers, old "big brother" (triad leader) with a walking stick...


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