The devastating flaw of Heroes V.

The new Heroes games produced by Ubisoft. Please specify which game you are referring to in your post.
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Solipso
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The devastating flaw of Heroes V.

Unread postby Solipso » 13 Dec 2006, 16:43

The devastating flaw of Heroes V is its lack of perspective. Having to move the camera around is a nuisance. I got to the point where I was asking myself, “Why should I put up with this nuisance when there are two other versions of the game that don’t have it?”

It’s not as if I have played Heroes III and IV to death. I play them only intermittently, between plays of other games. After my recent replay of the Neverwinter Nights trilogy, I played a scenario of Heroes III and a scenario of Heroes IV. A week ago I finished Titan Quest. Then I played two scenarios of Heroes III and a scenario of Heroes IV. There is always an itch that pulls me back to these games, and as long as I have a PC, I will be playing them.

The developers of Heroes V have fallen into the same old trap that other developers have fallen into. They had a fetish, or a conceit, or a stubborn fixation, or whatever you want to call it, about 3D. They blinded themselves with the misconception that if a game is 3D it has a chance of being good; whereas if a game is not 3D, it cannot possibly be any good.

With respect to Heroes III, IV, and V, they were very wrong. Because III and IV are not 3D, they have a perspective that allows fast and easy gameplay. Because V is 3D, it has hordes of polygons that require a close-in perspective. This means that the player has to move the camera around to see things. It makes the gameplay clumsy and slow.

3D is viable for other genres, but not for the strategical-viewpoint perspective that is part of the soul of Heroes of Might & Magic.

Sure, the artwork of Heroes V is superlative. But after the initial oohs and ahs, a player settles down into routine gameplay. For a game to pull a player through it, it needs to be absorbingly interesting. It does not need state-of-the-art graphics and sound. The clumsy perspective of Heroes V interrupts the flow of absorbing interest that is present in III and IV. To me, the graphics of Heroes V seems to be a sleazy commercial gimmick.

I think I will always be a fan of Heroes, but not Heroes V. :proud:

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Re: The devastating flaw of Heroes V.

Unread postby val-gaav » 13 Dec 2006, 16:59

Actually with patch 1.3 there is a view selector in options ...

you can choose to play on "HoMM classic view" , you get a nice view from top ... so rotating camera is gone.

That is the way I play the game becouse the whole rotating spoiled fun also for me .... Now it is great :)


You should try playing with this settings, becouse for me it's really much like playing older heroes games, iMO it can also solve this problem for you.

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Re: The devastating flaw of Heroes V.

Unread postby ThunderTitan » 13 Dec 2006, 17:41

Solipso wrote:They had a fetish, or a conceit, or a stubborn fixation, or whatever you want to call it, about 3D. They blinded themselves with the misconception that if a game is 3D it has a chance of being good; whereas if a game is not 3D, it cannot possibly be any good.

It's not that, it's the fact that a 2D game won't sell as much. Unfortunatly they're right, alot of ppl will try a 3D game just coz it's 3D. I wish they'd die.
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Re: The devastating flaw of Heroes V.

Unread postby DaemianLucifer » 13 Dec 2006, 17:47

Solipso wrote:The devastating flaw of Heroes V is its lack of perspective. Having to move the camera around is a nuisance. I got to the point where I was asking myself, “Why should I put up with this nuisance when there are two other versions of the game that don’t have it?”
Actually its 4 other versions :devious:

I do share your view that 3D is not essential for a game like heroes,and was implemented rather badly.But that doesnt mean that it cannot be better implemented though.

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Unread postby okrane » 13 Dec 2006, 20:12

Well... I don't find it that bothering... I find 3D to be a nice addition that doesn't change very much the fell of the game...

Maybe a little in the underground it is more difficult to spot stuff... but not so disturbing imo

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Unread postby Elvin » 13 Dec 2006, 20:30

I am mostly negative in turning a traditionally 2d series into 3d but I don't have a particular problem with H5.I still believe that they made it in an idiotic way in underground where 3d messes with gameplay but it's pretty enjoyable otherwise.Getting used to it didn't take long and the cltrl hotkey helps a lot in this.
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Unread postby Jandos » 13 Dec 2006, 20:31

"HoMM classic view" is your friend

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Unread postby Elvin » 13 Dec 2006, 20:35

You may find it strange but I prefer the default camera.A bit of rotating and glancing at the mini map makes me feel right at home :) Plus it looks better.
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Unread postby Angelspit » 13 Dec 2006, 20:53

I got used to the new view. Sometimes the results are spectacular.

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Unread postby TheUndeadKing » 13 Dec 2006, 23:03

To be honest, the new 3D view is one of the few good things I like in H5.
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Unread postby Lyan » 14 Dec 2006, 00:59

I totaly agree on a point, a game like heroes doesn't need the 3D, still the result is superb on H5. Except underground the 3D doesn't create any gaming problem. It's a bit like chess, you don't need splendidly sculpted ivory game, but it's a pleasure to play with it.
I played H3 for the last time 2 month before H5 been released, the old fashioned graphic will always please me as the game will always remain a wonder, but let's not bully Nival on one of the only thing they really mastered, the game is splendid, the ambiance is charming and addictive when Heroes4 looked so cold.

To people saying that a 2D game would have far less success, they re probably right, only the fans will buy it. And if only the old fans buy it, don't expect frequent patches, add ons ect...
Heroes 3 was more than technically decent in 1999, and lot of people which haven't even played H2 bought it. And now those people which loved h3 so much are not enthusiast about the 3D :) Guys i hope that i'll need a sensorial equipment to play heroes 9 :scared: ! it's the gaming and the mechanism that make me addict to this splendid game, awfull or beautiful as long as the graphism doen't mess with the gameplay i don't care.

I'll add that if some kids new to heroes bought it because of the graphism, and the UBISOFT written on it, and came to love it as much as i loved H2 when i first played it, I'm happy and just say well done to nival and Ubi.

Long Life to the might and the magic ! :yes:

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Unread postby winterfate » 14 Dec 2006, 03:43

Lyan wrote:
To people saying that a 2D game would have far less success, they re probably right, only the fans will buy it. And if only the old fans buy it, don't expect frequent patches, add ons ect...
Could be. However, at the same time, they wouldn't want to risk alienating the fans, would they? :-D Because if only the fans buy it, and they don't buy the add-ons because they hate the original product...then who do they have left?

Solipso wrote:
The devastating flaw of Heroes V is its lack of perspective. Having to move the camera around is a nuisance.
I agree. Takes a lot of effort to get used to it, and IMO, it adds nothing to the game. :)
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Unread postby admira99 » 14 Dec 2006, 10:32

the only flaw for Heroes (on its original release is bugs, I don't really mind with the 3d engine and sorta. But I DO care when I have to repeat the same mission 4 times just because of bugs (yeah, I'm talking about collecting 20 bone dragons objective).

The 3D, although my PC and I are not best friends with high-end requirement game. But I must admit, the heroes V environment is my favorite IMHO of course. the town, the world map, they are simply beautiful.

The gameplay, still IMHO is the best improvement of all heroes games, although I missed the H4 faction-based spell system but I must say that I am happy and enjoy so much Heroes V gameplay: Initiative, unique skills, abilities.

Creatures design... well, I bet anyone here has most hated creature and most favorite ones. For me, I hate Griffin especially the imperial ones with helmet btw. Dragon... doesn't feel like fearsome creature. Although I must admit there are some that I like: Pit Lord, Succubi (Which makes you wonder why the Inferno's heroes are soooo horny), Paladins, and Rakshasha.

Conclusion: Bugs, If I'm a game preview-er I will give Heroes V a worth of 6 with bugs and a worth of 8-9 without bugs. So, the biggest flaw in Heroes V is Bugs

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Unread postby Khelavaster » 14 Dec 2006, 19:08

I also think that the 3D visuals is one of the two points where HOMMV excels - the other one being the music.

However the glory and the freedom that the new perspective provides is rendered a bit moot when you have to be careful not to zoom out or tilt the camera too much due to the HORRENDOUS engine.

Same goes for the editor - don't go trigger happy with those trees, boys!

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Unread postby omegaweix » 15 Dec 2006, 12:42

In my opinion it wasn't a bad step per sè to implement 3D graphics in
Heroes 5, only the implementation could have been done better!
For example trees and stalactytes in underground. Those two object types cause much annoyance when trying to locate Heroes, ressources, dwellings and so on.... making the trees smaller and maybe even erase all stalactytes from caves would eliminate much of the harassment the camera gives me!
And a more fixed viewpoint (like in CIV4 for example) would be fine too,.. zooming in and out for a better overview but without the need of spinning the whole map all the time (personally i try to keep the cardinal points at default in every map i play)..

At the other hand bringing 3D into the battles is clearly an improvement in my eyes, it makes the battles and its participants looking fantastic and epic without causing any significant confusion when adjusing the PoV...
....zooming and twisting the camera is an optional extra for more pleasant views but not necessary and the default view is neither ugly nor is it impractical.

So, my conclusion is, 3Ds in battles: "Well done" but the scaling on the adventure map could benefit from a major overhaul.
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Unread postby aulfgar » 15 Dec 2006, 23:30

3D was the worst thing done to the HoMM series. HoMM4 started the whole 3D kick and that was a horrible game in the HoMM series, which sadly looked worse than the 2D graphics in 3. In HoMM 5 they managed to make the 3D look very nice, but at a huge resource cost for teh CPU and Graphics card... for a strategy game to take 4-10 minutes per turn is really bad. The AI needed to get some of the Eyecandy budget.

Anyhow just chiming in.

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Unread postby ThunderTitan » 16 Dec 2006, 00:29

aulfgar wrote:HoMM4 started the whole 3D kick and that was a horrible game in the HoMM series
Please hit your head against a wall a few times. HoMM4 WASN'T 3D.
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Unread postby aulfgar » 16 Dec 2006, 01:33

ThunderTitan wrote:
aulfgar wrote:HoMM4 started the whole 3D kick and that was a horrible game in the HoMM series
Please hit your head against a wall a few times. HoMM4 WASN'T 3D.
Right, thats why it had to have a high end graphics card for the time and slowed the game significantly. They went with 3D Rendering.

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Unread postby PhoenixReborn » 16 Dec 2006, 04:38

Well I've just begun playing age of wonders and I find the heroes V adventure map much more comprehensible. I found a hasteberry tree that looked just like every other one of the thousand trees in the forest...fortunately mousing over things tells you what they are. Sure I'll get used to it, but being 2d doesn't automatically make things easily visible.

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Unread postby DaemianLucifer » 16 Dec 2006, 05:23

PhoenixReborn wrote:Well I've just begun playing age of wonders and I find the heroes V adventure map much more comprehensible. I found a hasteberry tree that looked just like every other one of the thousand trees in the forest...fortunately mousing over things tells you what they are.
You mean something like searching for that invisible sylvanas ancients in HV?
PhoenixReborn wrote: Sure I'll get used to it, but being 2d doesn't automatically make things easily visible.
And being 3D and flashy doesnt always mean better and prettier :devious:


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