Fortress, advices needed :)

[Lyan]

Hello everyone, i m looking for some help on the fortress maybe advices from players which have their way with those lil stocky things.

I bought hoF last week, and as you can easily imagine i wanted to discover this new civilisation Since i am not very fond of campaigns, i tried em on some single scenario maps. I did my first two games on difficult, aware that i woul probably just be wipped away on heroic without even having the time to see the Tier 5 unit :p Well since it went pretty well on difficult i switched to heroic, and... i just can't find a way round. The best i seem able to do is retard my death. Right now i m pretty nervous about those little dwarves deciding to just quit my incompetent leadership and search for a better chief

basicly their main strenght is defense... but not HP, and certainly not attack. They have some interesting unique skills but beside the B. bears rides paw attack, i just can't seem to find proper use of em (unless they are useless).
My comprehension of the game has been somehow the higher the difficulty is the quicker you have to rush. Quite basic... but well proved to be succesfull with almost every other civilisation. but... Their first units are soooo lame when not upgraded that i alway end up waiting to have at least three uppgraded... which is about the time the comp got his t7 units...
Just before i came to writte this message i just witnessed 4/5 of my army being simply slaughtered by a nasty elf casting amplified armaggedon in chain... the lack of AP of my troops, the lack of attack of my hero (lvl 20 with 4 attack and 19 def...) gave me no solution but to watch the guy laughing at my defense with his nasty spells.

So i d like to hear some advices on the "first week" city build, and on some goo templates for my heroes. Thx a lot

[Sathasarus]

i've only played 2 games w/ the dwarfs but what i have learned is this:


the 1st week town build is pretty hard to mess it up.

get luck so u can get dwarven luck and soldiers luck (cripple)
get offense and defense so u can get their stack bonus and m.resistance

pick a magic last cause u got runes.

now just be that master of runes chick so u for sure get charging or rushing rune. datz it. oh yah starting off on day 1, look for gems

gl

[val-gaav]

If you want to rush with dwarves then you should go for war machines + balista + runic war machines (+3 to balista initiative)

dwarves have a 15% chance to get it so it's as certain as a demon lord geting logistic ...

[Elvin]

Well I can't advice you on heroic with dwarves,I just know basic stuff.
I certainly know they have a hard time creeping early.That's why I build shielguards on day 2,to be competitive.You can't lose many and they fare well against low lvl ranged and high speed creatures(at least for the first attack).
Along with skirmishers they can clear some neutrals easily.Of course in week 1 one needs runeguild 1,either rune of berserking or charge is of great help.
If you get lucky to build berserkers fast(about week 2) you have the perfect ranged killer:rune of charge and berserk rage kills almost anything.And they get to act first.Though you'd rather get thanes and runepriests first,unless you can find a gem mine early.

Considering dwarves are durable but not damage dealers defence and a couple of the above to boost damage outcome seem natural.
Starting skills should probably be:

Defence-Although you won't get the last uber abilty,I believe it pays off to get vitality.

Warmachines up to triple ballista if you get them early.WIth dwarves they are too good.

Luck of course.You can get soldier's luck for skirmishers and blackbear riders but dwarven luck is very good as well.The basic skill shines as dwarves don't do enough damage.

Destructive might do the trick.Especially if you get fireball,ignite will get its worth.Either that or light for mass buffs.
Somehow I feel runeguild is more of a priority than getting mageguild higher than lvl 3.

Edit:
Luck works wonders later too with thanes and rune of battle rage.Imagine them hitting 3 stacks with luck all the while the lighning damage striking adjacent creatures The no retaliation from the rune makes it all the better!
And armageddon with ignite is very suited to dwarves not only for fire dragon immunity.There's fireproof runepriests,rune of resurrection and the aforementioned dwarven luck.Considering the priests may also mark enemies...

[Lyan]

@ Elvin

I will try to take warmachines, which is normally a skill i don't use that much, hoping to get a lil boost of firepower in the early stages.

For the berseker, i m not sure, in fact i am not fond of this unit. They are so much a one time use unit ... Their high initiative added to a charge rune allow you to deal great damage to a single stack early in the fight but if you choose to do this you have to admit that you won't probably see em coming back from front... worst they got the AI Hate trick (you know it's the unit the AI HAVE to focus, like djins or blood fury) so they won't probably last that long, and do not much damage after their first strike. It could be interesting if you can support em with a resurection rune and spell, but the spell at least isn't available in the first stage of the game, and the rune is quite expensive.

About the ruch strat, it's not that i m really fond of it, i don't even use it that much in multi, but on heroic it has always seemed to me the only way, with computers killing e/o so quickly, if you dont act quick you have a good amount of chances to face a single enemy holding 3 or 4 towns in the begining of month 2 :/
So trying to do so with dwarves has proved to be very frustrating, trying to lead a siege early with your contemplating defenders, allmighty skirmishers, useless bear riders and "waiting for the next arrow" berzeker is as interesting as watchig mushrooms growing. You can focus your resource on having some runepriest early, so your berzeker can do nothing for one or two turns waiting for the defending shooters to honor them after they killed your priest.
Well a bit of destruction magic should help but it's not as if your 20 MP will let you kill the inevitable t7 units the comp incredibly managed to build on week 3. I'll give a try to warmachines, maybe it's part of the thing i m missing

About the hero, i will probably try to take more magic, destruction plus sorcery, added to warmachines leaves 2 possibility, i'll try luck and leadership (empathy added to sorcery could prove quite effective later on) or defense and leadership. Mmmh

[Elvin]

Actually I am mostly referring on lots of hunters/mages/marksmen etc situations.Berserkers I normally leave out unless I know I will be able to use their ability without losing them.Berserking with luck is just awesome but you NEED the rune of charge to make use of them.Otherwise they are not good hit&run units,nor melee tanks.At least you can hoard them.

[Mytical]

One key with the dwarves is the runes. Charge, the double attack, ressurrect, and dragonform especially (though the others can be useful). Skirmishers can delay the enemy and also reduce defense of them so this is a handy skill. The striking multi enemies of rune priests/patriarchs, the lightning hit from the warlords, the immunity of fire from their dragons (go ahead cast that fireball and let it hit them and your enemies, your dragon laughs..the enemy burns). One of the most overlooked skills is manaburst also. (more on this hero skill later). Here is some ways to really put the wow into the dwarves.

Enlightenment - arcane int - mentoring - Instant experience boost for extra hired dwarven heroes, what isn't to like about this?

Luck - MR + Dwarven luck, and if you want Soldiers Luck (they have a lot of specials soldiers luck is killer).

Defense - preparation..make the most out of their increadible defense.

Destructive - ignite and manaburst. Ok Lets go down the list of other towns and why manaburst stinks for them.

Haven - Archangles ressurect and Priests buffs now damage the creatures who cast these. 10xyour level...can get nasty . (you are 25th level they take 250 hp for every time they cast!)

Sylvan - Druids become less painful to deal with, sprites when they actually cast wasp swarm.

Academy - are you kidding me? Mages, titans, and should work on djinn but probably doesn't. Mages become just ranged or lots of em die every time they cast.

Necro - mostly liches.

Inferno - Pit critters

Dungeon - Shadow casting critters hehe.

What is more MR, defense, ect doesn't effect the skill so either the enemy regulates their caster to more mundane actions or you get free kills. Can't beat that. Even other dwarves (rune priests) are not immune. Your neutral stacks of casters become your best friends too. Hehehe.

And feel free to add the other skill of your choice (or two).

[Jolly Joker]

You need an Ammo Cart and Runes. You don't need the Skirmisher upgrade badly because the shooters are intended to slow the opposition down and make them lose init, especially later on when you are attacking.
Shieldguard upgrade pays well as those can be used with great effect as shield walls against fast units like Blood Furies. Lastly you need the Blackbear Riders. Don't hesitate to use them. Their damage is not high, again it's their special that counts. Try 2 stacks of them and use them like you'd use Paladins. The trick with the Dwarves is to rob creatures of Init and speed. An ideal fight sees the opposing creatures not acting at all after they are in range.
For shooters or casters as opponents Thanes are a solution only on lower diff because on higher diff you'll need the mines those casters/shooters are guarding to even get them.
The solution here is only Rune Magic.
1) You get the Rune of Charge. Case closed. Use it on the Blackbear Riders and later on Brawlers.
2) You get the Rune of Berserking instead. This one will help you a lot in tough fights against very big walkers stacks, but not against shooter/casters.
Here you have to build the next level of your Runic Guild and will get either
a) Rune of Elemental Immunity. This MAY help against casters like Druids (but not necessarily so)
b)Rune of Etherrealness. This MAY help against shooters.
If it doesn't work out with a and b The Rune of Resurrection will help a bit at least.

For Hero development generally (not at start) the defense combo with Protection Defensive Formation and Preparation is a killer.
Destructive Magic stands and falls with getting Fireball in the Mage Guild, because the Dwarves excel only in Fire Magic. If you have either Eldritch Arrow or Ice Bolt get Destructive only after you know that you'll get Fireball and not Frost Ring.
Basic Enlightenment is a great skill to learn at a later stage to give a massive stat boost. Mentoring is great when you need good secondary heroes, however, you'll need the full skill set for that one and it won't help you much in the beginning.
Leadership is HIGHLY recommended to get.
The same is true for Light Magic. It's more dependable than Destructive.
Logistics is very good with Pathfinding Snatch and Swift Mind if you can get it. Swift Mind in combination with Rune of Charge virtually guarantees no losses against dangerous neutrals, but again you need the full Logistics set to get it, so it's nothing for the beginning.
Luck is HIGHLY recommended.
Offense is HIGHLY Recommended.
Sorcery, Dark and Summoning won't help you that much, even though Runic Armour is a pretty cool ability for Summoning.
And lastly, yes, War Machines is HIGHLY recommended.

[Mytical]

Hmm so I am the only person who gets Destructive for the Manaburst also (as well as the other perks). Everybody talks about how hard casting neutrals are, this pretty much eleminates the casting creature threat. Sure it is not extreamly useful all the time, but if you can get it quick enough it can be a tremendous help. (creeping becomes a lot easier). Sure ignite is worthless without fireball, but even if your town doesn't get it, shrines or even your enemies towns might (yay academy for helping the dwarves). I do think some more fire based spells would be nice though . Soldiers luck is a viable alternative to the MR-dwarven luck route (they have a lot of units that can really benifit from this) and even runes of thunderclap can benifit. So you could take all three MR, SL, and Resource and really rock and roll .

Other then that I agree with JJ's assessment. Of course I am an odd bird .

[Jolly Joker]

The trouble with casters is that 15 will do more or less the same damage than 12, and 3 times 12 will do an inacceptable damage. That's why Mana Burst helps, but not much. You cannot take the mines when your Dwarf is level 12 or so. You need to take it ALOT earlier.
About Luck, I didn't specify a certain route because I agree with you that it doesn't matter much which abilities you get there.

[Mytical]

True it helps in much bigger maps more, large or higher. And don't forget that almost all other towns have caster creatures also. It can really wreck havoc then. Your opponit has to choose between giving you free kills or not using their creatures spells. Since MR doesn't effect this even Miniartifacts from like Academy does nothing to limit this or slow it down. So it is just about always useful..even at level 12. That is just my personal taste; however.

[Lyan]

first of all ty everyone for the answers, i m a french player but the french community is somehow sleepy and small :p

As i said in my second post my real problems come on leading sieges in the early stages of the games. On heroic u know that you'll probably be outnumbered in those first encounters, with my favorites armies i found some way to go around that, and still be succesfull early on. But with dwarves ... That's why i'am willing to try a bit of destruction in my hero, mytical got some good points (even if mentoring excite me less than him :p)

ty to jolly as well for making me see something interesting. I will prbably leave the combo sorcery+ empathy, and just rely on morale and empathy for hero ATB boost, this should allow me to take luck, and dwarven luck.

Anyway thx a lot guys, i m going to try some of those right now, be back to tell you how good it was :p

[Elvin]

Actually it's 'her'

[Mytical]

Ah it's not a big deal, him/her/it doesn't matter what ya call me (as long as it's not late for dinner). Also remember differnt people benifit from different things for the skills. JJ's skills are what he finds useful, while i find a different set useful, all a matter of taste.

[Shauku]

Manaburst is a nice way to get away with divided stacks of Druids, Mages etc... or atleast prevent them from casting when the opponent figures out whats taking those stacks down

[Lyan]

I m sorry lady, and sorry furthermore because any call for dinner will be late due the fact i live in europe

Give you feedback when i'll got some !

[Mirez]

eeum my advises:
get runelore level 1 quick, cause with a little luck you get the rune wich allows a creature to walks twice his normal speed (great vs archers)

keep you eye on gems and try to get a gem mine real soon so you can quick build thanes (their dwelling is 20 gems!)

also early in the game you should split your spear throwers up so you have more chance to cripple an opponent

bersekers suck...
bear riders rule...

also I prefer to build the rune priest dwelling not or when your town is compleatly compleated

[Mightor Magic]

Everyone has their own playing style. Too bad much of it seems to come down to "Get Rune of Charge".

Ok, here's mine, without using the Charge rune. It depends on which hero you start with. Bear Rider starts with Attack and Tactics and will get very strong if she can also get Light magic/RM or Haste. Spearwielder starts with the better Luck/Soldier's Luck combo but he will never be as good but he starts off better. Destructive magic is not a bad idea for him if you can get a good Knowledge base and really slow enemies {Slow enemies do not work with Ignite but other basic Destructive magic will kill them}.

The "AutoRune dispensing machine" hero is great as a secondary hero with Enlightenment and Scholar {Trades Runes for some reason} and with some good sources of bonus experience, will easily replace any missing Runes from the first circle.

I always pick Rune priests over Thanes and Bersekers. One, they are cheaper, two, they help get Fortress closer to the capitol with the bonus building which only costs 1500, three, they start with the Mark of Fire skill which also gets a boost from Soldier's Luck, four, they attack multiple enemies that stand side by side, five {They are much, much better than Brawlers, by the way}, they are a ranged unit with a lot of HPs that unlike the Spearguys, actually do damage.

Come to think about it, I pick Magma Drakes over Thanes and Brawlers as well. Getting 20 gems is just a pain. Maybe if Thanes were cheaper...

[Jolly Joker]

Just for info. Dwarven resource costs will be changed. Crystals will be more of an issue while Gems will be less, so I don't think the resource situation will be that difficult in future versions.

[Lyan]

oky doky guys. here's a feedback on your advice.
First to say i tries it out on a very painfull map, which was a bad idea. (the map in question is called "reunion" in french which could be translated by "meeting").
I ve picked up the bear riders hero (ebba), and tried to inspire on your ideas for the template. Atk-dest-Lead-Def-logistics. I m not very satisfied with logistics, and was waiting for luck, but well at this time of the game a boost to my moove point was something appreciated anyway.
I made a good start, and had the great luck to find another dwarven town next to my starting one, the siege was something painfull, but the destr magic gave me the sufficient power boost to minimize my loss.
Anyway i ended up loosing the map heads up against a nasty opponent who simply wipped all the other comp in a somehow incredible short amount of time. But still this time my loss was due to mistakes in general gaming, not on the dwarven civ Still the decisive battle was something frustrating with one of his main hero (IMO on heroic the fact the comp can grow 4 or 5 while you hardly grow one or 2, is a real pain) using asservissment in chain and me having nothing to improve him from doing so.
Next time i'll score a win ! :p or i hope