The Three Rules of Nival

The new Heroes games produced by Ubisoft. Please specify which game you are referring to in your post.

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The Three Rules of Nival

Postby Angelspit » Dec 7 2006, 16:07

You gotta love Final Boss' signatures on the official forum:

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Postby Elvin » Dec 7 2006, 17:22

Hehe :-D Painfully true!
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Postby Odolwa » Dec 7 2006, 17:30

Haha, so true!
Making Nival new producers of Heroes was probably the worst mistake in human history.

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Postby DaemianLucifer » Dec 7 2006, 18:09

:rofl: I love it!

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Postby ThunderTitan » Dec 7 2006, 18:18

Too bad the RT doesn't allow banners in our sigs.
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Postby Mirez » Dec 7 2006, 18:18

:-D
treants are dendrosexual 0_o

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Postby Sir_Toejam » Dec 7 2006, 22:10

so russians have flapping heads just like canadians?

who knew!

;)

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Postby Demiurg » Dec 8 2006, 0:13

Odolwa wrote:Making Nival new producers of Heroes was probably the worst mistake in human history.


OK, I'm new to Heroes and this forum, but I've kind of noticed a certain, ahem, disappointment from diehard HoMM-fans regarding the latest installment. It's my first game in the series and I only play singleplayer - halfway through the campaign - but I have to say that I love it so far. Solid, gorgeous graphics and brilliant, deep gameplay. So enlighten me - perhaps with links to threads on the matter: what's so awful about it?

On a side note - this year's two favorite games for me is Oblivion and now HoMM V, two of the most flamed releases of 2006. Guess my taste sucks...

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Postby DaemianLucifer » Dec 8 2006, 0:52

Ok,you asked for it:

First,they decided to destroy the whole world of previous 4 heroes,and 9 M&M games(not to mention a few spinoff games).A reasonable decision though,because that world became quite tough to follow.But you know how nostalgia is like.People got tied to old heroes and creatures,so its tough for them to accept new things.Even though most of them wont admit it.

Second,the 4th heroes sequel came out too early and was extremelly buggy,so peoples lost faith in the game,and the series was hanging on a thin thread.The news of the 5th sequel were excelent for us,but we also had worries that the fiasco would repeat itself.Naturally,when the game came out as bugged as it was,people lost faith and thought that the error was repeating itself.

Third,there were lots of improvements in the 4th sequel(let me just mention the caravans and the fog of war),but some features were porrly implemented(heroes on the battlefield).Nival decided to disregard all of these features,both the good ones and the bad ones.This was a very bad decision,because lots of those stuff were excelent.Thus the cry for caravans,and other features.

Fourth,to further down the enragment of the fans,features from the third instalment were removed as well.Some of the buttons and screens were removed along with text bubbles which were excelent way of presenting the story,and the reason they gave was "speeding up of the gameplay".This would all pass,if not for bringing in features that slow down the gameplay(non flagable windmills,non acumulating dwellings,memory leak,loooong load times,etc,etc).

All of the above couldve been disregarded if the game had some good story and if the animations and voice acting were at least good.Sadly,this wasnt the case.

To go even further,the release of the game wasnt very smooth either.Let me just mention the wait american players had to endure,and all the limmited editions that brought nothing astonishing.Also,the communication and the patching of the game were horrible,to say the least.

One of the things above wouldnt be that bad on its own,but all of them combined,and you get a feeling of big unproffesionalism.Thus all the good things that were brought were mostly disregarded.

And to add a few personal things here,it is ubisoft that bought the series,and its a company thats not very user friendly in my eyes.

But dont get me wrong,the game is good on its own.However,it stands as a sequel to the series which was excelent even in its worst installment,so being just good simply doesnt cut it.

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Postby Humakt » Dec 8 2006, 2:00

There were awfully lot of senseless whining when Heroes 4 first came, pretty much disliking every aspect of the game. It indeed is usually the "hardcore fans" that do the most whining, and that concerns about every game.

I personally have played HoMM series since HoMM2 and have liked every new installment better than the former, and this is true at least to some degree with HoMM 5. Map Editor is a big thing for me, and I've been fairly disappointed with HoMM5's editor. But the game itself has been great experience especially with HoF, which is IMO the best expansion HoMM games have had.

DaemianLucifer wrote:Ok,you asked for it:

First,they decided to destroy the whole world of previous 4 heroes,and 9 M&M games(not to mention a few spinoff games).A reasonable decision though,because that world became quite tough to follow.But you know how nostalgia is like.People got tied to old heroes and creatures,so its tough for them to accept new things.Even though most of them wont admit it.


NWC destroyed the old world with Heroes 4 as well, which was actually a big gripe for some people. Doesn't matter to me though.

Third,there were lots of improvements in the 4th sequel(let me just mention the caravans and the fog of war),but some features were porrly implemented(heroes on the battlefield).Nival decided to disregard all of these features,both the good ones and the bad ones.This was a very bad decision,because lots of those stuff were excelent.Thus the cry for caravans,and other features.


The new caravan system with HoF is pretty elegant and actually better than Heroes 4's equivalent, since you can gather caravans with your heroes or attack enemy caravans while they are enroute.

Fourth,to further down the enragment of the fans,features from the third instalment were removed as well.Some of the buttons and screens were removed along with text bubbles which were excelent way of presenting the story,and the reason they gave was "speeding up of the gameplay".This would all pass,if not for bringing in features that slow down the gameplay(non flagable windmills,non acumulating dwellings,memory leak,loooong load times,etc,etc).


Dwellings accumulate in HoF at least. I guess the patches has changed it. Nival/Ubisoft have made lots of bad decisions I agree; no scripts for multiplayer maps is one of the worst for me.

All of the above couldve been disregarded if the game had some good story and if the animations and voice acting were at least good.Sadly,this wasnt the case.


I actually liked the campaigns despite those faults, and the faults weren't so glaring to me. Scripts and varied victory conditions, especially running from enemy, made campaigns actually refreshing to play. I think the Nival's maps in general are at least better than NWC's maps in general.

Ps. I don't know why people whine about Oblivion, IMO Morrowind was nothing to write home about.

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Postby DaemianLucifer » Dec 8 2006, 2:25

Humakt wrote:But the game itself has been great experience especially with HoF, which is IMO the best expansion HoMM games have had.


But its the first impression thats the most important.No matter how great the expansion is,the first impression of an unfinished game will stay a long time.

Humakt wrote:NWC destroyed the old world with Heroes 4 as well, which was actually a big gripe for some people. Doesn't matter to me though.


No,they destroyed the planet,but all the main characters survived.Ubival,however,destroyed the whole universe.

Humakt wrote:The new caravan system with HoF is pretty elegant and actually better than Heroes 4's equivalent, since you can gather caravans with your heroes or attack enemy caravans while they are enroute.


I also heard that it suffers from pathfinding.And,again,as mentioned above,the first impression is the most important.Caravans werent included in the original,and thats a big minus.

Humakt wrote:Dwellings accumulate in HoF at least. I guess the patches has changed it. Nival/Ubisoft have made lots of bad decisions I agree; no scripts for multiplayer maps is one of the worst for me.


:up:

Humakt wrote:I actually liked the campaigns despite those faults, and the faults weren't so glaring to me. Scripts and varied victory conditions, especially running from enemy, made campaigns actually refreshing to play. I think the Nival's maps in general are at least better than NWC's maps in general.


True,maps were nice.But story is just as important,and that one was bad.Not just the story itself,but its presentation too.Plus the campaigns werent much of a chalenge for seasoned players.

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Postby zuraffo » Dec 8 2006, 3:16

despite all its fault, I enjoyed HoMMV quite a bit. To be honest, whoever can claim they were every satisfied with the first release of a game. ;| (Besides game from Blizzard of course.)

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Postby DaemianLucifer » Dec 8 2006, 3:39

zuraffo wrote:despite all its fault, I enjoyed HoMMV quite a bit. To be honest, whoever can claim they were every satisfied with the first release of a game. ;| (Besides game from Blizzard of course.)


Civ I and II I played only the original releases(I doubt there was any other version for 1),and I enjoyed originals for III and IV as well.Also,I enjoyed the original MKII.

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Postby asandir » Dec 8 2006, 7:49

I can claim many games that I was happy with .... BG series, HII and HIII, and the list gets bigger, but it's not just ubisoft anymore .... it's most producers that release unfinished games
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Postby Humakt » Dec 8 2006, 7:51

zuraffo wrote:despite all its fault, I enjoyed HoMMV quite a bit. To be honest, whoever can claim they were every satisfied with the first release of a game. ;| (Besides game from Blizzard of course.)


Is that a joke? Because it certainly doesn't make any sense to me. Most games I've played their first release has been more than satisfactory.

Besides ~10 years back patching was almost extinct, not like patching eternal! it nowadays (in last 7 years or so) seem to be.

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Postby Demiurg » Dec 8 2006, 8:02

DaemianLucifer wrote:Ok,you asked for it...


Heh, thanks for taking the time to make such a thorough case. Can't really debate this, of course, as I can't compare it to the former games in the series. In fact, it saddens me that I probably never will play HoMM III, because of its limited resolution, as it seems to be a real classic. The same goes for the Fallout-series and Planetscape Torment for example.

Just a little bit surprised that you criticize the animations, which together with the monster modelling I find excellent. Even after watching it hundreds of times, I still smile when watching the little buggers do their victory dances for example. Also, I'm a newbie playing it on normal, but is it really that easy on heroic?

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Postby Jolly Joker » Dec 8 2006, 9:03

I wouldn't mind too much about all this talk, either one way or the other.
It's the 5th game in a long series. It's like the Bond movies got a new Bond actor - some will approve and some not.
Naturally, when you are in the 5th installment there's always the clash between what and how much to keep from the old games and what to bring in as new. That means, there will always be those who miss something that was left out on one hand, while there will be complaints on the other about not being inventive enough. Add to that the fact, that the "fans" will always have something like their own vision about how the game should develop, and it's clear that discussions will be highly controversial.
The only thing you CAN do as a developer, then, is try and give content, depth and a solid performance, so that the game is technically as flawless as possible, and clearly the game left something to desire here. The manual is terrible - which for me is very important because the manual is the most visible difference between a downloaded product (legally or not) and the real thing bought in a shop. Some things were not working properly - not really the Developer's fault in some instances; the mp synchronization problems, for example are mostly due to ubi.com technical changes and so on. As will all things everything has two sides: At this point the game is still massively worked on. Patch 1.5 will be a very major one bringing again new stuff and changing again major game elements. Now, you can say, this is bad because the game should be a finished product upon selling, and you can say it is good because it shows they still are interested, they are intent to make it work and they don't hesitate to admit a mistake and change it when they see one. That's very obviously up to each and everyone to determine for themselves.
Since it is a game and no -ism the bottom line is: how much fun do you have when playing it? If you HAVE fun, don't let yourself tell you otherwise from some people who don't. On the other hand, if you don't have fun, don't let yourself tell that you should have from those who do.

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Postby Adicto » Dec 8 2006, 10:00

Who would have imagined that a GIF made of 136 frames could bring this kind of discussion?

The people can complaint about design, game mechanics, the plot, etc., but almost everybody get used to changes or new concepts. The true disappointment begins when players have to suffer huge catastrophic bugs after 4 delayed patches + one addon.

The people want a finished, totally functional product, not a neverending wave of defective stuff; such things only brings "more wood to the flames".

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Postby Orfinn » Dec 8 2006, 10:23

In your face Nival :devious: :D

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Postby DaemianLucifer » Dec 8 2006, 12:03

Demiurg wrote:Just a little bit surprised that you criticize the animations, which together with the monster modelling I find excellent. Even after watching it hundreds of times, I still smile when watching the little buggers do their victory dances for example. Also, I'm a newbie playing it on normal, but is it really that easy on heroic?


Oh no,those animations are quite good.I was talking about the campaing cut scenes.And while creature animations are goo,their style isnt all that fine and dandy.They are too shiney,and too chubby.Check the evolution polls to see how others looked like.As for the graphics,the major flaw is that its so demanding,yet offers something a couple of years old.Plus the camera isnt all that userfriendly.


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