Test the MMR in No man's land——Heroic level

The new Heroes games produced by Ubisoft. Please specify which game you are referring to in your post.

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Postby fly away » Nov 29 2006, 21:12

Jolly Joker wrote:.
Yrwanna will give you 6 more Furies than any other hero. Her special plus Basic Enlightenment will make sure that those Furies will have a massive damage output very early which is the point here.

Similar can be said about Vayshan. He starts with about 25 scouts, that can be upgraded to assasins faster than flurries, so he can deal with walkers as well as with shooters. Plus, he has luck - another essential skill for warlock, which after 2-3 levelups can become warlock's luck.

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Postby Sir_Toejam » Nov 29 2006, 21:15

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote:I think dwarves can also counter the strategy. Their level 1-3 units are all sturdy with good specials. Rune magic also gives some great magic and it will be very easy for the dwarf to become expert at his runes and use his powerful special far sooner than the wizard can.

GOW


oh yeah, if you get the charge rune in your first level guild, once you've built blackbear riders, shooters are no longer much of an issue.

damn, that paw strike is useful.

I'm beginning to lean towards the blackbear rider as being the key unit to the dwarven faction. like hunters for elves.

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Jolly Joker
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Postby Jolly Joker » Nov 29 2006, 21:42

fly away wrote:
Jolly Joker wrote:.
Yrwanna will give you 6 more Furies than any other hero. Her special plus Basic Enlightenment will make sure that those Furies will have a massive damage output very early which is the point here.

Similar can be said about Vayshan. He starts with about 25 scouts, that can be upgraded to assasins faster than flurries, so he can deal with walkers as well as with shooters. Plus, he has luck - another essential skill for warlock, which after 2-3 levelups can become warlock's luck.

You are welcome to try it. It's important, though, what we are talking about: PICKING Vayshan as your hero in question and getting a random second? No chance. Or PICKING Yrwanna and getting Vayshan randomly in the Tavern and switching to him. That would be an option.

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Postby fly away » Nov 29 2006, 21:56

Jolly Joker wrote:PICKING Vayshan as your hero in question and getting a random second? No chance.
Why not?

Or PICKING Yrwanna and getting Vayshan randomly in the Tavern and switching to him. That would be an option.
That would be too lucky :-) but you can't have all at once usually. Though, once I had two dungeon heroes in the tavern on first day, including Yrwanna. That was a jumpstart....

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Postby okrane » Nov 29 2006, 21:58

fly away wrote:
Jolly Joker wrote:.
Yrwanna will give you 6 more Furies than any other hero. Her special plus Basic Enlightenment will make sure that those Furies will have a massive damage output very early which is the point here.

Similar can be said about Vayshan. He starts with about 25 scouts, that can be upgraded to assasins faster than flurries, so he can deal with walkers as well as with shooters. Plus, he has luck - another essential skill for warlock, which after 2-3 levelups can become warlock's luck.


I doubt that assasins can do the same thing as furies. I mean with blood furies you can hit and run slow targets that way killing huge numbers of them, they have a great initiative, and a great speed. Assasins are good, but they are mostly for poisoning. Since at distant ranges they do only 1/4 of their damage vayshan's special doesn't add that much, since x assasins will deal x poison damage under any hero.
The 25 extra assasins in the begining are good, but not crucial...

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Postby PhoenixReborn » Nov 29 2006, 22:26

I've seen everyone and their mother on this forum complain "oh resource costs are too high for Academy" "Too much wood is need for Sylvan (it definitely was too much 1.3)"...etc. Insert your favorite faction.

Now it's my turn to complain. I feel like Dungeon is much more dependent on crystal than on sulfur. After all you get sulfur in your resource silo which is fine...and you can usually find a mine.

I was playing dragon pass on normal and even though I got my crystal mine as early as possible I couldn't even get dragons (15 crystal basic and 15 crystal upgrade) because of all the crystal I needed for upgrades and mages guild and the altar of elements (very useful building). The Dragons aren't that strong or even if they are they aren't that numerous. Waah! I want my dragons.

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Postby okrane » Nov 29 2006, 22:32

that's kind of an offtopic isn't it?
and I agree that getting dragons is pretty hard

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Postby fly away » Nov 29 2006, 22:34

okrane wrote: Assasins are good, but they are mostly for poisoning. Since at distant ranges they do only 1/4 of their damage vayshan's special doesn't add that much, since x assasins will deal x poison damage under any hero.
The 25 extra assasins in the begining are good, but not crucial...
Well.
1. Vayshan starts with luck, so add bonuses to combat (and a bit later spell) damage.
2. You normally buy a second hero and unless it's Kythra you'll get a few blood maidens anyways, so you'll still be able to do hit-and-run, it will be just a bit slower.
3. You get get upgraded level 1 dwelling earlier than level 2's one. Before you upgrade maidens to furies and get tactics, they are pretty useless.

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Postby DaemianLucifer » Nov 29 2006, 22:40

fly away wrote:3. You get get upgraded level 1 dwelling earlier than level 2's one. Before you upgrade maidens to furies and get tactics, they are pretty useless.


Not necesarrilly.Furries are pretty important and upgrading them before assassins isnt so uncommon.It does cost more,but it also brings in quite a lot.

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Postby okrane » Nov 29 2006, 22:42

I propose you try the strategy with this guy... No man's land Herois 5 week play... If you can do it... then I guess you have a valid point.

But concerning MY gameplay with dungeon assasins don't play an important role.

The thing about dungeon is to lose very few units, since you don't have so many.And I doubt you can beat archers with assasins without losing stuff. They are good to have in a final battle, but to be useful you have to have many(that's why I save them)... and if you use them agains creeps you will lose some IMO. Plus assasins are kind of useless against undead.

Anyway... I provided info about how I use creatures in creeping... Tell me how do you use your assasins?

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Postby fly away » Nov 29 2006, 22:52

okrane wrote:But concerning MY gameplay with dungeon assasins don't play an important role.

I don't argue about the usefulness of blood furies or assasins, I argue with the statement that Yrwanna is the only valuable hero choice for Dungeon.
Last edited by fly away on Nov 29 2006, 22:53, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby DaemianLucifer » Nov 29 2006, 22:53

Assassins are supporters.They kill off the extra few creatures that would otherwise hurt you.And the thing about dungeon is not to lose any units at all.

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Postby fly away » Nov 29 2006, 22:59

DaemianLucifer wrote:
fly away wrote:3. You get get upgraded level 1 dwelling earlier than level 2's one. Before you upgrade maidens to furies and get tactics, they are pretty useless.

Not necesarrilly.

Not necessarily what? That blood maidens are useless? Or that you can (don't have to) upgrade level 1 faster than level 2? Or that without tactics (or certain artifacts) you can't deal with shooters and casters even with blood furies? What exactly are you arguing with? :-)


Furries are pretty important and upgrading them before assassins isnt so uncommon.
You'd be surprized but that's what I usually do :-) Depending on what creatures I get guarding mines, of course.

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Postby okrane » Nov 29 2006, 23:03

fly away wrote:
okrane wrote:But concerning MY gameplay with dungeon assasins don't play an important role.

I don't argue about the usefulness of blood furies or assasins, I argue with the statement that Yrwanna is the only valuable hero choice for Dungeon.


Sinitar could be another choice. But his special has been nerfed or smth in 1.4 since before this patch his emp spells would reach the cost of normal ones at lvl 15 or so... now it is not the case. Anyway he is strong early on but his lower mana cost is balanced by the fact that Yrwana has Inteligence

Eruina also has a good skill set. Destructive and attack are dungeon main skills, but her special is no good. Maybe much later when you have 50 Matriarchs or so she would be better. But personally I never seen this in a custom game.

Vayshan like I said doesn't boost asassins' damage that much because they do 1/4 damage at range. If you want to use them in melee it would be better but you would lose much more of them. He is inferior to the other three

Irbeth - dark magic + a useless special

Lethos - an interesting hero, tested him once... he has some potential... still it is an unconventional hero

Kythra - excelent castle sitter - 'nuff said

I hope I covered them all... If there are any heroes left I think they are so useless I don't even remember them...
So there you go... this is what I think about dungeon heroes...

Quote:
Furries are pretty important and upgrading them before assassins isnt so uncommon.
You'd be surprized but that's what I usually do :-) Depending on what creatures I get guarding mines, of course.


well... share with us how you beat them with assasins :D
Last edited by okrane on Nov 29 2006, 23:06, edited 3 times in total.

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DaemianLucifer
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Postby DaemianLucifer » Nov 29 2006, 23:03

@fly away
If you didnt separate the quote,youd get your answers to your first few questions.
Last edited by DaemianLucifer on Nov 29 2006, 23:08, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby fly away » Nov 29 2006, 23:07

DaemianLucifer wrote:If you didnt separate the quote,youd get your answer to your first few questions.
Yes, but only if you had commented on what I actually wrote rather than just saying something obvious to anyone.

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Postby fly away » Nov 29 2006, 23:21

okrane wrote:well... share with us how you beat them with assasins :D

Did I say that I 'd usually buy a second hero? :-)
I think I did.

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Postby Jolly Joker » Nov 30 2006, 8:25

PhoenixReborn wrote:I've seen everyone and their mother on this forum complain "oh resource costs are too high for Academy" "Too much wood is need for Sylvan (it definitely was too much 1.3)"...etc. Insert your favorite faction.

Now it's my turn to complain. I feel like Dungeon is much more dependent on crystal than on sulfur. After all you get sulfur in your resource silo which is fine...and you can usually find a mine.

I was playing dragon pass on normal and even though I got my crystal mine as early as possible I couldn't even get dragons (15 crystal basic and 15 crystal upgrade) because of all the crystal I needed for upgrades and mages guild and the altar of elements (very useful building). The Dragons aren't that strong or even if they are they aren't that numerous. Waah! I want my dragons.


Well, life is hard. You have to make choices.

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Postby asandir » Nov 30 2006, 8:40

I think all the factions have some dependencies, and on some maps they will hamstring you more then others, and unfortunately, as JJ said, that's when you have to make choices, and I think this is a good thing cause it forces strategy changes and the like
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Postby Banedon » Dec 2 2006, 15:31

I finally found the time to do my own test on No Man's Land.

Scenario: No Man's Land.
Race: Sylvan.
Hero: Ossir.
Bonus: Resource.
Time Limit: I'd originally intended to play to the fifth week, but by the third week there were overly serious encounters with enemy heroes and so it no longer is a fair test. All the below happened at Day 1 Week 3.

Results:

Level 11 Ossir with Advanced Avenger, Imbue Arrow, Deadeye Shot, Advanced Luck (with Magic Resistance and Soldier's Luck), Expert Logistics, Advanced Enlightenment.

31 Master Hunters
42 Sprites
19 Blade Dancers
8 Elder Druids

Others: A heck load of reloads. In fact, at least 50 of them.
Screenshots: None, though they can be gotten easily if anyone wants them.

Analysis: This isn't a fair test - I reloaded very very often, and I achieved some things in battle which no one could possibly have done on his / her first try. This allowed me to expand fast, move at blazing pace and thus end up with the (very powerful) army above for the start of week 3. However, if this were discounted, then I would almost certainly have built up a more powerful army than Nur, though beating Nur in a battle is a different matter.

I'm wont to conclude that this makes MMR a thoroughly viable and good strategy. Without my constant reloads, MMR builds a strong counter that does not allow an instant conclusion of 'this army is stronger'. MMR can definitely hold its own early and well into mid-game. Whether it can rule late-game is something I don't know, but mid-game dominance can very well translate into late-game victories. Does the strategy make Academy the strongest MP race? I doubt it, but it certainly makes Academy fine to play.


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