Test the MMR in No man's land——Heroic level

The new Heroes games produced by Ubisoft. Please specify which game you are referring to in your post.

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raistlinz
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Postby raistlinz » Nov 29 2006, 7:48

To stefan.urlus:

ok, I see your point, and I can't agree more.

This test is a feedback to a player in aoh who assert that the MMR only works on a rich map.

One problem each time, ok? I said I'll try it this weekend, and even more players in our bbs will try it too. In fact, the quarterfinal could be fierce because someone suggest that we should let the battle between academy heros(nur/jhora/havez,etc), if you can wait till then I'm pretty sure you can see what you want to see.
Last edited by raistlinz on Nov 29 2006, 7:53, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby asandir » Nov 29 2006, 7:51

I hope so, and thanks for taking up the challenge against a real (good) player too :D
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Postby Jolly Joker » Nov 29 2006, 8:11

Actually it can't be a killer strategy.

I think we must make a difference between a game under certain conditions and any game on any map.

Under certain conditions it can be a killer strategy because in this case on that specific map after a certain amount of time there may not be a more powerful combination of hero, magic and creatures possible (but give it a week more the Haven hero might easily have won his battle, for example). You'd play to maximize your power up to a certain point.

On any map, though, the aim is to get as much "resources" (including gold) as fast as possible (to be able to build as much and as effectively as possible). That means, you have to find the best way for each town to do that and that depends on the layout of the map. If you find all mines guarded by Zombies and play a relatively large map, since you'd be able to kill them all with Gremlins only, you'd go for creatures first and magic later.

Normally you have to find the most effective way to take everything in your vicinity as fast and effectively (not losing too much) as possible, and here it' a long known truth that creatures will take Academy only so far. With Academy it's easy to see that the solution isn't to be found in some x level creature. Genies for example won't help you against Elder Druids or Succubi Mistresses, as won't Rakshasas because they are all too slow. So it is clear that the solution is to be found EITHER in the Mini-Artifacts (more speed and init) OR in the mage guilds OR in a combination of both, and if you cannot take a desparately needed mine by building a certain creature dwelling but will be able to by applying artifacts or higher level magic to what you have and foregoing the building of the creature dwelling than you simply have to do it.

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Postby asandir » Nov 29 2006, 8:15

Under certain conditions it can be a killer strategy because in this case on that specific map after a certain amount of time there may not be a more powerful combination of hero, magic and creatures possible (but give it a week more the Haven hero might easily have won his battle, for example). You'd play to maximize your power up to a certain point.


a very good point, and in fact, the whole post is pretty spot on JJ

the time limit definately makes it a more useful strategy I would say
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Postby Jolly Joker » Nov 29 2006, 9:20

Another thing to keep in mind is, that with those special victory conditions the Academy player is driven "naturally" to the "good" strategy. However, a game on heroic that will end after 5 weeks (and therefore you'll need to make a serious conquest attempt IN week 5, not after that), won't allow ANY of the other towns to crank out a complete and optimized set of creatures. Necropolis, for instance, cannot raise the necessary resources to build everything (that's impossible), which means you need a good plan of what can be done in 4 weeks as well. In fact everyone needs such a plan. You'll have to be able to buy what you produced, and since hero development is limited as well you need a clear vision of what you need and need to know.
I think that these conditions favor the Academy because they need to capitalize "only" on their natural strategy. The others must find the best way under that conditions and may easily err. Take for example Haven: my initial idea would be to go for the griffin and squire upgrade only (in the beginning), get Riders and then train the peasants and see what money will be available for Marksmen/Inquisitor upgrade. However, this could easily be wrong and badly timed. The hero would have to acquire expert Light Magic and light magic abilities.
And so on. So these special conditions need special play for eacxh of the towns as well.

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Postby asandir » Nov 29 2006, 9:25

And that brings up another good point, I would imagine that there is an optimal method of 5 week super rush or whatever for each faction, a best path for early game domination as it were, perhaps they won't all be excellent, depending on faction and starting circumstances, but I could imagine a pretty handy inferno build with gating for early dominance ... it just requires people with time and patience to get it right, and then try it against decent opposition

I just wish I had the time to do it
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Postby okrane » Nov 29 2006, 9:39

what does MMR stand for?

Seeing how you've done it, it occurs to me that the same thing can be done with dungeon. Blood Furies and Hydras are all you need, and you can creep everything and reech a really high experience level.

I usually don't take summoning magic, I mostly use destructive since I like my build:
Exp Destructive-> M of Ice, Secrets of destr
Luck -> Warlocks luck,
Attack -> tactics speed retribution
Enlightment-> intelligence
Sorcery-> arcane insight for phantom forces.

Using sinitar ensures that mana costs are not that high, and I thing a final battle can be challenging between the two....

tell me what you think? Can this work similarly with dungeon too?



I was thinking about a good counter to your strategy...
Thought about the hero Laszlo with his strong squires. The strategy works like this: Invest everything into squires. Get light magic with magic imunity, and when fighting the archmage put only one huge stack of squires on the battlefield, and cast antimagic on them.
Advantages:
* they are very resistant ro ranged attacks,
* their huge number ensures shield bash that could be boosted with soldiers luck,
* Defense makes them much more durable, last stand could be an option here, since protection can be avoided(because of the use of magic imunity)
* they come is very large number thanks to the training skill
Disadvantages:
*slower creeping early on(but you can first train some archers, use them to creep and then upgrade them to squires

Battle tactic:
*one stack of sqiures
*cast magical imunity
*cast retaliation strike
*one hit kill all the enemy stacks

what do you think? can it work?

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Postby Mytical » Nov 29 2006, 9:45

Dungeon I think can do it, but rememeber it takes time to get those hydras and grim raiders. Against all but undead the assasins have a small advantage and huge disadvantage. Limited ranged damage, but poison. Vs undead they are really really hurting. So it can be done, but you'd have to be very careful. Same with sylvan and Sprite/Dancers. Possible, but have to choose battles carefully. Necros (zombies/skellies) but the spell limitations (and generally anything but dark (maybe summons) is of limited use to them).

Inferno with gating might be a good way, but they have a high tier ranged unit, so even more luck would be needed. So Academy might have the hands up on most. Don't know much about dwarves yet.

Haven I think would best be served if they could get Upgraded Archers/Upgraded Footmen. I think if they could they could creep unhindered. But those are lvl 2 and 3. You'd have to sacrifice quite a few of your peasents till then.
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Postby raistlinz » Nov 29 2006, 9:52

okrane wrote:I was thinking about a good counter to your strategy...
Thought about the hero Laszlo with his strong squires. The strategy works like this: Invest everything into squires. Get light magic with magic imunity, and when fighting the archmage put only one huge stack of squires on the battlefield, and cast antimagic on them.
Advantages:
* they are very resistant ro ranged attacks,
* their huge number ensures shield bash that could be boosted with soldiers luck,
* Defense makes them much more durable, last stand could be an option here, since protection can be avoided(because of the use of magic imunity)
* they come is very large number thanks to the training skill
Disadvantages:
*slower creeping early on(but you can first train some archers, use them to creep and then upgrade them to squires

Battle tactic:
*one stack of sqiures
*cast magical imunity
*cast retaliation strike
*one hit kill all the enemy stacks

what do you think? can it work?


MMR is multi-magic rush.

And the squires part: we got a guy in our bbs has the same idea as you said, and as you said, it will work, but you have to get magical imunity, plus our guy think the Teleportation is also crucial in this strategy.

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Postby Mytical » Nov 29 2006, 9:58

Teleportation would be extreamly good vs Casters/Ranged (as long as a few hang back to shield the archers from ranged fire (that would be their main benifit reducing ranged damage). Since they are strong and sturdy the Squires can take a beating also. Deflect missile, magic immunity, and teleport would have to be found somewhere however I think. :).
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Postby Grumpy Old Wizard » Nov 29 2006, 9:58

I think dwarves can also counter the strategy. Their level 1-3 units are all sturdy with good specials. Rune magic also gives some great magic and it will be very easy for the dwarf to become expert at his runes and use his powerful special far sooner than the wizard can.

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Postby Mytical » Nov 29 2006, 10:05

Spearweilders in corner surrounded by the shield guys. Not bad. Concentrate on rune magic, luck (MR and Dwarven Luck), and destruction magic? Could work possibly (after I play arround with academy I will try). Dwarven runes can res, allow two attacks, steal benificial spells from enemies, make creatures immune to random elements (armegeddon eh? Well we'll take half damage (doesn't prevent the physical) thanks ya), and allow their big guys to reach the other side in 1 turn...could be potentially a great strategy.

For Optimal Performance (not counting starting skills or those gotten at witch huts), you would nead at least 18 levels. The skills that would most benifit you would be (for dwarves mind).

Expert Runelore (2 levels)
Fine and refresh rune (2 more levels).
3 Expert Enlightenment (3 levels)
3 Expert Luck (3 more levels)
which leaves you with 7 levels of skills. Now here is where the optimal skills might be questionable. Expert destruct (3 levels) with ignite and mana burst (2 more for 5 total) and Advanced Defense (7), however that leaves out 30% mr for the dwarves.

You could go MR --> Dwarven Luck (2 more levels), Expert Destruct (3 levels) ignite and Mana burst (2 more for 5) and basic or something else. But the main thing is you only will have 4 expert Skills at level 18 at most. Unless your hero starts with an advanced skill in one of the ones you want you may be hurting.
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Postby okrane » Nov 29 2006, 10:43

Mytical wrote:Dungeon I think can do it, but rememeber it takes time to get those hydras and grim raiders. Against all but undead the assasins have a small advantage and huge disadvantage. Limited ranged damage, but poison. Vs undead they are really really hurting. So it can be done, but you'd have to be very careful. Same with sylvan and Sprite/Dancers. Possible, but have to choose battles carefully. Necros (zombies/skellies) but the spell limitations (and generally anything but dark (maybe summons) is of limited use to them).

Inferno with gating might be a good way, but they have a high tier ranged unit, so even more luck would be needed. So Academy might have the hands up on most. Don't know much about dwarves yet.

Haven I think would best be served if they could get Upgraded Archers/Upgraded Footmen. I think if they could they could creep unhindered. But those are lvl 2 and 3. You'd have to sacrifice quite a few of your peasents till then.


well not with assasins... furies are the main army... you can take out any walker with blood furies. I mean you can outmanouver almost every low level melee creep. As for ranged, either you put only minotaurs on the battlefield and kill them with DD spells, or you take hydras. you don't need raiders. Just Blood furies, minotaurs for tanks and Deep Hydras for archers.
I tested No mans land with dungeon. Worked fine had lvl 6 on week 1 and lvl 10 on week 2. My main problem is I got mages on 3 out of 4 mines and another location that also has mages.... and w/o the upgrade from the hydra I can't beat them. I need to come up with some crystal...
So I guess it can work, but it still needs polishing

oh... I'm playing 1.4 ... not HoF... are there any changes that can alter this strat in HoF

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Postby Jolly Joker » Nov 29 2006, 12:01

No that's the wrong way. We already discussed that. You need Tactics than you'll be able to taje out the low level shooters as well with Furies alone. On heroic the casters are too heavy to leave it to Hydras (alone) because their initiative is too bad. You need the punch of dealing damage with Furies and Raiders, that's why you need the Attack skills: Tactics, Frenzy, Power of Speed. Instead of Frenzy Retribution could be taken with Leadership which will further lead to creatures acting more often. Another big helper is LUCK (and you do well to visit map objects and rely on it).

However, since you need to take Crystal (most importantly and Sulfur (possible silo) FAST (the rest doesn't matter that much). That means you have to find a hero skill combination that will give the biggest killing potential for the least creatures in the least possible time. That means, only a very limited number of levels can be acquired before you simply have to take out the Crystal mine wihich should happen in week 2.

You will have 16 Furies normally, 22 with Yrwanna, 19 with Yrwanna and one of the 2 other low level specialists which makes a lot of difference. Yrwana starts with Enlightenment and Intelligence as well as the Slow spell. Yrwana has the distinct advantage that the Furies will be already monsters when you reach level 7 or so in week 2 and you'll have more of them. Basic Enlightenment will add additional points and Intelligence will give more mana. However, the first level gain is already crucial because you'll need attack, luck, Leader ship or Destructive Magic for level 2, (best would be attack).
Possible other starting heroes (if they turn up as secondaries in the Tavern): Eruina (she starts with Lightning Bolt, Destructive and Attack), Sorgal, and Vayshan. Sinitar would be okay as well, but his special isn't that good and his starting ability isn't either INITIALLY.

Note that we are still talking about the 5 weeks limit here.

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Postby okrane » Nov 29 2006, 12:21

I'm not sure I agree.
i use sinitar because you must be able to cast lots of empowered spells and you need to do this quite often if you face a wizard with miniartifacts and tons of mana.
Yrwanna is the only other viable hero imo. But she does not start with destructive, nor a destructive spell. Late game maybe she is better than sinitar, but for early creeping I think he is the best.
The good bonus she gives to blood furies I find it to be not that essential, since I use furies mostly to kill walkers.

About tactics, I agree you can kill them but you will lose many furies. let's say you have to fight a horde of master hunters, which I just did fight. they separate into 4 stacks. You might kill 1 or maybe even 2 stacks but lose some furies... and they are not that many.
the way I beat them is put on the battlefield 5 stacks of 1 miotaur. only 3 stacks acted before my hero. And thanks to sorcery my hero acted twice before them, and with 2 empoered ice rings I killed them all...

Eruina is ok... but her special is weaker than sinitars... at least early on

EDIT: I always had doubts in choosing between Sinitar and Yrwanna... and still have... guess I'll try them both...
What about summoning magic? getting a pheonix would surely help creeping

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Postby Jolly Joker » Nov 29 2006, 13:28

Well, you forget one important thing here.
Dungeon is not Academy resource-wise. So while you need ALL mines with Academy as soon as possible, you basically need Crystals and Sulfur only (and you can build the silo, if the Sulfur mine is guarded too tough); and of course gold, if there is any mine. The rest is needed later in small quantities, and it doesn't matter whether you get it in week 2 or 3.
So the most important thing is the Crystal Mine and the guards there determine how to go.
The worst thing that can happen in battle is not the 4 splitt, but the 3 split of creatures because only Meteor shower can take 2 stacks then. Leaving the killing the destructive power of the hero won't work for example against 3 stacks of Succubi Mistresses and other upgraded level 4 as well. Moreover you'll have to replenish spell points very often.
The main point is that you have only TWO (or with a gold mine three) prime targets that you have to take as early as possible and at a time where your hero won't have that many levels, that many knowledge and that many creatures (and not much to waste).
The rest doesn't matter much and every way does it that allows to kill them without losses.

Forget the Phoenix: it's 35 spell points.

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Postby okrane » Nov 29 2006, 17:51

Done it: I managed to take Yrwanna to level 18 in 5 weeks on Heroic

Made a few mistakes though, had a few losses... but this can be improved
The only problem remains the fact that she has a rather small army compared to what a wizard can have... but her spell power is strong and she has a very good damage output.

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Postby Jolly Joker » Nov 29 2006, 18:54

Yup. Looks good.

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Postby fly away » Nov 29 2006, 19:30

okrane wrote:Yrwanna is the only other viable hero imo.

Why wouldn't you try Vayshan? I find that in ANY major battle flurries go down first and go down quickly, unless you really outnumber your opponent and kill him off before he acts, but then I guess I wouldn't call it a "major" battle... So my point is that Yrwanna's special will be quite useless in the long term.
P.S. I should add that this is when one plays AI. Human opponent might find better targets depending on the situation.

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Postby Jolly Joker » Nov 29 2006, 20:08

That's not the point here. The point is to maximize your building options - playing on heroic difficulty - and flag the necessary mines as soon as possible with the least possible losses to have a maximum in creatures later and be on the opposition in week 5.
Yrwanna will give you 6 more Furies than any other hero. Her special plus Basic Enlightenment will make sure that those Furies will have a massive damage output very early which is the point here.


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