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The new Heroes games produced by Ubisoft. Please specify which game you are referring to in your post.
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DaemianLucifer
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Unread postby DaemianLucifer » 06 Nov 2006, 10:45

@JJ&ST

Who to trust on the armagedon issue now?It seems a moot point and needs extensive testing.Both of you guys are competent,but are playing different versions,and one of you is wrong.
Mytical wrote: In classic RPG (I know homm differs) magic users start weak, but become some of the strongest in later levels. This is the way it is meant to be not..weakest at the start and weakest at the later levels also. Now for the disclaimer. These are solely my views and not meant to represent any one elses views including and especially the Moderators of these forums. These views come from a odd source and must be taken with that fact firmly in mind. Others are free to dissagree with these views and are encouraged to do so. Thank you and have a nice day.
This is not a classical RPG,and both might and magic should be equal all of the time.No matter what you choose,you should have the same chance(with a proper development that is)to win.And you are right that this is not heroes of might and magic.It still seems like heroes of speed and bugs to me.Oh,and magic is much more important than might imo.Even the might heroes,as you call them,relly heavilly on spells.

And,thanks for proving my point:
Mytical wrote: On the otherside you Have Logistics, Luck, Leadership, and Light magic. Now lets take Attack and leaves you with your racial training.

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Gaidal Cain
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Unread postby Gaidal Cain » 06 Nov 2006, 10:49

Mytical wrote:In classic RPG (I know homm differs) magic users start weak, but become some of the strongest in later levels. This is the way it is meant to be not..weakest at the start and weakest at the later levels also.
Except that in heroes, Magic heroes have usually started off stronger and then weakened as the game prgresses, since unless you're going to cast destruction or resurrection, high spell power isn't that effective (a 10 rounds bless is not much better than a 5 rounds bless). A knight 10/10/5/5 stats and a few magic skills is better than a cleric with 5/5/10/10 stats and more magic skills but fewer might skills. This is in large part due to armies growing fast but combats not lasting particularly longer as the time goes.
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Jolly Joker
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Unread postby Jolly Joker » 06 Nov 2006, 11:10

DL, simply see for yourself and do the duel. I have version 1.3 as well (but prefer to play 2.0 obviously)
On might and magic.
In principle it is like GC says, you have the linear growing creatures and the lessening curve of effectiveness of spell power, but it seems that Nival did see this and they took a lot of care to do something against it:
1) Limited towns. The regular HoMM game will see a player with two towns at most limiting creature availability and therefore really "epic" hosts.
2) Racial skills. Massive troops for Necro. Massive spell damage for Dungeon (which counts due to 1)) andMini-artifacts for Wizard.
3) More powerful spell workings. For example, one Frenzy on said Paladins hitting Angels (or vice versa) and the army is pretty much finished. Also, think of Counterspell. If an army survives and an opponent has no spell points anymore it gets really tough.

You cannot reduce things to the agility of Paladins. Also, you cannot compare the need for money with the need for resources. When you've built everything you'll have resources like hell, but no excess money because you still have your regular troops to buy.

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Mytical
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Unread postby Mytical » 06 Nov 2006, 11:18

Actually since a single resource can be sold for a lot of gold in a marketplace, a single gold can not buy anything in that marketplace. Soo while gold is in shorter supply the extra resources help Haven more then it does Academy..so in essence you are giving haven further help. And frenzy is great IF you get to act before these paladins, and if your troops are not closer then anything else (or then you hurt yourself). Anyhow, we are just butting heads here, my last post on the subject..no sense in continuing this debate as neither of us have proven we can see the other side at any time :).
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Shauku
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Unread postby Shauku » 06 Nov 2006, 11:27

You shouldn't leave Light Magic out, when Wizard can pick an ability Suppress Light to make Knights spell cost twise as much.
And your example just shows how effective the faction Haven is, not how useless magic is.

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Kilop
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Unread postby Kilop » 06 Nov 2006, 14:58

@ JJ, yes I agrea, Nival did try to make magic more usefull. But there is still some problems left, I think here of certain spells, and certain tiers : high lvl light magic is useless, so is high level summoning ( apart from the phoenix ) and word of light / death are useless too. Not talking about destructive that is only usefull to dugeon and sylvan to a lesser extend.
It is a shame when I play academy or haven to take advanced in light , only to get a second mass version. While as you said, death have sooo powerful abilities... a wizard with MotW and dark ( frenzy + pupet master ), can litteraly dominate every non necro army. and I mean, well dominate!
I support(ed?) Nival... flame on !!!
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Unread postby PhoenixReborn » 06 Nov 2006, 15:06

Kilop wrote:@ JJ, yes I agrea, Nival did try to make magic more usefull. But there is still some problems left, I think here of certain spells, and certain tiers : high lvl light magic is useless, so is high level summoning ( apart from the phoenix ) and word of light / death are useless too. Not talking about destructive that is only usefull to dugeon and sylvan to a lesser extend.
It is a shame when I play academy or haven to take advanced in light , only to get a second mass version. While as you said, death have sooo powerful abilities... a wizard with MotW and dark ( frenzy + pupet master ), can litteraly dominate every non necro army. and I mean, well dominate!
Well in the expansion (and 1.4) you can place firewall anywhere so that just got more useful.

Arcane armor is an awesome spell. Reduction from any damage, magical or physical.

On the maps I play word of light/curse of the netherworld are excellent. I tend to favor smaller maps. If you are doing 300 damage to every enemy creature you can knock out the a.i. raised creatures and still do damage to all the other units.

Dark magic is awfully strong, especially if you have no way to counter it.

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Unread postby Sir_Toejam » 06 Nov 2006, 15:07

DL, simply see for yourself and do the duel. I have version 1.3 as well (but prefer to play 2.0 obviously)
here's the deal, as we both (?) figured out from a post Kelvin made:

in 1.3, the AI's creatures that are immune to fire damage take no damage from armageddon.

However, the player's creatures that are supposedly immune from fire damage DO.

according to JJ, this may be fixed in the expansion, as magma elementals owned by the player are not affected by it.

anything else to add JJ?

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Shauku
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Unread postby Shauku » 06 Nov 2006, 15:26

Light is one of the best magics out there. Even though it has below average level 4 spells. (meaning that they are situation related spells, may not be used in every fight)

About summoning I agree a bit. It had two useleless level 4 spells, out of which fire wall is the more useful one. Summon Elementals is not only a level 4 spell that has RANDOM effect but quite harmless to the opponent. What a combination. Fire Wall gets a boost in 1.4, which is great, but Elementals need to loose that randomness to become even slightly useful. But level 5 spells on summoning are both great IMO.

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Kilop
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Unread postby Kilop » 06 Nov 2006, 15:29

just tell me when you prefer a phoenix to a nice 25 puppet mastered archangels ??
I support(ed?) Nival... flame on !!!
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PhoenixReborn
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Unread postby PhoenixReborn » 06 Nov 2006, 15:37

Kilop wrote:just tell me when you prefer a phoenix to a nice 25 puppet mastered archangels ??
When the enemy does lay hands or cleansing!

Since the summoned elementals don't stack there aren't enough of them and they have low initiative so they only go once or twice. Useless spell.

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Kilop
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Unread postby Kilop » 06 Nov 2006, 16:07

When the enemy does lay hands or cleansing!
harm touch, vorpal sword ??
and the more spell power you have, the more it is dificult to dispel ...
+ arcane armor is really that powerfull, well nothing compared to resurection ( pre 1.3, the way it should be ) or imp lucky implosion...
I support(ed?) Nival... flame on !!!
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Jolly Joker
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Unread postby Jolly Joker » 06 Nov 2006, 16:11

Sir_Toejam wrote: anything else to add JJ?
No. As I said I tried to verify things with the duel heroes since I lack the time to set something up specifically, but the two Armageddon heroes don't have Gargoyles or the Elemental spell, so no chance.
However, I did set up something in 2.0 with the Magmas which worked. It allowed me to find another bug for 2.0 with a Dwarven ability, but Armageddon works perfectly with Dwarves and Magma Dragons there.
That's all I can say for now.

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DaemianLucifer
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Unread postby DaemianLucifer » 06 Nov 2006, 16:26

Kilop wrote: harm touch, vorpal sword ??
and the more spell power you have, the more it is dificult to dispel ...
+ arcane armor is really that powerfull, well nothing compared to resurection ( pre 1.3, the way it should be ) or imp lucky implosion...
What about MR?No matter your spellpower,it can always be resisted,but phoenix cannot be.

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Shauku
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Unread postby Shauku » 06 Nov 2006, 16:28

When the enemy does lay hands or cleansing!
...Puppet Master can be resisted by the target, the initiative of the "puppet" may drop so low that it never takes an action, it is useless agains Necro...

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Unread postby fly away » 06 Nov 2006, 18:19

Jolly Joker wrote: If an army survives and an opponent has no spell points anymore it gets really tough.
I've never seen this happen except to myself in the beginning of a map.

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Unread postby fly away » 06 Nov 2006, 18:35

Mytical wrote:He will act first (his AA's are rather fast) and his cavaliers are no slouches. So they cover the distance and hit your Titans before you can so much as say..Hey wait a minute. Your Titans then retaliate at a much weaker force.
Consider the following combination - miniartefact with initiative-morale-attack boost, mass haste and mass slow. No might hero can resist this. So it's arguable that they get to go first.

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Unread postby fly away » 06 Nov 2006, 18:40

Shauku wrote:You shouldn't leave Light Magic out, when Wizard can pick an ability Suppress Light to make Knights spell cost twise as much
That if Haven is your only opponent. Otherwise suppress light is a waste of slot for some "Master of" skill. For middle and large sized maps mana is usually not an issue for any faction. Or rather I should say that battles just don't last long enough to loose all your mana.


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