I am (finally) getting started with Heroes V

[Elvin]

Some thoughts here.
I simply think that DL and TT are disappointed that Heroes V took H III and went further from then on, not H IV. And they would have a liked a more complete product from the start.
I disagree strongly about the AI.
Within the series the AI became weaker with every game, and H III's AI is insufficient to be a challenge. It is even insufficient on impossible difficulty level. Here it's the map maker who decides whether things are possible or not, but beating the AI on any multiplayer map on expert level and on larger maps on impossible is a cakewalk. The AI does, however, do a decent job of letting it appear like a "person" would be playing, albeit some pretty retarded child. I'm not going into a full rant on what exactly makes the AI so weak, but it is weak.
The AI in H 5 is not nearly as weak as that. There will be some interesting errors there, but play any mp map even on hard difficulty (not to mention heroic) and you'll have work to do to win.
You could claim now that this is a consequence only of the resources the AI gets, but that's not really true. I urge you to test Quick Combat, which is extremely well working, explaining why the AI has not so many losses. Furthermore you may just sit back and watch and let the AI do battles; in Duel mode or even on a map when an interesting fight is near. That's rather interesting to watch.

I don't even understand why there is a problem with people that like to make fun of situations and people with their posts.A little sarcasm is to be expected if you live on this planet and it is nothing one should take seriously enough to mind.
And I can't agree with the AI.It always was a victim in H3(except if you played a really resource starved map on impossible) and it presents even less challenge in H5.Yes you have to work but once you know it patterns it's over.And it can do nothing on its own to threaten a decent player except for getting enough free resources to fully build its town by month 2 maybe earlier AND buy all army.
I've tested quick combat and although I was impressed with some of its moves I have won battles with minimal casualties where the AI will lose and kill just a pecentage of enemy creatures.It's decent but no indication that it can play well overall.

[ThunderTitan]

I don't even understand why there is a problem with people that like to make fun of situations and people with their posts.

I belive the problem comes when the joke is dead on.

I simply think that DL and TT are disappointed that Heroes V took H III and went further from then on, not H IV. And they would have a liked a more complete product from the start.

Actualy i'm pissed off that some ppl seem to think that taking one step forward and two back is going further. Well dissapointed actualy, it's just that i like to talk down to ppl, and that makes it seem like i'm pissed.

[Omega_Destroyer]

Life is way too short to take the banter on a message board seriously.

I think the major problem with Heroes 5 reception has to deal with Heroes 4. Heroes 4 was such a departure from the series that left many yearning for a "true" sequal to Heroes 3. When we finally got Heroes 5, a lot of us were surprised at how a "true" sequal to Heroes 3 played like. After so many years, the new Heroes 5 seems like a downgrade comapred to Heroes 3. The release of a mediocre fifth game vindicates the pro Heroes 4 community who felt the series needed a change.

[okrane]

The AI in H 5 is not nearly as weak as that. There will be some interesting errors there, but play any mp map even on hard difficulty (not to mention heroic) and you'll have work to do to win.
You could claim now that this is a consequence only of the resources the AI gets, but that's not really true. I urge you to test Quick Combat, which is extremely well working, explaining why the AI has not so many losses. Furthermore you may just sit back and watch and let the AI do battles; in Duel mode or even on a map when an interesting fight is near. That's rather interesting to watch.

Just had a glimpse of the AI's great intelligence :p

In the end of my game I encountered an easy fight... one full week of a Haven army on a lvl 1 hero, I suppose, versus my level 23 Warlock with around 3 week army... I said... let the AI do the onors in killing this boring oponent. Guess what it did? It waited with all the units till the hero's turn and cast Empowered Armageddon which turned out to be a lucky spell :D... I think there's no need to mention that both armies were destroyed... and I got the win screen...

that's just a brillant AI... but hey... at least I had fun loading the autosave :p

[ThunderTitan]

Life is way too short to take the banter on a message board seriously.

When we finally got Heroes 5, a lot of us were surprised at how a "true" sequal to Heroes 3 played like.

Agreed.

Nope, taking out half the stuff H3 had to make it "play faster" doesn't make it a true/real/whatever sequel. Implementing stuff that H4 had and could have worked with th H3 system doesn't make the game more H4 then H3.

And i for one didn't really want heroes back in combat or any of the other big changes H4 had. But they ignored it almost completly. And that pissed me off. I don't really like H4 all that much, but to me it still has the heroes feeling.

[DaemianLucifer]

Just had a glimpse of the AI's great intelligence :p

In the end of my game I encountered an easy fight... one full week of a Haven army on a lvl 1 hero, I suppose, versus my level 23 Warlock with around 3 week army... I said... let the AI do the onors in killing this boring oponent. Guess what it did? It waited with all the units till the hero's turn and cast Empowered Armageddon which turned out to be a lucky spell :D... I think there's no need to mention that both armies were destroyed... and I got the win screen...

that's just a brillant AI... but hey... at least I had fun loading the autosave :p

Yes,well there is the adventure AI.Now that one is clever.Oh....Wait...Forget that I said that.

[Zrana]

Life is way too short to take the banter on a message board seriously.

When we finally got Heroes 5, a lot of us were surprised at how a "true" sequal to Heroes 3 played like.

Agreed.

Nope, taking out half the stuff H3 had to make it "play faster" doesn't make it a true/real/whatever sequel. Implementing stuff that H4 had and could have worked with th H3 system doesn't make the game more H4 then H3.

And i for one didn't really want heroes back in combat or any of the other big changes H4 had. But they ignored it almost completly. And that pissed me off. I don't really like H4 all that much, but to me it still has the heroes feeling.

The thing is, that heroes 3 was much more successful than 4. It sold because it was unique, but heroes 4 no longer had anything special. You can pwn an entire map with just a few heroes.. sounds more like an RPG to me. You can tblame nival for ignoring the dead loss that was heroes 4.

Off-topic a bit (well this thread is already waaay OT), but why is haven/castle always so overpowered? its silly.

[DaemianLucifer]

The thing is, that heroes 3 was much more successful than 4. It sold because it was unique, but heroes 4 no longer had anything special. You can pwn an entire map with just a few heroes.. sounds more like an RPG to me. You can tblame nival for ignoring the dead loss that was heroes 4.

So,because the roman empire crumbled,people shouldve stopped using the roads theyve built,right?We also shouldnt be using mathematics(greece and egypt both crumbled as well),irigation,compas,etc,etc.So what if some features were implemented poorly,that doesnt mean there werent great things in the game that couldve been used.

Off-topic a bit (well this thread is already waaay OT), but why is haven/castle always so overpowered? its silly.

Isnt it obvious?Because theyre humans,of course.But I dont think that haven is that overpowered now.

[Elvin]

The thing is, that heroes 3 was much more successful than 4. It sold because it was unique, but heroes 4 no longer had anything special. You can pwn an entire map with just a few heroes.. sounds more like an RPG to me. You can tblame nival for ignoring the dead loss that was heroes 4.

Off-topic a bit (well this thread is already waaay OT), but why is haven/castle always so overpowered? its silly.

No H4 was pretty special and had many unique things thought most find it lacking.You could be very creative with your strategies and there were many new rules but there was nasty implementation and some elements that could not be accepted by the majority of fans.Plus it had lost that feeling...It was now a collage of fan ideas put together,its magic was gone.Its heroes distinctly reminded me of rpg from the first time I played it,which was nice for a change but I'm glad it's dirrerent now.

Yes it's a major heroes policy since H3 This time they overdid it a bit.

[ThunderTitan]

You can pwn an entire map with just a few heroes.. sounds more like an RPG to me. You can tblame nival for ignoring the dead loss that was heroes 4.

Yeah, because it was too much like a RPG lets ignore all the other good changes, including all them extra buttons...

Yeah, and dishonest too, they made me quit posting or almost.

You forgot the rude, insane and ignorant part.

[Kilop]

You forgot the rude, insane and ignorant part.

Nono I dind t forgot , but I had to stop to a point , or I could have added, nasty, hypocrits, relatively low QI, haven playing, necro playing, distrustfull, ambigious, liers .
But that was a bit long

...just a joke.

Kilop: What exactly does this mean? Posting Power? They are not Mods? Please explain. Also...How can they make you from not posting on these boards?

just count the number of DL and TT posts on this thread, and get scared. Hopefully the three great demons brother are not reunited , but fear the coming of Phoenix reborn, that xould mean only one thing , the annihilation of the human race... or at least of this post

[ThunderTitan]

...just a joke.

It better be... haven playing. Do you use that mouth to kiss your mother?!

[DaemianLucifer]

haven playing

Id let the rest slide,but this one,even as as joke is too much!Come on,you and,right here,right now

Oh,and brother.Ughh!Id hate to be TTs brother.That guy has stale bread under his bed

[okrane]

I think this thread will be locked really soon

[Kilop]

Do you use that mouth to kiss your mother?!

not any more, no I can't.
at leat I didn't say castle playing...

anyway, just to ask , would potion be possibly a good addition to the game ?

[Omega_Destroyer]

Possibly. Just offer up some tempoary bonsus like add 1 to your stats for one battle and what have you.

[Banedon]

I think this thread will be locked really soon

Exactly. People, if we're going to discuss if ThunderTitan and DaemianLucifer are ruining this forum, let's do it in Campfire.

No H4 was pretty special and had many unique things thought most find it lacking.You could be very creative with your strategies and there were many new rules but there was nasty implementation and some elements that could not be accepted by the majority of fans.Plus it had lost that feeling...It was now a collage of fan ideas put together,its magic was gone.Its heroes distinctly reminded me of rpg from the first time I played it,which was nice for a change but I'm glad it's dirrerent now.

However, Heroes 4 brought in many new features that were extremely good. Off the top of my head I can think of:

1. Blocking a Ranged creature's Line of Sight - this brought in a whole new tactical dimension. As it is, Ranged creatures gain in tremendous power once more.
2. The ability to have more than one hero in an army - this made Heroes 4 combat extremely rich. With 5 heroes in an army for example you had a whole lot of tactical options.
3. Simultaneous retaliations, which is logical.
4. The wait-attack-attack without retaliation sequence was another thing.
5. Marketplaces in every town without having to build it

Heroes 5 didn't have that much innovation, but it did bring in some fine ideas as well:

1. Brought the Capitol system back; makes managing Gold a lot easier.
2. Initiative. Though it still bewilders me and I would certainly appreciate it if I could know where the creature goes after waiting, it is a powerful new way of ordering creatures.
3. The skill system. So far I've only done the Haven campaign (Heroes 5 ate up so much of my time [12 hours in two days! What the...] that I'm abstaining from it), but it sure looks interesting.
4. And the graphics are much better than anything we've seen, though the battle screen looks very much like a chessboard.[/quote]

[DaemianLucifer]

1. Blocking a Ranged creature's Line of Sight - this brought in a whole new tactical dimension. As it is, Ranged creatures gain in tremendous power once more.

And dont forget the different ranges it had(1/8 damage,for example).If taken just a bit further,like in equi,it also made casters more reasonable as well.And with 3D camera this system would be very easy to use.It could count creature sizes as well.

2. The ability to have more than one hero in an army - this made Heroes 4 combat extremely rich. With 5 heroes in an army for example you had a whole lot of tactical options.

Too bad it was implemented badly so later armies became almost useless.But if they mixed heroes with stacks,maybe something interesting couldve came out.

3. Simultaneous retaliations, which is logical.

Personally,I consider it just a step in the right direction and not the best way of dealing with retal.

4. The wait-attack-attack without retaliation sequence was another thing.

It can be used in HV as well.

5. Marketplaces in every town without having to build it

Yes,this was a very usefull feature.And the monetary system was a bit better.It is weird when you have to spend 5000 gp for a single resource.

And dont forget the FoW,because it really makes no sense to see everything your enemy does.And the best inovation HIV brought imo is the separate map movement for creatures and heroes,thus eliminating chaining.

1. Brought the Capitol system back; makes managing Gold a lot easier.

Yes,but I dont find any of the economy systems we had the best one.This still needs to be worked on.

2. Initiative. Though it still bewilders me and I would certainly appreciate it if I could know where the creature goes after waiting, it is a powerful new way of ordering creatures.

Well I think it the bar would look weird if it showed where the creature would appear if waiting,but it could be done in some way(maybe having an option to show you a ghost picture of its position after some time could be implemented)

3. The skill system. So far I've only done the Haven campaign (Heroes 5 ate up so much of my time [12 hours in two days! What the...] that I'm abstaining from it), but it sure looks interesting.

Also,did you check the skill wheel?Its an excelent help here.And you are just nearing the real chalenge of the campaigns.Remember that logistics can save your life

4. And the graphics are much better than anything we've seen, though the battle screen looks very much like a chessboard.

Here I disagree.But graphics was never the most important thing of heroes(though it always had the most beautiful maps).

[Banedon]

And dont forget the different ranges it had(1/8 damage,for example).If taken just a bit further,like in equi,it also made casters more reasonable as well.And with 3D camera this system would be very easy to use.It could count creature sizes as well.

Indeed. Thinking about it right now I realize that I never really relied on Ranged creatures in Heroes 4; I relied on fast fliers and ranged creature blocking. The Heroes 3 system boosts Ranged creatures a lot. I'll have to rely on them once more.

Too bad it was implemented badly so later armies became almost useless.But if they mixed heroes with stacks,maybe something interesting couldve came out.

Nah, you still had to have an army to actually kill with. But aye. Right now I think the hero dealing a fixed percentage of damage per creature isn't good. My hero can kill 1 Archangel in a hit but only 9 Familiars? What the heck. That's odd indeed.

It can be used in HV as well.

The odd thing about Heroes 5 that I'm not all too used to yet is the initiative system. I'm not sure how to put this into use yet. Guess I'll have to learn it.

Yes,this was a very usefull feature.And the monetary system was a bit better.It is weird when you have to spend 5000 gp for a single resource.

And dont forget the FoW,because it really makes no sense to see everything your enemy does.And the best inovation HIV brought imo is the separate map movement for creatures and heroes,thus eliminating chaining.

Aye. The trading system in Heroes 4 is a bit too generous in my opinion, but it's definitely much better than Heroes 3, which is way too harsh. The Fog of War was a massive change that removed a great deal of strategy from the game. We've always sent out heroes in all directions to clear the map, but in Heroes 4 we left them there. Now we can bring them all back home to the endless chaining task. Heroes 4 also made it impossible to chain creatures forever - moving a creature that had moved already left the movement points still drained. That too was a good thing.

Well I think it the bar would look weird if it showed where the creature would appear if waiting,but it could be done in some way(maybe having an option to show you a ghost picture of its position after some time could be implemented)

Well, at least provide the amassed initiative such that we can calculate...

Also,did you check the skill wheel?Its an excelent help here.And you are just nearing the real chalenge of the campaigns.Remember that logistics can save your life

You underestimate me I bet I'll pass the next campaign and the next after that. Of course I'll have Logistics. Logistics has always been THE skill to have.

Here I disagree.But graphics was never the most important thing of heroes(though it always had the most beautiful maps).

Right, but we don't want an ugly game.

[DaemianLucifer]

Nah, you still had to have an army to actually kill with. But aye. Right now I think the hero dealing a fixed percentage of damage per creature isn't good. My hero can kill 1 Archangel in a hit but only 9 Familiars? What the heck. That's odd indeed.

It is actually a good thing.It adds realism.Too bad though,that whenever they add something realistic,they limit it to just one thing(in this example heroes),thus making the game quite illogical as a whole.

The odd thing about Heroes 5 that I'm not all too used to yet is the initiative system. I'm not sure how to put this into use yet. Guess I'll have to learn it.

Its quite a good system.Even though it needs a bit of tweaking,its quite good as it is now.Youll learn soon enough how to best (ab)use it

Well, at least provide the amassed initiative such that we can calculate...

Indeed,a bar under the units number might do the trick.

You underestimate me I bet I'll pass the next campaign and the next after that. Of course I'll have Logistics. Logistics has always been THE skill to have.

I have no doubt you will.But C2M3 and C4M3 will be the maps youll struggle the most in,and the ones youll appreceate the most as well(although I dont know how the changes done in the patches affected those,but I heard C4M3 still is the hardest one).

Talk about last minute save.The thread is back on track