So basically classifying them is subjective and differs from one person to the next. Now I have a classifying system, but it is actually probably worse then your two's system hehe. That is the usefulness system. On a scale from 1-20 (or 1 to whatever works for you) you decide how useful the creatures are in an army for you. This works better without taking heroes skills or specials into consideration (as this can change everything). I will give an example for Sylvan using the 1-20 method.
1 being the equivilent of fodder or little use, 20 being the most useful. Note I am also compairing them to creatures of similar tiers. Forgive me if I get some mixed up but I am doing both unupgraded and upgraded.
Tier 1 unupgraded - 2 (growth only reason it did not get a 1).
Tier 1 Upgraded - 6 No-retal helps ... a lot.
Tier 2 unupgraded - 1 even weaker then below.
Tier 2 upgraded - 4 too weak, best as drawling damage and dying
Tier 3 Un - 12 Hunters..need I say more?
Tier 3 Up - 15 Um need I even say anything? MH rule
Tier 4 Un - 11 dang good unit, magic/ranged/tough.
Tier 4 Up - 14 Because it's better then the unupgraded
Tier 5 Un - 9 too low of growth
Tier 5 Up - 11MR, too low of growth though
Tier 6 UN - 11 Tough, low growth, slow
Tier 6 Up- 14 Tough, but a bit slow and with low growth
Tier 7 Un - 10.5 See below, change the names accordingly
Tier 7 Up - 13.5 Not as useful as say a shadow dragon, but better then a spectral one by far
I am (finally) getting started with Heroes V
I am not steering at Dungeon. I just pointed out the deficiencies in your classification, nothing more. At this point I begin to feel some aggression from you and would like to defuse the situation unless you don't mind getting into another 27-page long debate.
@Vampires - Vampire Lords move fast. They're going to get the first hit against most creatures. So they'll be incapacitated in one hit, but they'll still be able to regenerate their numbers and pose a threat later.
If you say they are light creatures, then compare them against Deep Hydras. Who wins this duel? A straight fight would probably result in the Vampire Lords winning, not the other way round.
@Blood Furies - Blood Furies cannot kill Vampire Lords. You can try it, it won't work. The Vampire Lords win because of their higher damage and their life draining attacks. Sure they will be able to damage and destroy the Vampire Lords if the Vampire Lords are not focused on retaliating against the Blood Furies (in other words, at hitting back). But that's about it, otherwise the Vampire Lords win. I've not denied them the ability to kill other Normal Hunters too. There's nothing in your definition that says they can't.
@Deep Hydras - Deep Hydras, when used offensively, are certainly not Hunter-Killers. The definition says that Hunter-killers cannot be used as a hunter or even killer because of its slowness in speed or initiative. That applies to Deep Hydras completely, but they can be used offensively. This is a flaw in your classification, as it is a flaw in mine. Unteleported Deep Hydras are hunter-killers but once teleported their complexion changes.
@Mytical - Which race is that? Sylvan?
@Vampires - Vampire Lords move fast. They're going to get the first hit against most creatures. So they'll be incapacitated in one hit, but they'll still be able to regenerate their numbers and pose a threat later.
If you say they are light creatures, then compare them against Deep Hydras. Who wins this duel? A straight fight would probably result in the Vampire Lords winning, not the other way round.
@Blood Furies - Blood Furies cannot kill Vampire Lords. You can try it, it won't work. The Vampire Lords win because of their higher damage and their life draining attacks. Sure they will be able to damage and destroy the Vampire Lords if the Vampire Lords are not focused on retaliating against the Blood Furies (in other words, at hitting back). But that's about it, otherwise the Vampire Lords win. I've not denied them the ability to kill other Normal Hunters too. There's nothing in your definition that says they can't.
@Deep Hydras - Deep Hydras, when used offensively, are certainly not Hunter-Killers. The definition says that Hunter-killers cannot be used as a hunter or even killer because of its slowness in speed or initiative. That applies to Deep Hydras completely, but they can be used offensively. This is a flaw in your classification, as it is a flaw in mine. Unteleported Deep Hydras are hunter-killers but once teleported their complexion changes.
@Mytical - Which race is that? Sylvan?
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Jolly Joker
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@Banedon:
I'm not aggressive at all. I just think, you get some things wrong.
When you have a handful of classifications it is clear that there will be units that are difficult to classify. With Dungeon I have absolutely no problem with the Hydras; the main problem are the Minotaurs. They ARE of course Hunter-Killers, but they can be used as Hunters and even Killers as well, due to some other traits of them. They are something like a multipurpose unit that excels in nothing but can be used for everything, depending on what the hero is good at. However, I wasn't prepared to give my classification of the Dungeon since I'm still at the Necropolis and the Vampire Lord.
Vampire Lords are overrated.
Vampire Lords have 9/9 attack defense and do 7-11 damage. They are the same in number as Furies (Furies will have some more due to their heroes starting with some - a lot of maps include level 2 outside dwellings, and you can relatively easy boost the growth +1 for the Furies), so there would be some more.
What goes into defense from the Necro hero is of no use for the killing power of the Vampires; what is Defense for Necro is Attack for Dungeon, though. That means, in any fight against neutrals the Furies will be more or less doing their full damage on them Vamps. They will furthermore hit twice before the Vamps hit the first time.
In a fight Necro against Dungeon army the Furies will very probably start and might hit Vamp Lords immediately, albeit with not as much effect as against neutrals. There's then the same problem that the Vamps can't reach the Furies immediately since they are slower.
So the bottom line is, in the end they are both light killers in attack potential, HOWEVER, the Vamps are in addition ARMORED, which is not the case with the Furies.
Now for Hydras and Vamp Lords. How will Vamp Lords be able to beat Deep Hydras? Outdancing them isn't possible, because once the Hydras claim the middle of the map they can reach the vamp lords whereever they are (at least I think that they can; correct me please, if there is a way to outdance them). However, that's interesting only under certain conditions anyway. Deep Hydras have 125 DPs each and a plus 6 in defense, so the damage modifier is .77 for the Vamp Lords, which means, the average damage a Vamp Lord does against a Deep Hydra is a bit under 7 (but 7 does it for simplicities sake. So you need EIGHTEEN Vamp Lords to kill ONE Deep Hydra (which still doesn't include the Regenration ability of the Hydra which isn't worse than the Vamp Lord's).
Note, that the Necro hero CANNOT do anything to make the Vampires deadlier, but he could make the Hydras less deadly by casting Dark Magic spells on them.
On the other hand hydras will do a modified average damage of nearly 15 per Hydra against Vamp Lords and since Vamp Lords have 35 HPs you can say that 7 Hydras are enough to kill 3 Vamp Lords.
So, no, Vampire Lords don't qualify as more than Light Killers, not in my book at least.
@Mythical
I wouldn't dare to discuss your personal usefulness raiting.
I have to work now, so I won't be able to post much within the next 8 hours, so please don't feel ignored when I don't post the next hours.
I'm not aggressive at all. I just think, you get some things wrong.
When you have a handful of classifications it is clear that there will be units that are difficult to classify. With Dungeon I have absolutely no problem with the Hydras; the main problem are the Minotaurs. They ARE of course Hunter-Killers, but they can be used as Hunters and even Killers as well, due to some other traits of them. They are something like a multipurpose unit that excels in nothing but can be used for everything, depending on what the hero is good at. However, I wasn't prepared to give my classification of the Dungeon since I'm still at the Necropolis and the Vampire Lord.
Vampire Lords are overrated.
Vampire Lords have 9/9 attack defense and do 7-11 damage. They are the same in number as Furies (Furies will have some more due to their heroes starting with some - a lot of maps include level 2 outside dwellings, and you can relatively easy boost the growth +1 for the Furies), so there would be some more.
What goes into defense from the Necro hero is of no use for the killing power of the Vampires; what is Defense for Necro is Attack for Dungeon, though. That means, in any fight against neutrals the Furies will be more or less doing their full damage on them Vamps. They will furthermore hit twice before the Vamps hit the first time.
In a fight Necro against Dungeon army the Furies will very probably start and might hit Vamp Lords immediately, albeit with not as much effect as against neutrals. There's then the same problem that the Vamps can't reach the Furies immediately since they are slower.
So the bottom line is, in the end they are both light killers in attack potential, HOWEVER, the Vamps are in addition ARMORED, which is not the case with the Furies.
Now for Hydras and Vamp Lords. How will Vamp Lords be able to beat Deep Hydras? Outdancing them isn't possible, because once the Hydras claim the middle of the map they can reach the vamp lords whereever they are (at least I think that they can; correct me please, if there is a way to outdance them). However, that's interesting only under certain conditions anyway. Deep Hydras have 125 DPs each and a plus 6 in defense, so the damage modifier is .77 for the Vamp Lords, which means, the average damage a Vamp Lord does against a Deep Hydra is a bit under 7 (but 7 does it for simplicities sake. So you need EIGHTEEN Vamp Lords to kill ONE Deep Hydra (which still doesn't include the Regenration ability of the Hydra which isn't worse than the Vamp Lord's).
Note, that the Necro hero CANNOT do anything to make the Vampires deadlier, but he could make the Hydras less deadly by casting Dark Magic spells on them.
On the other hand hydras will do a modified average damage of nearly 15 per Hydra against Vamp Lords and since Vamp Lords have 35 HPs you can say that 7 Hydras are enough to kill 3 Vamp Lords.
So, no, Vampire Lords don't qualify as more than Light Killers, not in my book at least.
@Mythical
I wouldn't dare to discuss your personal usefulness raiting.
I have to work now, so I won't be able to post much within the next 8 hours, so please don't feel ignored when I don't post the next hours.
Yep, Sylvan (sorry didn't put names because I am never sure if it is sprite or pixie that is the upgrade version) hehe. Oh and feel free to pick away, won't be offended. It's not perfect by any means. Usefulness is for me a better way then classifying them .
.Warning, may cause confusion, blindness, raising of eybrows, and insanity. 
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Gaidal Cain
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I think Banedon had trouble outdancing three stacks of hydras even with Sprites, and Vampires have worse stats in that regards. Against the AI, with only one Hydra stack, and possibly some obstacles, it might be doable, but I don't think it's a frequent thing.Jolly Joker wrote:Now for Hydras and Vamp Lords. How will Vamp Lords be able to beat Deep Hydras? Outdancing them isn't possible, because once the Hydras claim the middle of the map they can reach the vamp lords whereever they are (at least I think that they can; correct me please, if there is a way to outdance them).
Except for the replacement of Disrupting Ray... (Yes, I'm still having trouble with these unnecessary new spell names).Note, that the Necro hero CANNOT do anything to make the Vampires deadlier, but he could make the Hydras less deadly by casting Dark Magic spells on them.
You don't want to make enemies in Nuclear Engineering. -- T. Pratchett
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Jolly Joker
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*Using a pause to put in a quick post*
Basically, against neutrals you can use certain units in other roles (you might not have any other units). Since I am with Necro, if you start with Orson (the Zombie guy) you start with Defense also. He comes with so many Zombies that you can invert all combat rules and attack most low level shooters with the Zombies only. In other words, you go in with light Hunter-Killers and use them as Hunters - they may be slow and low-initiative, but the hero already supports them well and those Skelly Warriors don't have the punch to really stop them.
That doesn't make them anything better or different though.
So we shouldn't look too much into exceptions of the rules here, is what I think.
What I like in *my* system is, that if you go back a step and look at the bigger picture of hero and unit classifications you get a good impression of what their army is all about. Look at Necro: One Heavy Artillery, lots of medium units, attrition support, two armored units. What you see is a mire of durable mediocre units and one that does the killer punch, an army designed for wearing the opposition down. It makes sense, I think.
Basically, against neutrals you can use certain units in other roles (you might not have any other units). Since I am with Necro, if you start with Orson (the Zombie guy) you start with Defense also. He comes with so many Zombies that you can invert all combat rules and attack most low level shooters with the Zombies only. In other words, you go in with light Hunter-Killers and use them as Hunters - they may be slow and low-initiative, but the hero already supports them well and those Skelly Warriors don't have the punch to really stop them.
That doesn't make them anything better or different though.
So we shouldn't look too much into exceptions of the rules here, is what I think.
What I like in *my* system is, that if you go back a step and look at the bigger picture of hero and unit classifications you get a good impression of what their army is all about. Look at Necro: One Heavy Artillery, lots of medium units, attrition support, two armored units. What you see is a mire of durable mediocre units and one that does the killer punch, an army designed for wearing the opposition down. It makes sense, I think.
Well your system is ok, but not really better per se then Banedons. All the systems have flaws. For instance my 1-20 (or whatever) system you have to take a whole lot of things into consideration and missing a few things can really mess it up. A huge flaw. What earns a 20? A 1? Why? See lots of flaws, but it can be tailored to a persons preferences. Since I see units different then you your system would be fine to use for me but I would put different units in different classifications. Same for Banedon's. It is really a matter of personal preference. Some people find one thing utterly useless while another finds them something they can not possibly do without. (For instance I love peasants because of the money they bring in and most people find them pretty much useless). Since I try never to actually put them in combat it really doesn't matter that they die like flies, deal no real damage and are slower then molasses on a winters day. Another example is Zombies. Sure they are pretty much useless..but if you leave them in your towns for long enough and you get enough of them...well they can be a real pain for your enemy. I don't think any of us will actually ever agree about a system I am afraid. Or if we do, that we will classify a creature the same. (Well maybe Djinn...but I classify them as fodder and many may classify them support lol).
Warning, may cause confusion, blindness, raising of eybrows, and insanity.
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PhoenixReborn
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Your point is that no one will agree. I'm going to prove you right. Would you classify Djinn as fodder if the a.i. didn't attack them first? What if Djinn were last in the a.i. priority?Mytical wrote: I don't think any of us will actually ever agree about a system I am afraid. Or if we do, that we will classify a creature the same. (Well maybe Djinn...but I classify them as fodder and many may classify them support lol).
I like to throw a luck artifact on them and use them as killers to finish off a large stack. They strike when they can inflict massive damage (preferably on a large or high tier stack) and not be retaliated against.
@Gaidal Cain - I suggest before you pass those remarks to try it yourself. It's not as easy as you think it is. I managed only because there were large amounts of obstacles around.
The Vampire Lords have a huge advantage the Sprites do not: they can take hits and still come out with zero casualties. I certainly think 30 Vampire Lords will defeat 30 Deep Hydras, though I have yet to try that battle. They will take some hits probably, but they will drain it all back.
The Vampire Lords have a huge advantage the Sprites do not: they can take hits and still come out with zero casualties. I certainly think 30 Vampire Lords will defeat 30 Deep Hydras, though I have yet to try that battle. They will take some hits probably, but they will drain it all back.
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Gaidal Cain
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I meant no disrespect, but if you had trouble doing that sort of battle with sprites, it's going to be even harder with Vampires. Going in on an all-out melee isn't going to do you much good either, as JJ pointed out. In short, I don't think Vampires won't stand a chance against compareable number of hydras. The Vampires can take a hit from a decimated stack of Hydras and recouperate, but you have to decimate the stack first.
You don't want to make enemies in Nuclear Engineering. -- T. Pratchett
Well I've found that in battles like with 50 Cerberi against 30 Vampire Lords, you might lose maybe 5 Vampire Lords early and then drain it all back. The same should apply to the Deep Hydras. You could lose a lot of Vampire Lords but so long as one is still alive you can hope to recuperate your losses (especially with Animate Dead).
It does appear however that in these 1v1 situations you'll need to use some spells to back the Vampire Lords up (maybe Slow).
EDIT: I'm sorry Gaidal Cain, maybe I've developed too much of a defensive mentality these past few days...
It does appear however that in these 1v1 situations you'll need to use some spells to back the Vampire Lords up (maybe Slow).
EDIT: I'm sorry Gaidal Cain, maybe I've developed too much of a defensive mentality these past few days...
Last edited by Banedon on 16 Jan 2007, 15:17, edited 1 time in total.
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Jolly Joker
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One on one comparisons make no sense including spells. Resurrect, Raise Dead, Summon additional troops and so on - you can win nearly every fight this way.
Seeing them only for themselves and against neutrals and then with the help of the hero you can classify every unit every which way you want. I don't see what that leads to?
Seeing them only for themselves and against neutrals and then with the help of the hero you can classify every unit every which way you want. I don't see what that leads to?
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Jolly Joker
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The definitions imply, that they are Light Killers and therefore Medium Hunters as well. Moreover they are classified as Armored. That describes them fairly well: they can attack and kill medium support and artillery and since they are armored they can stand more than non-armored light killers which gives them an advantage over them.
Now imagine them attacking an artillery unit as Medium hunter. Since it doesn't have the killing punch it will take a couple of turns to kill the artillery stack (however harrasing them is enough). If they are attacked by the Heavy Hunter-Killer Deep Hydra, they do a lot better to regain their strength with their next hit against the normally far less durable artillery unit - so that the armored effect comes into play.
So as a Hunter the Vamp Lords are very good except against the Heavies, but as a killer they are light only.
It might be justified to rank them better than medium as a hunter (only), but I don't want too many different classes here, so I'm inclined to accept some, well, rounding-offs or rounding-ups here.
Now imagine them attacking an artillery unit as Medium hunter. Since it doesn't have the killing punch it will take a couple of turns to kill the artillery stack (however harrasing them is enough). If they are attacked by the Heavy Hunter-Killer Deep Hydra, they do a lot better to regain their strength with their next hit against the normally far less durable artillery unit - so that the armored effect comes into play.
So as a Hunter the Vamp Lords are very good except against the Heavies, but as a killer they are light only.
It might be justified to rank them better than medium as a hunter (only), but I don't want too many different classes here, so I'm inclined to accept some, well, rounding-offs or rounding-ups here.
And JJ it is not that we think your system is wrong, or mistaken, it is yours after all. Use and define them how you like. Just because we disagree with the classification (as I disagree with Banedon's classification of Furies as Finesse) doesn't mean it is not a good system. Just that regardless, people are going to put the creatures where they want if they use the system. So no system will be perfect, nor no classification of a unit. Simply because people will view the units in different ways. Sometimes it can be as simple as personal bias, or as complicated as they use them in a different way. For instance one of my favorite creatures is the Succubus Mistress. This would shade my classification of them regardless how hard I tried to make it not. Yet inferno is not my favorite town, despite the fact they contain my favorite creature in the whole game (currently at least..they put werewolves in I make no promises ). I think this discussion will not get us anywhere, and I don't think it will cause us to reclassify, but for the sake of understanding I do want to discuss it.
So lets pick a town, any town, and discuss why we classified each creature the way we did. Doesn't matter the town. In fact it might be interesting to go through all of them. Now I myself see things a lot differently then most, so my classifications will probably get more then a few guffaws. By all means, it won't hurt my feelings. I do want to understand why people like the units they like and how they see those units. Will help me tremendously to reevaluate why I do the same.
). I think this discussion will not get us anywhere, and I don't think it will cause us to reclassify, but for the sake of understanding I do want to discuss it.So lets pick a town, any town, and discuss why we classified each creature the way we did. Doesn't matter the town. In fact it might be interesting to go through all of them. Now I myself see things a lot differently then most, so my classifications will probably get more then a few guffaws. By all means, it won't hurt my feelings. I do want to understand why people like the units they like and how they see those units. Will help me tremendously to reevaluate why I do the same.
Warning, may cause confusion, blindness, raising of eybrows, and insanity.
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Jolly Joker
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Yes, Mytical, that's why I came up with it. Since you came up with Sylvans and Sylvans are interesting I'm going to do this now. Some explanations first.
You know, reading people's opinion about Sylvan you often read that this or that unit sucks: Emerald Dragons not doing enough damage, War Dancers useless, Unicorns mediocre and so on; on the other hand as many people complain about Sylvans lucky hits, the Hunters and the fact the battle was over when they at last got a move.
A look onto Sylvan units shows that 4 of their 5 non-shooters have a hell of an initiative. Seeing the Hunters and Druids and the very high Defense you could think, well, set everything on wait, cast something like a Mass Light spell, fire with your artillery and wait what happens, right? Wrong. I could make a case for each town what might happen and go wrong here, but suffice it to say here that this game is with the the attacker. They who attack first have a clear advantage, and seeing the Sylvans' initiative it gets a certainty.
Okay, after this prologue, the hero is:
Ranger: Support: Heavy Assault/Light Killer
a) Light Killer is due to a combination of the abilities of the racial skill's abilities with Destructive magic.
b) The racial special gives each unit a certain chance to perform one classification higher against up to three targets (i.e. a light killer may perform like a medium killer and so on). This includes the hero, but here the chance is a certainty, so the "Light Killer" trait becomes a Medium Killer trait for those targets that are on the shit list
For the units this is an incentive to attack the favored enemy targets because of the chance to perform one classification better (double damage = attack +20) Now add the fact that a Ranger without the Luck skill is no Ranger the chances of doing double damage somehow are pretty cool.
c) If that doesn't materialize the high defense primary of the hero helps mellowing the retaliation.
d) High Knowledge supports extended casting which is good for Destructive and Light Killer classification plus
e) All those Light Magic (mass) spells will greatly enhance the assault power of Sylvan units.
That makes it the following (and please note that as opposed to the Necro (skelly Warriors the hero special effect is NOT included in the unit classification; this is due to the fact that it isn't a certainty). To include the hero special you have actually to imagine that FOUR of the 8 attacks /2 for Hunters, the fourth luck based), but none of the retaliations will be double damage. That means, bottom line, you can imagine TWO RANDOM units PER BATTLE actually being one classification higher, with the Dragons having double as much chances as the Treants. Note further that the Hunters have excellent chances for one double damage hit as well.
Hero: Support: Heavy Assault/Light Killer
Sprites: Light Hunter/Support (Anti-Attrition)
War Dancers: Light Killer
Hunters: Artillery/Support (assault)
Druids: Artillery/Support (assault)
Unicorns: Killer
Treants:: Heavy Hunter-Killer
Dragons: Heavy Killer
Notes: I can imagine that some of you will classify different; I can explain things, though.
Mulling over Sylvans I had the idea for another classification, I'd like to discuss as well:
There are those multi-square attackers. I'd simply like to classify units that may attack more than one target at the same time with the prefix "Assault" (no matter the number of possible targets over 2).
This would make
Liches: ASSAULT Artillery/(Support...) (and I like that very much! Those War Machines killed additionally, for example to useful kill shot are worthj something, not to mention the splash damage.
Note that this will have consequences for the classification of the Succubi.
Changed classifivation:
Hero: Support: Heavy Assault/Light ASSAULT Killer
Sprites: Light ASSAULT Hunter/Support (Anti-Attrition) (yes, that sounds right)
War Dancer: Light ASSAULT Killer
.
Druids: Artillery/Light ASSAULT Artillery/Support (Assault)
.
Dragons: Heavy ASSAULT KILLER
Well, that's it... Should this be in a separate thread?
You know, reading people's opinion about Sylvan you often read that this or that unit sucks: Emerald Dragons not doing enough damage, War Dancers useless, Unicorns mediocre and so on; on the other hand as many people complain about Sylvans lucky hits, the Hunters and the fact the battle was over when they at last got a move.
A look onto Sylvan units shows that 4 of their 5 non-shooters have a hell of an initiative. Seeing the Hunters and Druids and the very high Defense you could think, well, set everything on wait, cast something like a Mass Light spell, fire with your artillery and wait what happens, right? Wrong. I could make a case for each town what might happen and go wrong here, but suffice it to say here that this game is with the the attacker. They who attack first have a clear advantage, and seeing the Sylvans' initiative it gets a certainty.
Okay, after this prologue, the hero is:
Ranger: Support: Heavy Assault/Light Killer
a) Light Killer is due to a combination of the abilities of the racial skill's abilities with Destructive magic.
b) The racial special gives each unit a certain chance to perform one classification higher against up to three targets (i.e. a light killer may perform like a medium killer and so on). This includes the hero, but here the chance is a certainty, so the "Light Killer" trait becomes a Medium Killer trait for those targets that are on the shit list
For the units this is an incentive to attack the favored enemy targets because of the chance to perform one classification better (double damage = attack +20) Now add the fact that a Ranger without the Luck skill is no Ranger the chances of doing double damage somehow are pretty cool.
c) If that doesn't materialize the high defense primary of the hero helps mellowing the retaliation.
d) High Knowledge supports extended casting which is good for Destructive and Light Killer classification plus
e) All those Light Magic (mass) spells will greatly enhance the assault power of Sylvan units.
That makes it the following (and please note that as opposed to the Necro (skelly Warriors the hero special effect is NOT included in the unit classification; this is due to the fact that it isn't a certainty). To include the hero special you have actually to imagine that FOUR of the 8 attacks /2 for Hunters, the fourth luck based), but none of the retaliations will be double damage. That means, bottom line, you can imagine TWO RANDOM units PER BATTLE actually being one classification higher, with the Dragons having double as much chances as the Treants. Note further that the Hunters have excellent chances for one double damage hit as well.
Hero: Support: Heavy Assault/Light Killer
Sprites: Light Hunter/Support (Anti-Attrition)
War Dancers: Light Killer
Hunters: Artillery/Support (assault)
Druids: Artillery/Support (assault)
Unicorns: Killer
Treants:: Heavy Hunter-Killer
Dragons: Heavy Killer
Notes: I can imagine that some of you will classify different; I can explain things, though.
Mulling over Sylvans I had the idea for another classification, I'd like to discuss as well:
There are those multi-square attackers. I'd simply like to classify units that may attack more than one target at the same time with the prefix "Assault" (no matter the number of possible targets over 2).
This would make
Liches: ASSAULT Artillery/(Support...) (and I like that very much! Those War Machines killed additionally, for example to useful kill shot are worthj something, not to mention the splash damage.
Note that this will have consequences for the classification of the Succubi.
Changed classifivation:
Hero: Support: Heavy Assault/Light ASSAULT Killer
Sprites: Light ASSAULT Hunter/Support (Anti-Attrition) (yes, that sounds right)
War Dancer: Light ASSAULT Killer
.
Druids: Artillery/Light ASSAULT Artillery/Support (Assault)
.
Dragons: Heavy ASSAULT KILLER
Well, that's it... Should this be in a separate thread?
Not bad, not bad at all. The only thing I can add is that there is slight changes between non-upgraded and upgraded units. And there may not be another town that makes this so evident. For instance Sprites.
A unicorn is indeed a killer. It's job is just to do as much damage as possible before expiring. A silver unicorn becomes a support/killer. It's magic resistance can sometimes better serve then it's damage. And with blind it is even more useful.
The elder druids ability to hit more then one unit with it's spell (when needed) makes it much more useful, as does it's ability to give the hero spellpoints.
Master Hunters- as long as you can keep them from being blocked, blinded, ect they are heavy killers. They can decimate even the tier 7's. Priority no.1 when facing a Sylvan army. Even the dragons can wait till these bad boys are taken out. As soon as they are forced into melee, however, they become Light Killers at best.
Now as for Artillery I didn't discuss it, because yeah I agree with your assessment there.
Now we get to Dancers. Sorry to me they are pretty much fodder. Support at best. Their job is to take the heat off of more valuable units (ie anything but them). Regardless if it is soaking up retals, making the enemy pay for sending 3 units to take out the MH, or just frustrating your opponit...they are there only to take damage. They don't really do enough damage, and since they are not ranged/caster/no-retal/flying they are sadly the single least useful unit to sylvan upgraded or not.
Since I can not even seem to get my creatures correct, maybe not such a good topic for me lol. Still, I do want to try to discuss
A unicorn is indeed a killer. It's job is just to do as much damage as possible before expiring. A silver unicorn becomes a support/killer. It's magic resistance can sometimes better serve then it's damage. And with blind it is even more useful.
The elder druids ability to hit more then one unit with it's spell (when needed) makes it much more useful, as does it's ability to give the hero spellpoints.
Master Hunters- as long as you can keep them from being blocked, blinded, ect they are heavy killers. They can decimate even the tier 7's. Priority no.1 when facing a Sylvan army. Even the dragons can wait till these bad boys are taken out. As soon as they are forced into melee, however, they become Light Killers at best.
Now as for Artillery I didn't discuss it, because yeah I agree with your assessment there.
Now we get to Dancers. Sorry to me they are pretty much fodder. Support at best. Their job is to take the heat off of more valuable units (ie anything but them). Regardless if it is soaking up retals, making the enemy pay for sending 3 units to take out the MH, or just frustrating your opponit...they are there only to take damage. They don't really do enough damage, and since they are not ranged/caster/no-retal/flying they are sadly the single least useful unit to sylvan upgraded or not.
Since I can not even seem to get my creatures correct, maybe not such a good topic for me lol. Still, I do want to try to discuss
Warning, may cause confusion, blindness, raising of eybrows, and insanity.
I don't know if it's just me, but my interest with Heroes 5...shall we say...waned very quickly after finishing the campaign. It's just too much like Heroes 3. There're plenty of improvements of course, but I consistently feel I've been through all of it and done it all. As of now I find many other games much more entertaining and doing so in a much shorter time (it takes hours to play a satisfying Heroes 5 game).
I think right now the biggest flaw with Heroes 5 (aside from it not being novel enough) is its abject slowness. Even with this powerful computer it takes a quite some time to load, for the AI to move, for a battle to end, etc. Another serious flaw is the lack of an inbuild 'skill-wheel', such that I've no idea without checking this website what is needed for a Ranger to learn Silent Stalker. I suppose it can be memorized, but that would require a commitment that I haven't right now (you can probably tell by my not posting that much).
It's depressing Hopefully better things will materialize someady.
I think right now the biggest flaw with Heroes 5 (aside from it not being novel enough) is its abject slowness. Even with this powerful computer it takes a quite some time to load, for the AI to move, for a battle to end, etc. Another serious flaw is the lack of an inbuild 'skill-wheel', such that I've no idea without checking this website what is needed for a Ranger to learn Silent Stalker. I suppose it can be memorized, but that would require a commitment that I haven't right now (you can probably tell by my not posting that much).
It's depressing
Hopefully better things will materialize someady.Who is online
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