As an amendment to my initial post, I thought a bit harder about Marksmen.
I'm inclined to put them into the support bin, mainly because Archers are more of a Finesse unit than Marksmen.
For certain reasons Marksmen are no valid prime target, mainly because of the Squires which will halve ranged attacks on them and will be a big pain against everyone who comes to them. I'd say that the Inquisitor-Squire-Marksmen triangle is a quite good support combo.
I am (finally) getting started with Heroes V
@JollyJoker - I think you are operating on different definitions as I am. I'm aware that this is the first time I'm posting definitions and they're probably imperfect, but still:
Killer - A killer unit is a unit whose main purpose is to kill. The killer unit is by nature valuable and will be one of the first targetted in a battle. By virtue of other qualities (eg. Range, high reproduction rate, HP, defense etc) they are relatively durable.
Finesse - A finesse unit is a unit who can deal damage but requires careful controlling and is generally unable to absorb damage. The best example is the Sprite. The Sprite can deal damage if left alone but the moment she is targetted she is either dead or suffers so heavy casualties that she becomes useless.
Fodder - A fodder unit is a unit whose prime use is to absorb retaliation and take damage.
Supporter - A supporter unit is a unit who supports the rest of his army by augmenting his allies and / or cursing his opponents, or supporting the rest of his army in some way.
The problem with your definitions as I see them is that you leave no room for finesse. Marksmen certainly are not finesse units - they can be trained to such high numbers that they are very dangerous killer units. Truth be told I didn't know about the Squire's ability to shield allies, but I'd still leave them as Fodder. If the Marksmen get charged they, together with the Peasants, are the first units to take the retaliation. Imperial Griffins deal awesome damage if they land with Battle Dive, but meanwhile they don't have that much HP nor that high a reproduction rate and they can't be trained. They take careful control and are thus finesse. As for Archangels, I used to think of them as Supporters / Finesse creatures as well until Godric and his 65 Angels wiped the hell out of my Level 29 Markal's Summon Phoenix
They don't deal bad damage at all.
@Okrane - The problem with classifying Spectral Dragons as supporters in my opinion is that Spectral Dragons are level 7 creatures with not-inconsiderable stats. Sure they are weak compared to other level 7s, but they reproduce at 3 / week and they certainly deal more damage than, say, a comparable stack of Griffins. You won't be using them to absorb retaliation, no. That job's for the Spectres and Plague Zombies. As for Magi as Supporters, why? They sure deal fine damage to me.
@Panda Tar -
Haven: You must be the only person who classify Inquistors as killers They don't deal good damage but they have high HP. They are, in my opinion, the most typical Supporter unit. But then it's up to you to decide. The rest of your classification I don't particularly disagree with. It certainly could be explained by differences in personal style.
Inferno: I view Nightmares as finesse, as I showed somewhere in the 27 pages before this one. They don't seem to deal that much damage in my opinion and my primary use of them is to charge Ranged units and stop them from firing. This does contradict my definition of them though, perhaps I should call them supporters.
Necropolis: I did originally classify Archliches as killers, but then wimfrits convinced me otherwise (with the absurdly simple argument that they don't deal that much damage - what was I thinking, that all ranged creatures are killers?). Well they cast Decay alright, but the non-linear scaling of damage makes me think otherwise.
Sylvan: Well War Dancers could be fodder, but they're weak to direct fire and deal OK damage. I personally use them as fodder all the time - I can't sacrifice my Master Hunters or Sprites for that purpose. But in all fairness they should be finesse. I don't think Silver Unicorns fit the killer unit definition as well, for more or less the same reason as Grim Raiders.
Dungeon: Well Grim Raiders really straddle the line between finesse and killer in my opinion. I would disagree with Black Dragons as finesse however - they certainly are the most godlike of all the level 7s and they deal really awesome damage. Alone they die of course, but in a battle they'd always be the first targetted for obvious reasons.
Academy: Well we agree almost completely. I think Archmagi retain their usefulness for quite a long time though.
I think we think along the same lines but arrive at different conclusions most of the time. That's OK. It's what I meant by personal bias.
Killer - A killer unit is a unit whose main purpose is to kill. The killer unit is by nature valuable and will be one of the first targetted in a battle. By virtue of other qualities (eg. Range, high reproduction rate, HP, defense etc) they are relatively durable.
Finesse - A finesse unit is a unit who can deal damage but requires careful controlling and is generally unable to absorb damage. The best example is the Sprite. The Sprite can deal damage if left alone but the moment she is targetted she is either dead or suffers so heavy casualties that she becomes useless.
Fodder - A fodder unit is a unit whose prime use is to absorb retaliation and take damage.
Supporter - A supporter unit is a unit who supports the rest of his army by augmenting his allies and / or cursing his opponents, or supporting the rest of his army in some way.
The problem with your definitions as I see them is that you leave no room for finesse. Marksmen certainly are not finesse units - they can be trained to such high numbers that they are very dangerous killer units. Truth be told I didn't know about the Squire's ability to shield allies, but I'd still leave them as Fodder. If the Marksmen get charged they, together with the Peasants, are the first units to take the retaliation. Imperial Griffins deal awesome damage if they land with Battle Dive, but meanwhile they don't have that much HP nor that high a reproduction rate and they can't be trained. They take careful control and are thus finesse. As for Archangels, I used to think of them as Supporters / Finesse creatures as well until Godric and his 65 Angels wiped the hell out of my Level 29 Markal's Summon Phoenix
They don't deal bad damage at all.@Okrane - The problem with classifying Spectral Dragons as supporters in my opinion is that Spectral Dragons are level 7 creatures with not-inconsiderable stats. Sure they are weak compared to other level 7s, but they reproduce at 3 / week and they certainly deal more damage than, say, a comparable stack of Griffins. You won't be using them to absorb retaliation, no. That job's for the Spectres and Plague Zombies. As for Magi as Supporters, why? They sure deal fine damage to me.
@Panda Tar -
Haven: You must be the only person who classify Inquistors as killers
They don't deal good damage but they have high HP. They are, in my opinion, the most typical Supporter unit. But then it's up to you to decide. The rest of your classification I don't particularly disagree with. It certainly could be explained by differences in personal style.Inferno: I view Nightmares as finesse, as I showed somewhere in the 27 pages before this one. They don't seem to deal that much damage in my opinion and my primary use of them is to charge Ranged units and stop them from firing. This does contradict my definition of them though, perhaps I should call them supporters.
Necropolis: I did originally classify Archliches as killers, but then wimfrits convinced me otherwise (with the absurdly simple argument that they don't deal that much damage - what was I thinking, that all ranged creatures are killers?). Well they cast Decay alright, but the non-linear scaling of damage makes me think otherwise.
Sylvan: Well War Dancers could be fodder, but they're weak to direct fire and deal OK damage. I personally use them as fodder all the time - I can't sacrifice my Master Hunters or Sprites for that purpose. But in all fairness they should be finesse. I don't think Silver Unicorns fit the killer unit definition as well, for more or less the same reason as Grim Raiders.
Dungeon: Well Grim Raiders really straddle the line between finesse and killer in my opinion. I would disagree with Black Dragons as finesse however - they certainly are the most godlike of all the level 7s and they deal really awesome damage. Alone they die of course, but in a battle they'd always be the first targetted for obvious reasons.
Academy: Well we agree almost completely. I think Archmagi retain their usefulness for quite a long time though.
I think we think along the same lines but arrive at different conclusions most of the time. That's OK. It's what I meant by personal bias.
That's really why I think they're potential killers.Banedon wrote:Inferno: I view Nightmares as finesse, as I showed somewhere in the 27 pages before this one. They don't seem to deal that much damage in my opinion and my primary use of them is to charge Ranged units and stop them from firing. This does contradict my definition of them though, perhaps I should call them supporters.
If most of the ranged units, taking the inquisitor and Titan out, are not really strong against melee, nightmares may quite become killers this way.As for Archliches, I always have them as a killer on my troops, that's why I see no other classification. Maybe it's the way I manage the spinal lizards...
"There’s nothing to fear but fear itself and maybe some mild to moderate jellification of bones." Cave Johnson, Portal 2. 
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Jolly Joker
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Well that, definition don't seem to fit the game very well. Let me explain.
First of all, we shouldn't let ourself be blinded by masses. Sure 65 Archangels are a killer troop, but 130 Paladins will still be much more of a killer troop.
To really be able to judge a unit the proportion of numbers must be kept. If there are 65 AAs around so are proportionally other troops.
To classify the units it makes sense to take the weekly productions for each town plus a bonus for additional weeks production of the lower level creatures, all in some reasonable time frame. This time frame shouldn't be more than 2 months and I think 2 months are pretty okay.
For Haven I'd say you should take into account something like:
level 1,2,4 in week 1.
Citadel, level 3 and level 5 in week 2
Castle and level 6 in week 3
and Altar of Haven in week 4.
That may sound conservative, but I'd do it on a comparable way with the other towns as well.
That would make an army of
9 AAs, 22 Paladins, 37 Inquisitors, 67 Griffins, 125 Squires, about 180 archers and about 350 Militia
From that you have to subtract some losses, something like 50 Peasants and maybe 10 or 15 Squires, plus a couple of Archers (losses against Master Gremlins, Skeleton Archers and so on) You can reduce the remaining number of Militia and and add a fractional value of Marksmen to involve Training Grounds.
If you compare your definitions with your rankings you will see that one or another isn't working. with your definition. Those 200 Marksmen won't kill the 22 Paladins, but the 22 Paladins will kill those 200 Marksmen. Or take Familiars classified as killers. One hit and they die. Killers? Yes, but not under your definition.
So I think those definitions are not working for your own classifications (or vice versa). What are you going to do about that (before we discuss this further).
First of all, we shouldn't let ourself be blinded by masses. Sure 65 Archangels are a killer troop, but 130 Paladins will still be much more of a killer troop.
To really be able to judge a unit the proportion of numbers must be kept. If there are 65 AAs around so are proportionally other troops.
To classify the units it makes sense to take the weekly productions for each town plus a bonus for additional weeks production of the lower level creatures, all in some reasonable time frame. This time frame shouldn't be more than 2 months and I think 2 months are pretty okay.
For Haven I'd say you should take into account something like:
level 1,2,4 in week 1.
Citadel, level 3 and level 5 in week 2
Castle and level 6 in week 3
and Altar of Haven in week 4.
That may sound conservative, but I'd do it on a comparable way with the other towns as well.
That would make an army of
9 AAs, 22 Paladins, 37 Inquisitors, 67 Griffins, 125 Squires, about 180 archers and about 350 Militia
From that you have to subtract some losses, something like 50 Peasants and maybe 10 or 15 Squires, plus a couple of Archers (losses against Master Gremlins, Skeleton Archers and so on) You can reduce the remaining number of Militia and and add a fractional value of Marksmen to involve Training Grounds.
If you compare your definitions with your rankings you will see that one or another isn't working. with your definition. Those 200 Marksmen won't kill the 22 Paladins, but the 22 Paladins will kill those 200 Marksmen. Or take Familiars classified as killers. One hit and they die. Killers? Yes, but not under your definition.
So I think those definitions are not working for your own classifications (or vice versa). What are you going to do about that (before we discuss this further).
Replying to who?Jolly Joker wrote:So I think those definitions are not working for your own classifications (or vice versa). What are you going to do about that (before we discuss this further).
When I was reviewing mentally all the times I went playing that game (it's not that much at all), I've taken an average position. As my point of view, balancing early game and later game may end up like that, yes. But won't discuss further on, though. I have not much experience on gameplay to make such stats-by-stats analysis, which I find a bit wearing. 
I'll stop here.If you're replying to Banedon only, see smiley below:
Added later:
IC.Jolly Joker wrote:However, I don't want to show he is not right or something. Instead I want him to come with workable definitions and classifications as a basis of discussion. At this point I'm not yet discussing but just trying to establish a firm ground for it.
Last edited by Panda Tar on 15 Jan 2007, 17:41, edited 2 times in total.
"There’s nothing to fear but fear itself and maybe some mild to moderate jellification of bones." Cave Johnson, Portal 2.
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Jolly Joker
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I was replying to Banedon only.
This is going a bit too fast for my liking.
For example: He defines a "killer" as:
Killer - A killer unit is a unit whose main purpose is to kill. The killer unit is by nature valuable and will be one of the first targetted in a battle. By virtue of other qualities (eg. Range, high reproduction rate, HP, defense etc) they are relatively durable.
He classifies Familiars as killers then. With a weekly production of 192 HPs and a defense of 2 they are not all that durable, and they will be targeted in battle first only under certain circumstances (if you can reduce them greatly before they get their first turn which is highly unlikely due to their high initiative. So while I don't really have anything against classifying Familiars as killers, Banedon's definitions and classifications are not fitting. very well at this point.
Another thing is his 65 AA point.
However, I don't want to show he is not right or something. Instead I want him to come with workable definitions and classifications as a basis of discussion. At this point I'm not yet discussing but just trying to establish a firm ground for it.
This is going a bit too fast for my liking.
For example: He defines a "killer" as:
Killer - A killer unit is a unit whose main purpose is to kill. The killer unit is by nature valuable and will be one of the first targetted in a battle. By virtue of other qualities (eg. Range, high reproduction rate, HP, defense etc) they are relatively durable.
He classifies Familiars as killers then. With a weekly production of 192 HPs and a defense of 2 they are not all that durable, and they will be targeted in battle first only under certain circumstances (if you can reduce them greatly before they get their first turn which is highly unlikely due to their high initiative. So while I don't really have anything against classifying Familiars as killers, Banedon's definitions and classifications are not fitting. very well at this point.
Another thing is his 65 AA point.
However, I don't want to show he is not right or something. Instead I want him to come with workable definitions and classifications as a basis of discussion. At this point I'm not yet discussing but just trying to establish a firm ground for it.
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Gaidal Cain
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The problem with your definitions is that they overlap too much (as they well should be, if this kind of scheme would be perfect it would be a sign of poor uality). Furies, for example, can fit both in the Finesse and Support group (pair them with some raiders and they'll start augmenting it's abilities). Hydras, as you've already realized, can be both fodder and killer. A unit like the Blackbear Rider can both act as killer and as support. There are some units that always are going to act in a certain way in a normal game - Skeletons are going to do lots of damage, zombies aren't - and some that won't: your furies might be able to wrok as killers if you get an extra dwelling and support them properly with your hero. This is even more true for Golems, with March of the Golems and Artificial Glory.Banedon wrote:Killer - A killer unit is a unit whose main purpose is to kill. The killer unit is by nature valuable and will be one of the first targetted in a battle. By virtue of other qualities (eg. Range, high reproduction rate, HP, defense etc) they are relatively durable.
Finesse - A finesse unit is a unit who can deal damage but requires careful controlling and is generally unable to absorb damage. The best example is the Sprite. The Sprite can deal damage if left alone but the moment she is targetted she is either dead or suffers so heavy casualties that she becomes useless.
Fodder - A fodder unit is a unit whose prime use is to absorb retaliation and take damage.
Supporter - A supporter unit is a unit who supports the rest of his army by augmenting his allies and / or cursing his opponents, or supporting the rest of his army in some way.
You don't want to make enemies in Nuclear Engineering. -- T. Pratchett
Yes and that is why I have 'conditional killer' also . As well as some other definitions.
Conditional Killer - A unit that with the right support and skills transfom from Finesse to Killers. A good example would be the Furies. With the proper skills, support, and backing the Furies can be killer. Also within their tier they can be considered killers at all times. While Banedon has a point that Furies sometimes need a bit of finesse, I think sometimes Paladins do also. True they don't avoid damage per se, but sometimes you need to 'finesse' them to be more productive. A true non-finesse unit would not ever need to do anything but attack (even if fodder) and absorb damage. For instance .... lets take marksmen, something Banedon says are killer (and I quite agree). As soon as they are in melee (if it comes to that) their killer title is in savere jeopardy. Sure this may not happen often, but it can happen, and even to the best of players.
So most ranged units become part finesse (keeping them out of melee) and part killer (with a few exceptions of course). So I think the classification really doesn't work. Too many variables, at least as currently used.
. As well as some other definitions.Conditional Killer - A unit that with the right support and skills transfom from Finesse to Killers. A good example would be the Furies. With the proper skills, support, and backing the Furies can be killer. Also within their tier they can be considered killers at all times. While Banedon has a point that Furies sometimes need a bit of finesse, I think sometimes Paladins do also. True they don't avoid damage per se, but sometimes you need to 'finesse' them to be more productive. A true non-finesse unit would not ever need to do anything but attack (even if fodder) and absorb damage. For instance .... lets take marksmen, something Banedon says are killer (and I quite agree). As soon as they are in melee (if it comes to that) their killer title is in savere jeopardy. Sure this may not happen often, but it can happen, and even to the best of players.
So most ranged units become part finesse (keeping them out of melee) and part killer (with a few exceptions of course). So I think the classification really doesn't work. Too many variables, at least as currently used.
Warning, may cause confusion, blindness, raising of eybrows, and insanity. 
@okrane - Did we do something wrong?
As for the 65 Archangels problem, in the army you mentioned the Paladins will be in charge of the main killing, but the Archangels will have their own job as well. Despite the numerical advantage the Archangels deal very heavy damage in comparison with the rest of the Haven army.
The Familiars as Killers classification is certainly a biased one. They deal significant damage for a level 1 creature, I think that's something we can all agree upon. On the other hand, they can't afford to be targetted as well. I'd point out however that Inferno's classifications miss the Gating part of Inferno. The stack of 200 Familiars with have a giant buddy stack that can teleport to any point of the battlefield and deal its damage. That's not really insignificant.
@Gaidal Cain and Mytical - Yes. Let's just say their main uses then, in the most general sense. I can certainly imagine you finding so many Peasant dwellings, dismissing and then re-hiring Ellaine and so on until you have 2k Peasants. Now that would be a killing stack, but the situation's far-fetched
The problem with attempting to count all the units available is that there's bound to be something extra popping up somewhere. Say you find Ellaine in your tavern, that's an extra 70+ Marksmen there and then. Or maybe some creatures elected to join you, or perhaps you took another castle, etc. In the army you mentioned you're right the first target will be the Paladins, the second being the Archangels. It's not a really fair army however since there'll be a whole lot more Marksmen on the battlefield (apparently it's possible to have 500 Marksmen by the end of the fifth week, but I don't know; I've never tried it before).JollyJoker wrote:That may sound conservative, but I'd do it on a comparable way with the other towns as well.
That would make an army of
9 AAs, 22 Paladins, 37 Inquisitors, 67 Griffins, 125 Squires, about 180 archers and about 350 Militia
From that you have to subtract some losses, something like 50 Peasants and maybe 10 or 15 Squires, plus a couple of Archers (losses against Master Gremlins, Skeleton Archers and so on) You can reduce the remaining number of Militia and and add a fractional value of Marksmen to involve Training Grounds.
As for the 65 Archangels problem, in the army you mentioned the Paladins will be in charge of the main killing, but the Archangels will have their own job as well. Despite the numerical advantage the Archangels deal very heavy damage in comparison with the rest of the Haven army.
The Familiars as Killers classification is certainly a biased one. They deal significant damage for a level 1 creature, I think that's something we can all agree upon. On the other hand, they can't afford to be targetted as well. I'd point out however that Inferno's classifications miss the Gating part of Inferno. The stack of 200 Familiars with have a giant buddy stack that can teleport to any point of the battlefield and deal its damage. That's not really insignificant.
@Gaidal Cain and Mytical - Yes. Let's just say their main uses then, in the most general sense. I can certainly imagine you finding so many Peasant dwellings, dismissing and then re-hiring Ellaine and so on until you have 2k Peasants. Now that would be a killing stack, but the situation's far-fetched
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winterfate
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@Banedon: It is. 500 is a bit farfetched, but numbers over 250 are easily reachable by week 5.(apparently it's possible to have 500 Marksmen by the end of the fifth week, but I don't know; I've never tried it before).
No. Perhaps okrane fears what I do as well; that this might become another mindless argument. But I get the feeling this particular discussion will be a lot more civil than the previous one@okrane - Did we do something wrong?
.I salute you, JJ! I'd rather see 100 discussions than one argument anydayHowever, I don't want to show he is not right or something. Instead I want him to come with workable definitions and classifications as a basis of discussion. At this point I'm not yet discussing but just trying to establish a firm ground for it.
! For the sake of this discussion, I'll add some definitions I wrote a while back:
Note: I take this from a few pages back in this thread. These definitions may not be complete...but here goes:
Killer - I would define it as a strong unit (or perhaps weak unit, hard to aim at) that can deal out strong amounts of damage in one blow (or several lesser, but quicker blows).
Finesse - A unit, usually support, that fulfills one or more of these purposes:
a. Deal damage
b. Draw enemy fire
c. Prevent damage (squire's shield allies)
d. Any other support abilities you can think of.
Hence, why I believe (and I've mentioned this several times already) there should be a finesse-killer category:
Finesse-Killer - A support unit, not as strong as a killer, but stronger than a finesse unit, that uses (and I emphasize this next part) battle tactics to overpower their foes. What I mean by this is that (and I'll take grim Raiders as my example) when you have the finesse-killer, you draw retaliation with the killer (or resilient cannon fodder) and then you attack with the F-Killer.
Here we go. Feel free to comment on this...and if it helps the discussion out in any way...all the better!
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Proud creator of Caladont 2.0!
You need to take the pain, learn from it and get back on that bike... - stefan
Sometimes the hearts most troubled make the sweetest melodies... - winterfate
Well, look at this (yes it's in Chinese, but still).@Banedon: It is. 500 is a bit farfetched, but numbers over 250 are easily reachable by week 5.
http://gamebbs.enet.com.cn/thread-2912125-1-7.html
The game was played on a map abbreviated FF, its fully name being something like 'from...frind...' Heroic difficulty. The game was Haven vs. Academy (in case anyone wonders, Haven won this round) where the Haven player was introduced by the topic starter as a player who specializes in getting 600+ Marksmen by the first month.
He would later have the following army by week 6:
490 Marksmen
26 Priests
40+ Imperial Griffins
60+ Squires
13 Archangels
How he got that many Archangels is beyond me. It does not appear possible unless he had resources from outside his castle (possible - I didn't check the map, there may have been Refugee camps for instance). I mentioned the 500 number because of that post. I don't know if it's possible however; I've never tried.
500 marksmen is not so far fetched (nor is 2k peasents but that is another story though deffinately no 2k peasents in 5 weeks.)
Ok 500 marksmen in 5 weeks would be possible if you have a lot of cash (or the Isabel that reduces training cost by 2% per level at a decent level). Now I don't have the exact math but you take the weekly growth of marksmen + weekly growth of peasents + weekly growth of both peasent and marksmen dwellings outside of towns. 500 doesn't seem so far fetched now. Of course you would have to have been very lucky with chests, ect to pay for all of that.
As for main jobs, well I even see the creatures main jobs a little different then you.
For instance - Peasants. Peasants main job is not fodder, it is to sit in my castle getting me cash, so they are support (they support my treasury). Now in battle, sure, they are fodder, but I prefer not to have them in battle at all. I will upgrade them to marksmen 1st.
Imps - Support - their main job is to reduce my enemies mana pool. They become fodder afterwards for I don't mind sacrificing them to protect say my Succubi or more important creatures.
Familiars - same as imp but add that they increase my mana available also.
Blade Dancers - Support - they have to support my Master Hunters to help make sure they remain 'killers' and don't have to worry as much about melee.
Unupgraded Furies - I would deffinately put as finesse. They have to be handled carefully and stay out of the limelight.
Upgraded Furies - Killer. Their job is to attack and keep attacking. True they don't absorb damage, but their job is to deal damage. Can also be support if you use them to support the Matriarches or Grim Raiders.
Minotaurs (either) fodder - Their job is to absorb the damage so others don't have too. Though tough, they have to die so other more useful creatures can live.
Ok 500 marksmen in 5 weeks would be possible if you have a lot of cash (or the Isabel that reduces training cost by 2% per level at a decent level). Now I don't have the exact math but you take the weekly growth of marksmen + weekly growth of peasents + weekly growth of both peasent and marksmen dwellings outside of towns. 500 doesn't seem so far fetched now. Of course you would have to have been very lucky with chests, ect to pay for all of that.
As for main jobs, well I even see the creatures main jobs a little different then you.
For instance - Peasants. Peasants main job is not fodder, it is to sit in my castle getting me cash, so they are support (they support my treasury). Now in battle, sure, they are fodder, but I prefer not to have them in battle at all. I will upgrade them to marksmen 1st.
Imps - Support - their main job is to reduce my enemies mana pool. They become fodder afterwards for I don't mind sacrificing them to protect say my Succubi or more important creatures.
Familiars - same as imp but add that they increase my mana available also.
Blade Dancers - Support - they have to support my Master Hunters to help make sure they remain 'killers' and don't have to worry as much about melee.
Unupgraded Furies - I would deffinately put as finesse. They have to be handled carefully and stay out of the limelight.
Upgraded Furies - Killer. Their job is to attack and keep attacking. True they don't absorb damage, but their job is to deal damage. Can also be support if you use them to support the Matriarches or Grim Raiders.
Minotaurs (either) fodder - Their job is to absorb the damage so others don't have too. Though tough, they have to die so other more useful creatures can live.
Warning, may cause confusion, blindness, raising of eybrows, and insanity.
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Jolly Joker
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I think the main mistake here is leaving the hero out of the picture.
Let's first establish that the patches 2.1/1.5 will bring the long awaited and necessary changes for the Training and Necromancy ability that will keep a lid on things because both changes will make sure that the map will make no difference and things will always work the same which will establish a lid for the possible number of trained and raised creatures.
Okay, the hero. Let's have a look at the Necro hero because it's the most obvious to deal with.
It's the Necro who makes a killer out of the Skeleton Archer because it's only the Necro hero with the Necromancy skill that makes sure that creature comes in quantity. And while the masses of Skeleton Archers are a killer unit, they are still finesse as well, finesse, because there have to be SOME prerequisitions fulfilled when they are to develop their full damage potential (i.e, they need support like body guards and an Ammo Cart, for example). Without the Necro that makes them plentiful the Skelly Archer wouldn't be more than a light support unit without any punch (which is what you get when you fight them as neutrals). So let's take a look at what the Necro with their characteristics does for the Necro army:
a) He establishes the Skelly Archer as what I would call a Heavy Artillery unit; he does this primarily with Necromancy, but things like Frenzy, Archery, Toughness and so on help. A further help is the Raise Dead spell in combination with Summoning magic because that makes the unit less "finesse".
b) He supports the army with his second primary skill defense by making it more durable and therefor less "finesse"
c) He supports the army with Summoning magic, that allows him to bring in reinforcements like Phantoms, Elementals and a Phoenix; this is basically the same trait than the Necro skill in a: it's supporting the army by adding quantity. Here the primary trait spell power helps and makes sure the quantities are high
d) He supports his army with Dark magic by weakening the opposition, which fits in with the second primary defense well
e) the hero himself, by his high spell power, is a Light Artillery unit himself, if getting a destructive spell.
Since points a to d all work together in a certain way I'd characterize the hero as: Heavy Support: Attrition/Light Artillery. That means: the main hero attribute is Support, the type of support can be characterized as Attrition due to quantity and durability raising traits plus weakening of the opposition and the Hero itself is a Light Artillery unit if necessary (and as a secondary function). Note that this will later allow to describe the Warlock Hero as: Heavy Artillery/Light Support: Assault
It's the hero who establishes the Skeleton Archer as his main killing instrument through the whole game and the only, well, deviation from that may be in a phase when your hero isn't strong enough to replace the losses that come from fighting heavy caster or shooter stacks and and you add Ghosts and Vampires as Support troops to harrass the opposition and keep it from targeting too many Archers. Otherwise a durable body guard support and an ammo cart makes them generally more effective, but the role of possible body guard changes from real guards in the beginning to "keepers of dealing the full damage and suffer no retaliation" in full army fights later on.
That means that the unit classifications here are not very helpful. You can safely declare all Necro units except level 1 "support troops" and you'd be right, but that wouldn't be of help. How about something like this then (and I'm going to explain the classes afterwards)?
Hero: Heavy Support: Attrition/Light Artillery
Skelly Archers: Heavy Artillery
Zombies: Light Hunter-Killer; supports Attrition
Spectres: Armored Light Hunter
Vampires: Armored Light Killer
Liches: Artillery/Support (attrition)
Wraiths: Killer; supports attrition
Dragons: Killer; supports attrition
All classes are either Light, (normal) or Heavy.
Heavy means it can kill and deal with everything;
Light means it can KILL (not deal with!) only light units,
normal (neither heavy nor light) means that it can kill everything but will not excell against the biggies.
Artillery means first and foremost that the unit is stationary and can reach the whole battlefield attack-wise.
Because of Artillery there are Hunters. Hunters are basically Artillery and Support Killers. A hunter is effective against most artillery and some support units even if it doesn't kill them fully because of the hamper and harrassing effects
Armored means that the unit has some special that makes it better prepared to suffer and survive damage which is a good thing for a hunter.
A killer can be used as a hunter and as a hunter-KILLER (which is a class on its own as well. If it's used as a hunter it's a class heavier: A Light Killer is a Hunter as well. A Killer is a Heavy Hunter as well. A killer is faster than a hunter-killer and can actively search and destroy hunters. As a killer a unit must be stronger in attack because it is important to KILL the hunters, if possible, not only to damage them to make harrassing and hampering impossible.
Support means, that the unit has means to strengthen the army, either by spells or special ability
A unit that is not a killer, but only a hunter-killer is slow and heavy for its level and used as a bodyguard mainly. It cannot be used as hunter or even killer, mainly because of its slowness (speed OR initiative), therefore, as a hunter-KILLER, it's more passive.
Notes: A HEAVY KILLER which would be something like a SUPER-HEAVY Hunter is a unit the Necro doesn't have. Heavy Killers therefore can be dealt only with the Heavy Artillery and via Attrition. On another note I'd say that at present the Skeleton Archers would be more like a Super-Heavy Artillery. Since this will change, though, I'm quite happy with the heavy artillery.
That's it. It sounds rather complicated, but isn't in the end. It was fun to develop. I think, it's a good base to have a deeper look into the strategies of the towns.
Comments please.
Let's first establish that the patches 2.1/1.5 will bring the long awaited and necessary changes for the Training and Necromancy ability that will keep a lid on things because both changes will make sure that the map will make no difference and things will always work the same which will establish a lid for the possible number of trained and raised creatures.
Okay, the hero. Let's have a look at the Necro hero because it's the most obvious to deal with.
It's the Necro who makes a killer out of the Skeleton Archer because it's only the Necro hero with the Necromancy skill that makes sure that creature comes in quantity. And while the masses of Skeleton Archers are a killer unit, they are still finesse as well, finesse, because there have to be SOME prerequisitions fulfilled when they are to develop their full damage potential (i.e, they need support like body guards and an Ammo Cart, for example). Without the Necro that makes them plentiful the Skelly Archer wouldn't be more than a light support unit without any punch (which is what you get when you fight them as neutrals). So let's take a look at what the Necro with their characteristics does for the Necro army:
a) He establishes the Skelly Archer as what I would call a Heavy Artillery unit; he does this primarily with Necromancy, but things like Frenzy, Archery, Toughness and so on help. A further help is the Raise Dead spell in combination with Summoning magic because that makes the unit less "finesse".
b) He supports the army with his second primary skill defense by making it more durable and therefor less "finesse"
c) He supports the army with Summoning magic, that allows him to bring in reinforcements like Phantoms, Elementals and a Phoenix; this is basically the same trait than the Necro skill in a: it's supporting the army by adding quantity. Here the primary trait spell power helps and makes sure the quantities are high
d) He supports his army with Dark magic by weakening the opposition, which fits in with the second primary defense well
e) the hero himself, by his high spell power, is a Light Artillery unit himself, if getting a destructive spell.
Since points a to d all work together in a certain way I'd characterize the hero as: Heavy Support: Attrition/Light Artillery. That means: the main hero attribute is Support, the type of support can be characterized as Attrition due to quantity and durability raising traits plus weakening of the opposition and the Hero itself is a Light Artillery unit if necessary (and as a secondary function). Note that this will later allow to describe the Warlock Hero as: Heavy Artillery/Light Support: Assault
It's the hero who establishes the Skeleton Archer as his main killing instrument through the whole game and the only, well, deviation from that may be in a phase when your hero isn't strong enough to replace the losses that come from fighting heavy caster or shooter stacks and and you add Ghosts and Vampires as Support troops to harrass the opposition and keep it from targeting too many Archers. Otherwise a durable body guard support and an ammo cart makes them generally more effective, but the role of possible body guard changes from real guards in the beginning to "keepers of dealing the full damage and suffer no retaliation" in full army fights later on.
That means that the unit classifications here are not very helpful. You can safely declare all Necro units except level 1 "support troops" and you'd be right, but that wouldn't be of help. How about something like this then (and I'm going to explain the classes afterwards)?
Hero: Heavy Support: Attrition/Light Artillery
Skelly Archers: Heavy Artillery
Zombies: Light Hunter-Killer; supports Attrition
Spectres: Armored Light Hunter
Vampires: Armored Light Killer
Liches: Artillery/Support (attrition)
Wraiths: Killer; supports attrition
Dragons: Killer; supports attrition
All classes are either Light, (normal) or Heavy.
Heavy means it can kill and deal with everything;
Light means it can KILL (not deal with!) only light units,
normal (neither heavy nor light) means that it can kill everything but will not excell against the biggies.
Artillery means first and foremost that the unit is stationary and can reach the whole battlefield attack-wise.
Because of Artillery there are Hunters. Hunters are basically Artillery and Support Killers. A hunter is effective against most artillery and some support units even if it doesn't kill them fully because of the hamper and harrassing effects
Armored means that the unit has some special that makes it better prepared to suffer and survive damage which is a good thing for a hunter.
A killer can be used as a hunter and as a hunter-KILLER (which is a class on its own as well. If it's used as a hunter it's a class heavier: A Light Killer is a Hunter as well. A Killer is a Heavy Hunter as well. A killer is faster than a hunter-killer and can actively search and destroy hunters. As a killer a unit must be stronger in attack because it is important to KILL the hunters, if possible, not only to damage them to make harrassing and hampering impossible.
Support means, that the unit has means to strengthen the army, either by spells or special ability
A unit that is not a killer, but only a hunter-killer is slow and heavy for its level and used as a bodyguard mainly. It cannot be used as hunter or even killer, mainly because of its slowness (speed OR initiative), therefore, as a hunter-KILLER, it's more passive.
Notes: A HEAVY KILLER which would be something like a SUPER-HEAVY Hunter is a unit the Necro doesn't have. Heavy Killers therefore can be dealt only with the Heavy Artillery and via Attrition. On another note I'd say that at present the Skeleton Archers would be more like a Super-Heavy Artillery. Since this will change, though, I'm quite happy with the heavy artillery.
That's it. It sounds rather complicated, but isn't in the end. It was fun to develop. I think, it's a good base to have a deeper look into the strategies of the towns.
Comments please.
Last edited by Jolly Joker on 16 Jan 2007, 09:29, edited 2 times in total.
Well I would ask how Vampires are considered light. The only time I could consider them light is vs other undead or mechanical/elemental units. In decent numbers Vampires become scary. Self regenning and no retal is a heck of a combo. They can successfully fight the bigger badies because of this combination. Heck they are more of a killer then furies (who can't regenerate) or kitties (who for their level have really low hp). Maybe put them as Normal? Other then that it is long and a bit difficult but not too bad.
Warning, may cause confusion, blindness, raising of eybrows, and insanity.
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Jolly Joker
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Their damage output isn't big enough, especially not in fights against another armies (when opposing units are supported as well), therefore they don't have the power to stop Heavy Hunters. Please read the definitions again, that will make things clearer. They do a good job as Hunters, because they are fast and they will do good against other Hunters, but that makes them Light Killers only (which implies (normal) Hunter. Their special is in the ARMORED characteristics which makes them more of a pain for a killer, when they are used as Hunters, but as a killer they are lacking the stopping power.
See I see it a bit different though. There damage has to be basically doubled except vs no-retal creatures. Not only do they get a chance to do damage without taking any, but when they take damage normally they get a chance to return damage. Further each time they are hurt and deal damage, part of that damage regenerates them. By your deffinition normal can take on any other tier but not do as well against any high tiers. Well though they suffer against say tier 7's, in general even tier 6's can have a bit of a rough time (as mostly there are many more of the vamps then the tier 6's). There are a few exceptions (like the kitties because then vamps don't get the benifit of doubling their damage) but if you can clasify any no-retal as a Armored Normal Killer, then you would have to do the same for vamps. However it is your classification system, so you can classify them as you see fit. I think any classification system will have flaws however.
Warning, may cause confusion, blindness, raising of eybrows, and insanity.
Highly complicated in my opinion, but here're some thoughts:
@Artillery definition - in other words, it's a Ranged unit. Why not use that as the definition instead?
@Light definition - if that's the definition then I think your classification is a bit flawed, since you classify Plague Zombies, Spectres and Vampire Lords as 'light' which means they can deal with each other, but the only thing I can see is the Vampire Lords massacring the other two.
@Hunter - killer - I think you could classify that instead as either 'guard' or even 'fodder'. If they're only going to stand there and take damage that's what they are under my classification.
@Attrition - this is something you didn't define.
Your classification's at least as valid as mine, testimony that this game isn't so simple that it can be categorized so simply. That's not that there're no flaws though. Look at what I surmise for Dungeon:
Assassin - Light artillery
Blood Fury - Normal hunter
Minotaur Guards - Normal hunter-killer
Grim Raiders - Normal killer
Deep Hydras - Armored unique unit (the flaw in your classification, like with mine)
Shadow Matriaches - Heavy artillery / supporter
Black Dragons - Heavy killer
Your classification missed out on (which I still think is true) the fact that Dungeon lacks a real killer unit early. Dungeon uses two units to do killing then (three if you count the hero), the Blood Furies and Grim Raiders. Neither unfortunately are that adept at taking damage, and Dungeon's lacking in buffs to aid them with. Your classification missed out this part and forces Grim Raiders into the killer category, which doesn't fit them that well in my opinion.
Oh, and I certainly don't think Vampire Lords are light. They're much closer to normal than light. They can't take on (say) Archdevils and live of course but they can take on all the creatures around their tier and below quite well.
Just some thoughts.
@Artillery definition - in other words, it's a Ranged unit. Why not use that as the definition instead?
@Light definition - if that's the definition then I think your classification is a bit flawed, since you classify Plague Zombies, Spectres and Vampire Lords as 'light' which means they can deal with each other, but the only thing I can see is the Vampire Lords massacring the other two.
@Hunter - killer - I think you could classify that instead as either 'guard' or even 'fodder'. If they're only going to stand there and take damage that's what they are under my classification.
@Attrition - this is something you didn't define.
Your classification's at least as valid as mine, testimony that this game isn't so simple that it can be categorized so simply. That's not that there're no flaws though. Look at what I surmise for Dungeon:
Assassin - Light artillery
Blood Fury - Normal hunter
Minotaur Guards - Normal hunter-killer
Grim Raiders - Normal killer
Deep Hydras - Armored unique unit (the flaw in your classification, like with mine)
Shadow Matriaches - Heavy artillery / supporter
Black Dragons - Heavy killer
Your classification missed out on (which I still think is true) the fact that Dungeon lacks a real killer unit early. Dungeon uses two units to do killing then (three if you count the hero), the Blood Furies and Grim Raiders. Neither unfortunately are that adept at taking damage, and Dungeon's lacking in buffs to aid them with. Your classification missed out this part and forces Grim Raiders into the killer category, which doesn't fit them that well in my opinion.
Oh, and I certainly don't think Vampire Lords are light. They're much closer to normal than light. They can't take on (say) Archdevils and live of course but they can take on all the creatures around their tier and below quite well.
Just some thoughts.
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Jolly Joker
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That it is MY classification is no reason not to discuss it.
The Life Stealing in combination makes the Armored classification, but that has nothing to do with the rest.
The main treat for being a KILLER (and there light, normal or heavy) is the ability to KILL. The main treat for being a HUNTER is the ability to ENGAGE and HARRESS, i.e., you don't need to kill the unit as fast as possible, it's enough when you can engage them.
That's why the Vampires are excellent Hunters, but even there no Heavies because they can be killed by a killer, but they are only light Killers because they miss the attack and damage power. In a real fight, since Vampires are a no-retal unit: the unit the Vampires attack will NOT be the unit that attacks the Vampires. Instead there will come a killer. In turn, if the Vamps attack a killer, they won't do much damage. If the Killer then decides to attack the Vampires then the Vamps will go down.
You can easily check that by allowing the Vampires to drain Life from the Ghost Dragons and Wraiths who are Killers. It won't be much use, because the Wraiths and Dragons do need only one hit to severely reduce or kill the Vamps. If they were Killers as well they should be able to hold themselves against them, so that both would be attritioned down, but that's not the case.
The Life Stealing in combination makes the Armored classification, but that has nothing to do with the rest.
The main treat for being a KILLER (and there light, normal or heavy) is the ability to KILL. The main treat for being a HUNTER is the ability to ENGAGE and HARRESS, i.e., you don't need to kill the unit as fast as possible, it's enough when you can engage them.
That's why the Vampires are excellent Hunters, but even there no Heavies because they can be killed by a killer, but they are only light Killers because they miss the attack and damage power. In a real fight, since Vampires are a no-retal unit: the unit the Vampires attack will NOT be the unit that attacks the Vampires. Instead there will come a killer. In turn, if the Vamps attack a killer, they won't do much damage. If the Killer then decides to attack the Vampires then the Vamps will go down.
You can easily check that by allowing the Vampires to drain Life from the Ghost Dragons and Wraiths who are Killers. It won't be much use, because the Wraiths and Dragons do need only one hit to severely reduce or kill the Vamps. If they were Killers as well they should be able to hold themselves against them, so that both would be attritioned down, but that's not the case.
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Jolly Joker
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@ Banedon
Since you are already steering at the Dungeon:
First and foremost, the Furies would be Light Killers, not medium Hunters (which is basically the same), but when you rate them as medium hunters, you'd deny them the anility to kill (medium) Hunters - which they have, and definitely. That means, yes, Furies can kill Vampires
Hydras are nothing special at all.
They are Heavy Hunter-Killers, but have the ability due to the Hero's Light Assault function to teleport. (note that this makes them so awkward to handle for Dungeon without teleport support: Dungeon has no units you would like to hunt - except the Furies.
When they are used to kill neutrals they are used in their ability as Hunter-Killers, while the Hero acts as Heavy Killer with Destruction magic OR as Light Assault unit. In effect they are guarding THE HERO (because when the last one dies the hero dies as well).
Attrition has been defined as either adding to the defense (primary) or quantity (Summoning) of their own and harrassment of opposition (Dark Magic) This combination I define as attrition.
I define the Warlock's traits in primary spell power and attack plus Destruction and Summoning as Heavy Killer (spell power and Destructive) plus Light Assault (second primary Attack and Summoning)
That's why the assault traits like Tactics and Teleport Assault work so well.
Since you are already steering at the Dungeon:
First and foremost, the Furies would be Light Killers, not medium Hunters (which is basically the same), but when you rate them as medium hunters, you'd deny them the anility to kill (medium) Hunters - which they have, and definitely. That means, yes, Furies can kill Vampires
Hydras are nothing special at all.
They are Heavy Hunter-Killers, but have the ability due to the Hero's Light Assault function to teleport. (note that this makes them so awkward to handle for Dungeon without teleport support: Dungeon has no units you would like to hunt - except the Furies.
When they are used to kill neutrals they are used in their ability as Hunter-Killers, while the Hero acts as Heavy Killer with Destruction magic OR as Light Assault unit. In effect they are guarding THE HERO (because when the last one dies the hero dies as well).
Attrition has been defined as either adding to the defense (primary) or quantity (Summoning) of their own and harrassment of opposition (Dark Magic) This combination I define as attrition.
I define the Warlock's traits in primary spell power and attack plus Destruction and Summoning as Heavy Killer (spell power and Destructive) plus Light Assault (second primary Attack and Summoning)
That's why the assault traits like Tactics and Teleport Assault work so well.
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