I am (finally) getting started with Heroes V

[DaemianLucifer]

Good call Mytical! . But then again, I can't stand to watch two people go on and on and on about the same subject (with almost no variation in the argument; which is why I've been trying to stop it ).

Spoil my fun,will you?

@Misty
Dungeon has the strongest creatures in respective tiers(not counting FoH),so it had to be compensated by smaller growth and higher prices.Imagine an army of 200 furries They are a pretty interesting faction to play because they dont feet the old just plung into them cliche.To be honest,all the factions have been rebalanced in order to escape this one,but dungeon succeeded here the most.

[Banedon]

@Mytical - It's not that I'm not reading your posts, just that I mostly agree with it. If you want to step out though sure, go ahead.

@PhoenixReborn - How did you hold both castles and how do you know I need more experience with Inferno?

Sure,you wouldnt want to kill the stack that deals ~200 damage to you every turn,with an initiative of 16

I'd much rather kill the stack that deals ~400 damage. Of course if you offered me all the heads of your Blood Furies on a platter I'd take it, but otherwise I'd certainly go for your other stacks.

Now these are without anyone else actually in range,just furries.The same case that your paladins find themselves in.

We must assume that the Grim Raiders and Black Dragons are within range as well. Why shouldn't they be? Are you hanging back when you said you would be taking the offense?

But dungeon will never go pure offense nor pure defense.It will start an offense with raiders and dragons,supported by the rest(especially furries),then wait for you to attack back,all the while hero is firing spells.And you dont care about those 100+ assassins poisoning all your units?Unless you are a necro,that one is a big threat as well.Besides,I said its as close to the perfect balance as possible,not that it is perfectly balanced.

If Dungeon goes on the offense with Raiders and Dragons, why are the Blood Furies the only creatures that can be targetted in the above example? And yes, I don't care about those 100+ Assassins that are poisoning all the units. Their damage is insignificant compared to your other stacks'.

And Im telling you again:My original comment was that your paladins will receive the full furry of your enemy.I never said that you wont kill of their units with your other forces.But you were the one that said that after the dive the griffins will be there to share the pain.I told you that they wont.

Your original statement was that the Paladins are unsuported. You even stressed that there's a difference between 'unsupported' and 'unprotected'. I looked through the past six pages looking for me saying Imperial Griffins 'share the pain' as well and I can't find it. Where is it?

I never said they dont.But you said that they share the pain,not me.

I take comfort that one of my original three objectives has been achieved: you have learnt something out of this debate. You were the one originally saying that Imperial Griffins would be targetted because the units that hit them cannot reach the Paladins, not me.

Tell me,when does warlock not use IM?And why does it force me to give up MS?It will still be just one creature thats protected.Plus because its hunters,Id probably use (chain) lightning,ice bolt or circle of winter rather than MS,because of their stun not their damage.And the stun is always there,no matter if you ressist the damage or not.Thats the beauty of IM.

Warlock would always have Irresistable Magic. Of course they would. And if you're using Chain Lightning, Ice Bolt or Circle of Winter you would have given up Meteor Shower. You see?

So if you are lucky that your cerberi get in front of me,and if you are lucky that there are some obstacles in front of the furries I may not reach your units?I admit that the game rellies to much on luck,but saying that its a fact that you can incapacitate my furries with just cerberi is wrong.Plus,what gives you the idea that raiders and dragons will be in front of furries?Why would I clutter their path?

1. Alone the Cerberi cannot incapacitate your Blood Furies. That's because the Blood Furies are not alone, either. I can't clearly remember my original assertion, but I recall that it was relatively early in the game when you need your Blood Furies to do killing.
2. Your Grim Raiders and Black Dragons will be blocking your Blood Furies not because they are in directly in front of them. You would have to clutter their path because if you do not you will not be able to hit my units. This would be much easier explained if I had a screenshot available, which I don't.

Because you said youll incapacitate my furries imidiatelly.Thats not imidiatelly now,isnt it?

Where did you see me use the word 'immediately'? And why would I want to incapacitate your Blood Furies when the immediate targets are the Black Dragons and Grim Raiders? Remember, this originally came into debate because I was attempting to show you that Blood Furies need manipulation, not because I think they are dangerous.

It does happen.A good way to give a chance of winning to someone who is weaker then you is to let him have the benefit of the castle.The fact that you never did it,or the fact that I never did it doesnt mean that no one does it.

It does not happen. Just because you play handicapped games doesn't mean that the standard game mode for discussion are these very handicapped games, and besides if you're playing handicapped games you do not need any special strategies to defeat your opponent (your opponent, like you before this debate, would place the Pit Lords and Succubi Mistresses on opposite sides of the battlefield, for instance). Seige battles do not happen unless you attack a lightly-defended castle or it is a battle by prearrangement.

Yes they do.So?Even if you TA them they will probably be the only survivors at the end,yet you cannot call the useless fodder in that case,cant you?

So they are not slow killers, which you said they are.

40 furries was not my assumption,it was an example of a small strike force I used with aaeglr in a campaign map.If you have only 40 furries in week 5 you do deserve to lose.Big time.

How many Blood Furies do you have then in week 5? 50? I bet against that killing one level 7 unit with every action as well.

So yes,with luck trigering every second turn,your 50 furries indeed do kill a level 7 creature every turn,if he has defense.If not,even more.

I'll be testing this in-game later. And, you seem to lucky enough to be scoring good luck every second turn.

Wrong analogy.The griffin support in this case would be if someone gave you a bike.Youd still have to cary all the load yourself,youd still have to strain your legs,the difference is that youll reach your goal faster.

We should get some things clear:

1. You - the person walking to Paris - are the Paladins.
2. The bag you carry is the enemies you face.
3. The someone who gives your bag a lift are the Imperial Griffins. Removing some of the baggage means they are killing some of the enemies.

But big difference between the two analogies. If the analogy proves its point it is over. The Paladins are supported. Unless you dispute this, do not quote this reply.

Ok,GC is one person that did it and posted it,PhoenixReborn is another.There you go,two people(besides me),that did it.Or do you think that they cannot believe it because I somehow bribed them and want another oppinion

I highly doubt they did it the way you claim to have done. That's why I want to know more about how they did it.

Now lets see:When did I define finesse like that?Oh right,I never did.It was you who defined it like that.So what if MGs will do the killing?Compared to other level ones,they arent killers.

You specifically said that Paladins requre just as much manipulation as Blood Furies, so if I classify Blood Furies as finesse then I should classify Paladins as finesse as well. So unless you are challenging the original definition of finesse, unless you think that 'finesse' essentially means 'killing with something other than physical attacks and spells' (when the Assassins are the only creature I can think of right now that fits this criterion) I have no idea what you're talking about.

As for Master Gremlins, your classification is still self-contradictory. Let's compare Master Gremlins against Sprites, a unit you certainly think is a killer. Now Sprites kill early-game. Master Gremlins kill early-game. Sprites do not kill late-game. Master Gremlins don't kill late-game as well. So what's the big deal? Sprites remain killers for longer; Master Gremlins are ranged and so they will have uses Sprites cannot wield.

Oh, and I'm learning my lesson and posing two questions:

1. Define 'killer'.
2. Define 'finesse'.

Again I have to correct you:"dont play" is not the same as "dont have".I never uninstalled it.I can still start it whenevr I want.The reason I wont is because I had enough frustration with it.

I know you have Heroes 5 installed. I was drawing a comparison with IanBoyd. You claim to know so much about the map and you even poured cold water on the method I used to win it. You are essentially like him - you are giving advice when you have never tried (= not having the game). You can say you are frustrated, but that doesn't mean you can give advice. If you know you don't know enough about the map, don't even write anything about it in the first place.

Yes they are supported,but they still receive the full furry of your enemy,which was my original argument,which you still avoid to disprove.

Your original post is:

Your paladins wont get to act if you let them wait.Besides,no matter how much you wait,paladins are always going to be alone in enemys camp.Whos going to support them?Squires?Griffins?Peasants?Only angels have enough speed and power to go in quick melee with paladins,but theyll be bussy as well when they do.

You also said:

You were the one saying that I wont cast spells on them,thus protecting them with spells.I was sayig that they wont always be supported by other melee units.Supported and protected are different in my book.

I was the one who said the Paladins will be unaffected by the Imperial Griffin's presence, not you. You're taking my ideas and turning them out as your own - plagiarizing.

So lets see:I can charge to receive one and a half to two full damages from your ranged units(because I have to clear the guardians first),or I can choose to wait(maybe even defend)until fodder arives and receive two halfs of your full ranged damage.What will I choose,I wonder?

The second. But after your Gated creatures arrive you will still have to charge and you will still take the shots at full damage.

Read it in the dictionary

I know the dictionary meaning. So what?

Simple:They protect your back ranks from chargers,or they can be plunged in enemy ranks to deal massive damage if you TA them.They are more close to support than fodder anyway you look at it.

Define: support.

thus killing 2-3 paladins,not 1-2.with luck its 4-6,which is what I said initially,wasnt it?Whats that?Oh you didnt have battle frenzy?Yet you are talking to me about not playing the game well?

I didn't know you learned Frenzy. And you don't have 90 Blood Furies; you have much less than that (it's week 5).

So you are saying that if you fight druids,hunters,marksmen,mages,etc you are going to loose no hunters?And what if all the stacks get to go before your hunters?The game relies a lot on luck,no question about it.But are we to asume that luck will always be against us?

You lose creatures with Blood Furies as well. And while you probably can't avoid losses, you will lose a lot less than you would with Blood Furies.

No, we do not assume that luck is always against you. But if luck goes against you even once you will be losing Blood Furies.

How much planing do you need with druids? A lot.A lot more than with any non caster units.

Explain. Simple matter of point-and-click.

[winterfate]

Spoil my fun,will you?

DL: I don't think it's possible to spoil your fun .

Banedon: While I DO realize that this question was aimed at DL, let me get a crack at it:

1. Define killer - I would define it as a strong unit (or perhaps weak unit, hard to aim at) that can deal out strong amounts of damage in one blow (or several lesser, but quicker blows).

2. Define finesse - A unit, usually support, that fulfills one or more of these purposes:

a. Deal damage
b. Draw enemy fire
c. Prevent damage (squire's shield allies)
d. Any other support abilities you can think of.

Hence, why I believe (and I've mentioned this several times already ) there should be a finesse-killer category.

This is how I define it:

Finesse-Killer - A support unit, not as strong as a killer, but stronger than a finesse unit, that uses (and I emphasize this next part) battle tactics to overpower their foes. What I mean by this is that (and I'll take grim Raiders as my example) when you have the finesse-killer, you draw retaliation with the killer (or resilient cannon fodder) and then you attack with the F-Killer.

Just my two cents...carry on.

[Mightor Magic]

Dungeon has the strongest creatures in respective tiers(not counting FoH),so it had to be compensated by smaller growth and higher prices.Imagine an army of 200 furries They are a pretty interesting faction to play because they dont feet the old just plung into them cliche.To be honest,all the factions have been rebalanced in order to escape this one,but dungeon succeeded here the most.

Dungeon is my least favorite. Every hero, every tactic seems to be built around Destructive magic, Luck and Attack. And an army with 200 Blood Furies? I'm not impressed. Any group of Furies for me goes through three steps in any real battle: Attack, Attack, Dead. And don't even get me started on sieges with Dungeon.

But since Academy is my favorite faction {with the real strongest units in the game when properly equipped and Heroes that work with any Magic or Attack abilites}, I'm not the best person to debate this.

[Kilop]

Furries = dead meat as soon as they represent a larger threat anyway. But to you who still believe DL is seriously arguing, and not just for the sake of it, hear my advice :


Flee you fools



Still not here

[Banedon]

winterfate -

I think your definition of finesse is flawed. If the finesse creature draws enemy fire, it should be 'cannon fodder' while if it supports allies, it should be 'supporter'. The other two I agree with. The finesse creature should be able to deal considerable damage, but one criterion I think you missed out on is they are generally incapable of absorbing it.

Your finesse-killer definition seems oddly similar to my finesse definition (which I've not posted, before DaemianLucifer says anything).

[winterfate]

but one criterion I think you missed out on is they are generally incapable of absorbing it.

Banedon: Good point (guess I did leave that out didn't I?). I guess we agree to agree (if only all arguments were this simple ).

[Banedon]

Now that you've returned and are posting (but appear to be avoiding this topic) DaemianLucifer, allow me to ask: Permission to claim victory? If yes, I will continue with what this topic was originally meant to be.

[DaemianLucifer]

A chalenge?Sorry winterfate,I guess your wish wont come true.Dont worry Banedon,Ill rewrite the whole response to you during this day,after I get some sleep

[PhoenixReborn]

@PhoenixReborn - How did you hold both castles and how do you know I need more experience with Inferno?

I just defended with shadya and later with Lethos when I bought him in the tavern. Not really a big surprise I think.

Once raelag got going conquering enemy castles the mission was over.

I probably shouldn't have said the thing about Inferno, I'm not sure what I was referring to.

[DaemianLucifer]

I just defended with shadya and later with Lethos when I bought him in the tavern. Not really a big surprise I think.

See Banedon?I told you that you should put shadya in defense,not aaeglr.

Now,lets see if I can remember what I was typing before interupted.

I'd much rather kill the stack that deals ~400 damage. Of course if you offered me all the heads of your Blood Furies on a platter I'd take it, but otherwise I'd certainly go for your other stacks.

Ugh,what was I arguing here?Ah,yes,the balance of dungeon.The beauty of this town is that most stacks will be just as dangerous.Thus if you eliminate the 400 damage dealing raiders,youll get at least one more 200 damage from furries.Yet if you try to eliminate them,theyll combo with the lizards and deal you the 400.

We must assume that the Grim Raiders and Black Dragons are within range as well. Why shouldn't they be? Are you hanging back when you said you would be taking the offense?

Because this argument started by me saying that paladins will die as quickly as furries because while furries stay out of range and lizards and probably dragons are in melee,paladins are alone in melee with other troops supporting from the back.

If Dungeon goes on the offense with Raiders and Dragons, why are the Blood Furies the only creatures that can be targetted in the above example? And yes, I don't care about those 100+ Assassins that are poisoning all the units. Their damage is insignificant compared to your other stacks'.

I take comfort that one of my original three objectives has been achieved: you have learnt something out of this debate. You were the one originally saying that Imperial Griffins would be targetted because the units that hit them cannot reach the Paladins, not me.

Say what?My original statement was "And wholl be there in front with them?Angels?Griffins?",to which you said that after the dive,griffins will plunge in.My comment about units not reaching the paladins was that even if griffins do plunge in,they will be targeted by units that wouldnt target the paladins in the first place anyway.

Warlock would always have Irresistable Magic. Of course they would. And if you're using Chain Lightning, Ice Bolt or Circle of Winter you would have given up Meteor Shower. You see?

Say what?If I am using chain lighting,ice bolt or circle of winter that doesnt mean Ive given up MS,that means that those spells are far better in a given situation.Its not like MS is the ultimate spell that you have to use at every opportunity so that using any other spell would be giving up on the MS.

2. Your Grim Raiders and Black Dragons will be blocking your Blood Furies not because they are in directly in front of them. You would have to clutter their path because if you do not you will not be able to hit my units. This would be much easier explained if I had a screenshot available, which I don't.

Yes,well rarelly was I in situation that those two clutter the furries path.You can usually leave at least one spot between them.Depending,of course,who your facing.You arent going to leave a single spot that can be filled with imps so that dragons kill your lizards,of course.

It does not happen. Just because you play handicapped games doesn't mean that the standard game mode for discussion are these very handicapped games, and besides if you're playing handicapped games you do not need any special strategies to defeat your opponent (your opponent, like you before this debate, would place the Pit Lords and Succubi Mistresses on opposite sides of the battlefield, for instance). Seige battles do not happen unless you attack a lightly-defended castle or it is a battle by prearrangement.

So,let me get this straight,when you use such an example(sacrifising your whole army for furries)its just so you could prove a point,even though such a situation will never happen.Not even against the AI.Yet I am not allowed to do that?So much about your credibility.

So they are not slow killers, which you said they are.

Yes they are.They have a fine attack,and massive damage,and can decimate whole armies.But they are slow,thus cannot be classified as pure killers.Properly placed and/or boosted,hwoever,they do play a major role.

How many Blood Furies do you have then in week 5? 50? I bet against that killing one level 7 unit with every action as well.

I already gave you the math.Check it if you will.You wont kill a level 7 every action,true,but you will kill 2 level 7s every 2 actions.

I'll be testing this in-game later. And, you seem to lucky enough to be scoring good luck every second turn.

Why?5 luck is not that hard to have.

We should get some things clear:

1. You - the person walking to Paris - are the Paladins.
2. The bag you carry is the enemies you face.
3. The someone who gives your bag a lift are the Imperial Griffins. Removing some of the baggage means they are killing some of the enemies.

Wrong.The bag you cary is the enemy you face,but the damage it does to you before it dies is the amount of time it takes you to reach paris.The quicker you reach paris,the less damage you take.If someone(griffins)takes part of the weight,you both will still receive the same damage,but it will be evenly distributed between the two of you.Thats what griffins would achieve if they were in the front line with paladins.However,if someone gave you a bike,youd reach paris sooner,thus receive less damage,and thats what ranged supporters do,by killing off the enemy.

But big difference between the two analogies. If the analogy proves its point it is over. The Paladins are supported. Unless you dispute this, do not quote this reply.

The paladins are supported,but they still receive the full damage and no one but them does.

1. Define 'killer'.
2. Define 'finesse'.

Damn,I forgot what I wrote here.I think it was basically:Killer is a unit that deals massive damage compared with other units of the same tier.If a unit can deal massive damage to a unit of higher tier(considering the cost and growth,of course)due to either its high attack or damage,due to its high initiative,or due to its special,it is a killer.

A finesse unit is a unit whose abilities require lots of preplaning and manipulation to work at its best.

Now,pladins can be classified as both killers and finesse.If stationary,paladins arent that much better that the rest.They have the third best attack,and share the 4th place in damage.Not really impressive.However,when they charge they do 40% additional damag,and that does put them in front of all other level 6 creatures in damage output.

There really arent that many pure killers in the game.Hunters and dragons are among those few.The rest can be counted as both,and mostly depend on the situation if they are going to be killers or finesse units.

I know you have Heroes 5 installed. I was drawing a comparison with IanBoyd. You claim to know so much about the map and you even poured cold water on the method I used to win it. You are essentially like him - you are giving advice when you have never tried (= not having the game). You can say you are frustrated, but that doesn't mean you can give advice. If you know you don't know enough about the map, don't even write anything about it in the first place.

PhoenixReborn gave you the same advice as me,use shadya as the main defender.So,its not a completelly useless advice,now isnt it?

The second. But after your Gated creatures arrive you will still have to charge and you will still take the shots at full damage.

No I wont,because I will use the fodder to make a path to your ranged units,or to block them if possible,thus when I charge,I will charge your blocked ranged units.

Define: support.

A unit that stays in the back and protects the ranged units,like fodder.Unlike fodder,supporters arent there to just receive damage,but to eradicate enemies melee units when they enter their range.

I didn't know you learned Frenzy. And you don't have 90 Blood Furies; you have much less than that (it's week 5).

You were the one that said 90 furries,not me.50-60 is the number Id say is what youd have at week 5.Plus,I did tell you in the very begining that frenzy and attack are extremelly important for utilizing furries to the fullest.

You lose creatures with Blood Furies as well. And while you probably can't avoid losses, you will lose a lot less than you would with Blood Furies.

No, we do not assume that luck is always against you. But if luck goes against you even once you will be losing Blood Furies.

If luck goes against you you will use any unit you use to attack.If luck goes against you,you may even loose paladins against neutrals.But thats not what Id asume will happen.

Explain. Simple matter of point-and-click.

No,you need to divide them as much as possible to utilise them to the fullest.You need to micromanage the number in each of those stacks every time you buy new druids.Thats not simple point and click.

[Gaidal Cain]

Explain. Simple matter of point-and-click.

No,you need to divide them as much as possible to utilise them to the fullest.You need to micromanage the number in each of those stacks every time you buy new druids.Thats not simple point and click.

A bit of a side-track, but it's actually even worse than that: three stacks of four druids do more damage than four stacks of three.

[Shauku]

Yes, continuing on the sidetrack, the exact number of 4 Druids has "good" spellpower, so divide Druids into stacks of 4 if possible (their growth is 4 so its easy to remember) They do the same damage as 2 stacks of 2 Druids, so it's pointless to divide them thatway (unless in need for multiple Endurances)

It is not the end of the world if you divide them otherwise...as some people seem to feel The key is just to divide whenever possible but aiming for number 4, if unable to use single Druids.

[Banedon]

See Banedon?I told you that you should put shadya in defense,not aaeglr.

PhoenixReborn please elaborate. Did you put them both in a castle, or did you move Shadya to and fro? How did you avoid dying to the enemy Warlock's high spell power and damage? By the time you can recruit Lethos too the map would have been essentially won.

This point is out of the context. I want only to focus on the real issue under debate.

Ugh,what was I arguing here?Ah,yes,the balance of dungeon.The beauty of this town is that most stacks will be just as dangerous.Thus if you eliminate the 400 damage dealing raiders,youll get at least one more 200 damage from furries.Yet if you try to eliminate them,theyll combo with the lizards and deal you the 400.

Obviously the Grim Raiders would be dealing rather more than 400 damage. Grim Raiders deal a lot more damage than Blood Furies and are therefore targetted first.

Because this argument started by me saying that paladins will die as quickly as furries because while furries stay out of range and lizards and probably dragons are in melee,paladins are alone in melee with other troops supporting from the back.

Your chain of thought is entirely right, but for one thing. I also said that Blood Furies die not because they're out of range but because they're not targetted. I brought this into perspective by magically transporting your Blood Furies into the middle of the battlefield such that they are within range of everyone but with the Grim Raiders and Black Dragons still in melee. Now they're within range but they still won't be targetted. How do you explain that?

Say what?My original statement was "And wholl be there in front with them?Angels?Griffins?",to which you said that after the dive,griffins will plunge in.My comment about units not reaching the paladins was that even if griffins do plunge in,they will be targeted by units that wouldnt target the paladins in the first place anyway.

I successfully argued against your comment because the units that want to target the Paladins will be able to target the Paladins regardless of where the Griffins land. You have not refuted this point; you have only agreed to it.

You left the quote above unresponded, too.

Say what?If I am using chain lighting,ice bolt or circle of winter that doesnt mean Ive given up MS,that means that those spells are far better in a given situation.Its not like MS is the ultimate spell that you have to use at every opportunity so that using any other spell would be giving up on the MS.

You are giving up Meteor Shower because you are not casting it. Let's not say that Chain Lightning, Ice Bolt or Circle of Winter are actually better than Meteor Shower. Let's just say that Meteor Shower is a very dangerous spell such that if you're not casting it your opponent breathes a sigh of relief.

Remember, we got into this sidetrack because I mentioned Magical Immunity as a counter. By casting it I've forced you to give up on Meteor Shower and use the less effective Chain Lightning. Does that satisfy you?

Yes,well rarelly was I in situation that those two clutter the furries path.You can usually leave at least one spot between them.Depending,of course,who your facing.You arent going to leave a single spot that can be filled with imps so that dragons kill your lizards,of course.

Out of context. The original assertion is that once the Cerberi gets in front of the Blood Furies, natural obstacles + the Cerberi + Grim Raiders and Black Dragons will impede your Blood Fury's paths. Do you argue against that?

So,let me get this straight,when you use such an example(sacrifising your whole army for furries)its just so you could prove a point,even though such a situation will never happen.Not even against the AI.Yet I am not allowed to do that?So much about your credibility.

Yes. I used a ridiculous example to prove the point that Blood Furies stay alive because they are not targetted, not because they have some godly defensive abilities. What did your ridiculous example prove? That your opponent is a ridiculous player?

Yes they are.They have a fine attack,and massive damage,and can decimate whole armies.But they are slow,thus cannot be classified as pure killers.Properly placed and/or boosted,hwoever,they do play a major role.

They are slow but you're accelerating them with Teleporting Assault.

This is out of context and I will not pursue this point further.

I already gave you the math.Check it if you will.You wont kill a level 7 every action,true,but you will kill 2 level 7s every 2 actions.

Nothing beats in-game testing.

90 Blood Furies attack 7 Archangels. Blood Furies led by Eruina, 7 attack / 6 defense. Archangels led by Irina, 9 attack / 9 defense. Blood Furies deal grand total of 172-241 damage, or 0-1 Archangels killed. How much will 50 Blood Furies do then?

Why?5 luck is not that hard to have.

Unless you're learning Attack, Battle Frenzy, Tactics, Destructive Magic, Irresistable Magic, etc.

Wrong.The bag you cary is the enemy you face,but the damage it does to you before it dies is the amount of time it takes you to reach paris.The quicker you reach paris,the less damage you take.If someone(griffins)takes part of the weight,you both will still receive the same damage,but it will be evenly distributed between the two of you.Thats what griffins would achieve if they were in the front line with paladins.However,if someone gave you a bike,youd reach paris sooner,thus receive less damage,and thats what ranged supporters do,by killing off the enemy.

I gave the analogy and so I know what I meant. Out of context. I will not pursue this any further.

The paladins are supported,but they still receive the full damage and no one but them does.

Proves my point. Paladins die just as fast (should be faster) as Blood Furies because they are dangerous killers and are targetted first. Blood Furies are not targetted. Thus they stay alive.

PhoenixReborn gave you the same advice as me,use shadya as the main defender.So,its not a completelly useless advice,now isnt it?

I don't want to pursue this point - it'll just lead to more arguments, and I'm mentally drained and emotionally exhausted.

No I wont,because I will use the fodder to make a path to your ranged units,or to block them if possible,thus when I charge,I will charge your blocked ranged units.

"Sylvan player incompetent" are the first words into my mind. Tell me, how do you expect to be able to destroy (blocking the Master Hunters and Druid Elders = unstoppable advantage) a full-fledged Sylvan army with half your creatures? You are not going to be able to block the Master Hunters and Druid Elders for long, if at all.

You were the one that said 90 furries,not me.50-60 is the number Id say is what youd have at week 5.Plus,I did tell you in the very begining that frenzy and attack are extremelly important for utilizing furries to the fullest.

And your 50-60 Blood Furies kill 2 Archangels every two turns. And you not only have Frenzy and Attack, you have Expert Luck and Warlock's Luck. Just how high level do you think you are?

If luck goes against you you will use any unit you use to attack.If luck goes against you,you may even loose paladins against neutrals.But thats not what Id asume will happen.

It is totally ridiculous to lose Paladins to neutrals. I challenge you to name even one situation where this is possible in a real game. If you say 'like fighting the Spectral Dragons in C4M5' then I'll say that's a campaign. This is a real game. Name me a situation where it is possible to lose Paladins to neutrals.

On the other hand, it is entirely feasible to lose Blood Furies to neutrals. If luck goes against you some Blood Furies will die. How do you refute that?

No,you need to divide them as much as possible to utilise them to the fullest.You need to micromanage the number in each of those stacks every time you buy new druids.Thats not simple point and click.

That's outside the battle, not within it. Within it Druid Elders do not take much thought.

@Your definition of Killers: Paladins are out-and-out killers, there's no doubt about that. You saying 'if stationary, paladins aren't much better than the rest' is similar to saying 'if 200 Wraiths use Harm Touch on 10 Peasants, they kill only one Peasant. Hence they are fodder'. Paladins will not be stationary unless bound by Treants (or something similar).

Under your definition Blood Furies still fall under finesse to me, but I will not debate this here.

@Your definition of Supporters: I can't understand. If you have a powerful creature that can 'eradicate enemies melee units' then surely you have a powerful creature that fulfils the role of the 'killer'. Right?

***********

This quote I totally agree with. Thanks be that I see someone who agrees with me.

Furries = dead meat as soon as they represent a larger threat anyway. But to you who still believe DL is seriously arguing, and not just for the sake of it, hear my advice :


Flee you fools



Still not here

[winterfate]

It is as DL says though. He said that (and I quote):

A chalenge?Sorry winterfate,I guess your wish wont come true.Dont worry Banedon,Ill rewrite the whole response to you during this day,after I get some sleep

I was wishing this argument wouldn't revive.

Oh well...

And, btw, Blood Furies die horrendously quickly (they are effective otherwise, IF you get a Warlock with Expert Light and IF you get Resurrection...two nasty IF's I haven't actually realized yet).

So, I agree with Kilop's quote too .

[DaemianLucifer]

Your chain of thought is entirely right, but for one thing. I also said that Blood Furies die not because they're out of range but because they're not targetted. I brought this into perspective by magically transporting your Blood Furies into the middle of the battlefield such that they are within range of everyone but with the Grim Raiders and Black Dragons still in melee. Now they're within range but they still won't be targetted. How do you explain that?

Because they are there with dragons and riders.If your paladins had griffins and angels next to them,they wouldnt be pounded so hard either.

I successfully argued against your comment because the units that want to target the Paladins will be able to target the Paladins regardless of where the Griffins land. You have not refuted this point; you have only agreed to it.

Not true.They can prevent rakshasas,hydras,pit lords,wraiths and treants from reaching the paladins,if they land in the right place.

As for the missed answer to your quote,its somewhere in the begining,when I asked wholl be there next to paladins,you said griffins will plunge in after they dive.

You are giving up Meteor Shower because you are not casting it. Let's not say that Chain Lightning, Ice Bolt or Circle of Winter are actually better than Meteor Shower. Let's just say that Meteor Shower is a very dangerous spell such that if you're not casting it your opponent breathes a sigh of relief.

Remember, we got into this sidetrack because I mentioned Magical Immunity as a counter. By casting it I've forced you to give up on Meteor Shower and use the less effective Chain Lightning. Does that satisfy you?

No,because thats not true.It can be far worse if your hunters dont get to act at all because of lightning bolts,then if you loose sprites with them because of MS.Its very situation dependant.Saying that MS is always better is plain wrong.

Out of context. The original assertion is that once the Cerberi gets in front of the Blood Furies, natural obstacles + the Cerberi + Grim Raiders and Black Dragons will impede your Blood Fury's paths. Do you argue against that?

Yes,because if the obstacle will be there to stop me,it will stop your cerberi from blocking me as well,thus Ill still be blocked only by the obstacle.And raiders and dragons wont block you if you place them well,which will be the case most of the time.Only very rare are you forced to block your furries with those.

Yes. I used a ridiculous example to prove the point that Blood Furies stay alive because they are not targetted, not because they have some godly defensive abilities. What did your ridiculous example prove? That your opponent is a ridiculous player?

Sure,whatever you say

I dont remember now,but it was something about support,I think.Look it up if you want to argue on it.If not,then drop it.

Nothing beats in-game testing.

90 Blood Furies attack 7 Archangels. Blood Furies led by Eruina, 7 attack / 6 defense. Archangels led by Irina, 9 attack / 9 defense. Blood Furies deal grand total of 172-241 damage, or 0-1 Archangels killed. How much will 50 Blood Furies do then?

Yes,and you had no frenzy and no luck I guess?Even with expert defense,you still can kill 2 angels in 2 turns with 50-60 furries.

Unless you're learning Attack, Battle Frenzy, Tactics, Destructive Magic, Irresistable Magic, etc.

You need level 15-20 in order to have warlocks luck,frenzy,tactics,expert destruction,expert luck,expert attack and empowered spells and one of the masters of storms or ice.If you get lucky,you may also pump sorcery as well.

I gave the analogy and so I know what I meant. Out of context. I will not pursue this any further.

A false analogy,like I showed.

Proves my point. Paladins die just as fast (should be faster) as Blood Furies because they are dangerous killers and are targetted first. Blood Furies are not targetted. Thus they stay alive.

Because paladins are the only one in the enemy lines,and furries arent.

"Sylvan player incompetent" are the first words into my mind. Tell me, how do you expect to be able to destroy (blocking the Master Hunters and Druid Elders = unstoppable advantage) a full-fledged Sylvan army with half your creatures? You are not going to be able to block the Master Hunters and Druid Elders for long, if at all.

Kill the sprites then throw the imps in there is one way.Besides,you dont need to block them forever.Even if you block hunters for a single turn,you eliminate a big threat.

And your 50-60 Blood Furies kill 2 Archangels every two turns. And you not only have Frenzy and Attack, you have Expert Luck and Warlock's Luck. Just how high level do you think you are?

Between 15 and 20.

It is totally ridiculous to lose Paladins to neutrals. I challenge you to name even one situation where this is possible in a real game. If you say 'like fighting the Spectral Dragons in C4M5' then I'll say that's a campaign. This is a real game. Name me a situation where it is possible to lose Paladins to neutrals.

All the hunters get to act furst,there goes a paladin.Its very ulikely to happen,but if luck goes against you it can happen.

@Your definition of Killers: Paladins are out-and-out killers, there's no doubt about that. You saying 'if stationary, paladins aren't much better than the rest' is similar to saying 'if 200 Wraiths use Harm Touch on 10 Peasants, they kill only one Peasant. Hence they are fodder'. Paladins will not be stationary unless bound by Treants (or something similar).

True,paladins wont be stationary,but they need to be manouvered a lot as to become killers.Unlike,for example,dragons that can remain at the same spot and pound on the same enemy until it dies.

@Your definition of Supporters: I can't understand. If you have a powerful creature that can 'eradicate enemies melee units' then surely you have a powerful creature that fulfils the role of the 'killer'. Right?

So,you do admit that hydras are killers?

[Banedon]

Because they are there with dragons and riders.If your paladins had griffins and angels next to them,they wouldnt be pounded so hard either.

Griffins won't change anything. Archangels would. But then what's the point? It just goes to show that the Blood Furies aren't targetted even though the opportunity for targetting them is there. Why? Give me a good reason. Why?

Not true.They can prevent rakshasas,hydras,pit lords,wraiths and treants from reaching the paladins,if they land in the right place.

It never happens, unfortunately, against a good player.

No,because thats not true.It can be far worse if your hunters dont get to act at all because of lightning bolts,then if you loose sprites with them because of MS.Its very situation dependant.Saying that MS is always better is plain wrong.

You cannot immobilize a stack permanently with Lightning Bolt. They will move in the end. Meteor Shower is generally a more destructive spell than Chain Lightning, dealing more damage (especially since Sylvan needs to bunch up to protect their shooters).

Yes,because if the obstacle will be there to stop me,it will stop your cerberi from blocking me as well,thus Ill still be blocked only by the obstacle.And raiders and dragons wont block you if you place them well,which will be the case most of the time.Only very rare are you forced to block your furries with those.

Or it may block your Blood Furies from hitting anything other than the Cerberi at first, later reduced to nothing after the Cerberi get in front of them. Grim Raiders and Black Dragons won't block you completely, but they may force you to take a few more diagonals. Added up, it could result in a blockade.

I dont remember now,but it was something about support,I think.Look it up if you want to argue on it.If not,then drop it.

Your ridiculous example involved your opponent splitting his / her army onto two sides such that it became possible that the Imperial Griffins block the way to the Paladins.

Yes,and you had no frenzy and no luck I guess?Even with expert defense,you still can kill 2 angels in 2 turns with 50-60 furries.

I don't know. I used Duel Mode and I can't use the editor (someway or the other it refuses to work). I highly doubt you can kill 2 Angels in 2 turns with 50 Blood Furies. Take the above damage and divide by half (approximately). Two hits now guarantee you only one Archangel kill. That's even if one of your two hits was lucky.

You need level 15-20 in order to have warlocks luck,frenzy,tactics,expert destruction,expert luck,expert attack and empowered spells and one of the masters of storms or ice.If you get lucky,you may also pump sorcery as well.

And yet when you argue here you assume you have everything. Your Warlock has Tactics to counter Ranged units. He also has Frenzy to kill 2 Archangels in 2 turns. Master of Storms to stun the Master Hunters, Expert Luck for +5 Luck, Expert Destruction to toss Meteor Shower and Irresistable Magic to pierce Magical Immunity. Explain.

Because paladins are the only one in the enemy lines,and furries arent.

I thought you agreed that the Imperial Griffins at the least should be in the enemy lines. And don't forget, if Blood Furies were somehow within range of the entire enemy force they would still stay mostly unmolested.

Kill the sprites then throw the imps in there is one way.Besides,you dont need to block them forever.Even if you block hunters for a single turn,you eliminate a big threat.

Incompetent Sylvan player somehow managed not to plug in that hole quickly with his other units (eg. War Dancers). It's highly unlikely you'll block the Hunters for even a turn with only Gated units. You might arrive there alright, but all your summoned creatures would be dead before the Hunters move (most of the time).

All the hunters get to act furst,there goes a paladin.Its very ulikely to happen,but if luck goes against you it can happen.

Happens only if the Haven player actually deployed the Paladins. If you're fighting Master Hunters you're better off deploying only the Imperial Griffins and doing Battle Dive. And then there's the fact that it takes quite a number of Master Hunters to kill a Paladin at long range. By then Archangels would be on hand to resurrect them.

Incidentally if even one Master Hunter stack moved first, you would lose quite a few Blood Furies.

True,paladins wont be stationary,but they need to be manouvered a lot as to become killers.Unlike,for example,dragons that can remain at the same spot and pound on the same enemy until it dies.

It's really easy to use Paladins. Just move around the cursor and pick the angle from which you deal maximum damage. Something wrong with that?

So,you do admit that hydras are killers?

No, they're too slow to be killers, and require powerful magics to support them. They're not fodder either but they're not killers.

[Gaidal Cain]

Say what?If I am using chain lighting,ice bolt or circle of winter that doesnt mean Ive given up MS,that means that those spells are far better in a given situation.Its not like MS is the ultimate spell that you have to use at every opportunity so that using any other spell would be giving up on the MS.

You are giving up Meteor Shower because you are not casting it. Let's not say that Chain Lightning, Ice Bolt or Circle of Winter are actually better than Meteor Shower. Let's just say that Meteor Shower is a very dangerous spell such that if you're not casting it your opponent breathes a sigh of relief.

I'd hardly say he's "giving up" MS just because theer is a better spell to use. Only using MS is giving up on the options that Destructive Magic can offer.

Remember, we got into this sidetrack because I mentioned Magical Immunity as a counter. By casting it I've forced you to give up on Meteor Shower and use the less effective Chain Lightning. Does that satisfy you?

Since MI is only half as effective vs both those spells, I hardly see how that spell would change his priorities.

It is totally ridiculous to lose Paladins to neutrals. I challenge you to name even one situation where this is possible in a real game. If you say 'like fighting the Spectral Dragons in C4M5' then I'll say that's a campaign. This is a real game. Name me a situation where it is possible to lose Paladins to neutrals.

As soon as you're facing spellcasters that manages to go before paladins and which are strong enough for you not to send griffins in alone against, or when up against any of the level 7 units able to cross the field in one turn.

And yet when you argue here you assume you have everything. Your Warlock has Tactics to counter Ranged units. He also has Frenzy to kill 2 Archangels in 2 turns. Master of Storms to stun the Master Hunters, Expert Luck for +5 Luck, Expert Destruction to toss Meteor Shower and Irresistable Magic to pierce Magical Immunity. Explain.

That's 13 levels of a rather badly developed Warlock (badly since it's taken too few abilities for it to be able to choose the ones it really want- the skill choices are in themselves fine). Or actually 12, since you need Advanced Destruction for MS, and possibly even fewer due to starting skills. You'd realistically be looking at those skills + some extra abilities at level 18 or so with a competent player building the warlock.

[Pol]

So it's continuing, hmmm...

[Banedon]

Pol - you're right, I should get warned I think I need one. Somewhere.

I'd hardly say he's "giving up" MS just because theer is a better spell to use. Only using MS is giving up on the options that Destructive Magic can offer.

I think I got lost somewhere and thought that Meteor Shower does not affect a Magical Immune creature even with Irresistable Magic - I was wrong.

As soon as you're facing spellcasters that manages to go before paladins and which are strong enough for you not to send griffins in alone against, or when up against any of the level 7 units able to cross the field in one turn.

@Spellcasters - such as? There aren't that many destructive spell casters in the game. Druid Elders would go down to Imperial Griffins, as would Archmages. Only one I can think of would be Pit Lords, against whom you would not attack unless you had a seriously more powerful army.

And level 7 units are an oddity. You won't be fighting too many of them unless they're guarding some really important artifact or something similar. Again, you won't be attacking unless you had a seriously strong army. Against most level 7s you can just deploy Peasants and Marksmen and shoot them down as well.

That's 13 levels of a rather badly developed Warlock (badly since it's taken too few abilities for it to be able to choose the ones it really want- the skill choices are in themselves fine). Or actually 12, since you need Advanced Destruction for MS, and possibly even fewer due to starting skills. You'd realistically be looking at those skills + some extra abilities at level 18 or so with a competent player building the warlock.

Oh, don't embarass me I wasn't...shall we say...concentrating that much when I made that post, having devoted too much energy to another forum. But while I wrote with half my mind elsewhere, this might not make my words unsalvagable. The Warlock still needs to learn Sorcery, Logistics and (probably) Enlightenment. That makes:

Expert Attack = 3 levels
Battle Frenzy = 1 level
Tactics = 1 level
Expert Destructive Magic (no way the Warlock will go with just Advanced, even if Meteor Shower is level 4) = 3 levels
Master of Storms = 1 level
Expert Luck = 3 levels
Warlock's Luck (obvious choice here) = 2 levels
Expert Sorcery = 3 levels
Magic Insight / Arcane Training / Mana Regeneration = 3 levels
Expert Logistics = 3 levels
Expert Enlightment = 3 levels
Intelligence = 1 level
Empowered Spells = 1 level
Elemental Vision = 1 level
Expert Irresistable Magic = 2 levels

Taken together, this is a lot of levels indeed. Even assuming Witch Huts and so on, it would still take more than 20 levels. It's unlikely any Warlock will be able to take them all. He might not even be offered the skills to learn. I think something will have to give.