I am (finally) getting started with Heroes V

The new Heroes games produced by Ubisoft. Please specify which game you are referring to in your post.
User avatar
Mytical
Round Table Knight
Round Table Knight
Posts: 3780
Joined: 07 Aug 2006
Location: Mytical's Dimension

Unread postby Mytical » 13 Dec 2006, 07:01

Ehh I was giving them the benifit of the doubt :). Hehe. That would make the battle even more lopsided. Even at double growth this would be an interesting fight :).
Warning, may cause confusion, blindness, raising of eybrows, and insanity. Image

User avatar
DaemianLucifer
Round Table Hero
Round Table Hero
Posts: 11282
Joined: 06 Jan 2006
Location: City 17

Unread postby DaemianLucifer » 13 Dec 2006, 07:07

If the growth was factored in,then the skelies would win.1 on 1 however,assassins are unbeatable.

User avatar
Mytical
Round Table Knight
Round Table Knight
Posts: 3780
Joined: 07 Aug 2006
Location: Mytical's Dimension

Unread postby Mytical » 13 Dec 2006, 07:13

Oh I agree 100% with that. No other teir 1 can hope to have a chance vs assassins 1 on 1. Skel archers would die like flies when the assassins closed in and on all other tier 1's the assassins get free damage (poison). I think I am going to make a 'dream team' and see which creatures from what towns I would choose :). Wonder how many academy creatures will make the cut? :).
Warning, may cause confusion, blindness, raising of eybrows, and insanity. Image

User avatar
Banedon
Round Table Knight
Round Table Knight
Posts: 1825
Joined: 06 Jan 2006

Unread postby Banedon » 13 Dec 2006, 10:24

Sure,youre not responsible for your actions
You are provoking me. I will control myself however.
Of course you can kill them if you want to.But thats just it,you wont kill them before they do massive damage.And if you really loose your whole army just so you can kill the furries,what have you acomplished with that?I never said they are so incredably valuable,but they do the job.

As for the walkers and ranged units,thats what my spells are for.Later,thats what my BDs and my spells are for.With TA,thats what my hydras are for.
I bet you anything I can kill all your Blood Furies before they can act three times, dealing 'massive damage'. I just pointed out to you that the Blood Furies stay alive not because they have some godly defensive skills like hit-and-return but because they are not dangerous enough to be targetted. Of course if I aim the Blood Furies only I'll lose my entire army because I stupidly believed you and thought that Blood Furies are killer units.
I never said youd atack me in the castle,I said how you couldve repelled the sieges much easier in the cultist map,since that was what brought this whole discussion in the first place.
What are you going to defend it with? 10 Blood Furies that go down to one spell?
And who said blood furries dont die in the last battle?Not me.I said they dont die before they do enough damage.Furthermore,I said they last just as long as paladines in the last battle,which makes them an equal threat.And they are fragile in the early game? Well then,you just dont know how to utilize their full potential.
1. Blood Furies deal little damage compared to the real killer units (in the case of Dungeon, Black Dragons) in the last battle.
2. They do not become an 'equal threat' because they last just as long as Paladins. My Zombies never die in the final battle. They're more dangerous than my Skeleton Archers, Wraiths, Spectral Dragons and Vampire Lords.
3. You have yet to show me a way to beat ranged creatures or fast neutrals using Blood Furies. All you've said are using Deep Hydras, not Blood Furies - and reaching the Deep Hydras can take a while.
As for my last two sentences:usually my griffins land either in the middle,or near one of the ends,depending on who I attacked.80% of the time,thats the opposite end of where the paladins are attacking,thus a few of the enmys units will target the griffins because they cannot reach the paladins.This is good though,because it means paladins can survive a turn longer.
Griffins move fast. If they land near the middle they can reach the entire map. If they land in your opponent's end they're in even better position. If they land in your own you can always Battle Dive again, but this doesn't happen often.
Yes,you know it doesnt work because you failed,yet not just me,but GC as well told you that it does work.So just because you didnt have the best skill set you think you know better than the two of us?Not to mention that Infiltrator suggests the same strategy in the walkthrough.But I guess you know better than him as well.
Look carefully at what Gaidal Cain said. Look also at what the Infriltrator said: It is very likely that you cannot hold out both towns, even if you didn't really lose any significant army yet. Did either say you can defend both castles? You, however, did. Shall I give you the quotes?
DaemianLucifer wrote:First few attacks,however,should be reppeled combining aaeglr and shadya,one defending one town,other defending another,while slowly flagging the mines.
Yes you can.And they wont get caugh outside of town if both have expert logistics and you see when your enemy is coming.But I see what was your problem:You had to worry from attacks from the scripted heroes as well as from the attacks from the second town on the island.If you have both towns,not only do you increase the distance between you and your enemies,but you increase your chances of reaching the safety of a town when the enemy comes.With more freedom of movement you can flag the mines and defend against the attacks.
I do not know if you can make it with Expert Logistics; my heart tells me you can't. And you're completely missing the point: the second castle is irrelevant, because the heroes that attack you are the scripted ones. They come from both portals, and whether you own the second castle does not change things (though they may stupidly decide to stay in the castle for a week - that's what happened in my case).
Sure,youll align them.Especially if I am the one with tactics.Dont forget that you dont know where Ill put my units(and neither do I know where youll put yours),so one will have advantage mostly due to luck.Even if you guess correctly,chances are that furries will go first because of the higher initiative,thus halfing your cerberi.
1. I align them. I move them in the battle itself. Of course I have to move them. No idea what you were thinking.
2. So the Blood Furies move first. What are you going to do, attack? That'd place them within attacking range of my Cerberi, even if you 'halfing' them. So much for Blood Furies not dancing.
3. If I'm Inferno against Dungeon I probably won't be moving the Cerberi so soon; I'll be throwing Gates all around. Avoid that.

User avatar
DaemianLucifer
Round Table Hero
Round Table Hero
Posts: 11282
Joined: 06 Jan 2006
Location: City 17

Unread postby DaemianLucifer » 13 Dec 2006, 14:58

Banedon wrote: You are provoking me. I will control myself however.
There are a few things about provoking and being provoked that I could say now,but I dont want to be rude :devious:
Banedon wrote: I bet you anything I can kill all your Blood Furies before they can act three times, dealing 'massive damage'.
Really?How?Furries will surelly act first,and that already is enough.If you have no fast melee units that can reach them after that,you can kill off half of them with one of your shooters and hero,unless youre a warlock(I dont know about dwarves hough,but my guess is they can do as much damage as well).Then comes another strike,usually aimed towards your fast melee unit that got occupied on the other side,and this strike will be coupled with lizards bite,thus again will deal massive damage.And thats all if you dont get high morale,nor if you TA them(though I doubt that would be a smart move,but depends on your and enemy armies).
Banedon wrote: I just pointed out to you that the Blood Furies stay alive not because they have some godly defensive skills like hit-and-return but because they are not dangerous enough to be targetted.
Yup,if you have few of them.But a good warlock player will have all his furries in the last battle.And thats not something to be triffled with.
Banedon wrote: Of course if I aim the Blood Furies only I'll lose my entire army because I stupidly believed you and thought that Blood Furies are killer units.
Honestly,you arent making any sense now.You were the one saying that youll concentrate only on furries,not me.I never said that they are worth an entire army.Besides,you can concentrate all your armies on paladins,and again loose.Does that mean that you stupidly believed that paladins are killer units?Or does it mean that you used an extremelly poor strategy?
Banedon wrote: What are you going to defend it with? 10 Blood Furies that go down to one spell?
You have some time to buy units between the two atacks,and these 10 furries will benefit you much more than that single raider.Besides,splitting 7 furries in stacks of 1 can indeed win you a battle if you are using aaeglr.
Banedon wrote: 1. Blood Furies deal little damage compared to the real killer units (in the case of Dungeon, Black Dragons) in the last battle.
Oh really?Ok,lets use the map in question shall we.Not counting the last battle,which was an overkill(50+ blacks,I took my time),and not counting the defenses with shadya when I either had no blacks,or lost them in the first or second round,lets see how they faired with aaeglr:

Most of the money went in reinforcing shadya,so the initial strikeforce had cca 30 furries and a single blackie(I think it was a shadow,but lets use a stronger one for simplification).So,in a fight,furries act,they deal ~150-210 damage because of relativelly small attack.Blackie hits and deals ~90-140 damage because of relativelly high attack.Furries attack and deal another 150-210 damage,and they attack yet again before the dragon gets his next attack.So its ~3*180=540 for furries against 2*115=230.Even if you give a retal to the dragon,its still ~345,which is considerably less than 540.By the time I god the second blackie I had 50 furries,thus again tipping the scale towards them.True,the cost was nerfed in 1.3,so you couldve gotten blackies a bit sooner,but the damage would still be about equal.You cannot just ignore the cost and say that blacks deal more damage,because you just wont have them in the same amount as furries,and furries will act 3 times while blacks act only 2 times.
Banedon wrote: 2. They do not become an 'equal threat' because they last just as long as Paladins. My Zombies never die in the final battle. They're more dangerous than my Skeleton Archers, Wraiths, Spectral Dragons and Vampire Lords.
No,they are an equal threat because they act much sooner then paladins,and suffer no retal,and stay away from enemy archers range.
Banedon wrote: 3. You have yet to show me a way to beat ranged creatures or fast neutrals using Blood Furies. All you've said are using Deep Hydras, not Blood Furies - and reaching the Deep Hydras can take a while.
I did show you a way,but it seems you werent listening.I wont repeat myself,look it up in previous pages.
Banedon wrote: Griffins move fast. If they land near the middle they can reach the entire map. If they land in your opponent's end they're in even better position. If they land in your own you can always Battle Dive again, but this doesn't happen often.
Yup,griffins are fast,but still battle dive takes time,and when they land,luck will have it that they land near a melee unit thats next to act.Maybe I just was unlucky with that,who knows.
Banedon wrote: Look carefully at what Gaidal Cain said. Look also at what the Infriltrator said: It is very likely that you cannot hold out both towns, even if you didn't really lose any significant army yet. Did either say you can defend both castles? You, however, did. Shall I give you the quotes?
Ahem:
Gaidal Cain wrote: IIRC, there isn't any permanent stat-boosters on map 1 (apart from XP, but that's no problem). The difference will lie solely in skill and ability choice. I managed to keep the castles through those first attacks (the AI will attack you once with each Dungeon hero it has with great stats, and then leave you alone. Once you realize this, the map will be much easier). Having taken both castles by day 3 (or was it 4 days it took to reach castle 2?) helped as well (and there Shadya's particular skills were crucial).
Plus Infiltrator did say that you may loose the castle to the demon lord.Not quite the same because demon lord doesnt have dungeon units in his ranks to boost them with the population of this castle.Plus,he did say what I told you before:Those extra troops you get from two castles are invaluable when compared to just troops from a single castle.
Banedon wrote: I do not know if you can make it with Expert Logistics; my heart tells me you can't. And you're completely missing the point: the second castle is irrelevant, because the heroes that attack you are the scripted ones. They come from both portals, and whether you own the second castle does not change things (though they may stupidly decide to stay in the castle for a week - that's what happened in my case).
So what if they come from both portals?Theyll attack you in town from wherever they come.If they come from the higher portal,let them take the empty city(actually I did loose this castle to lethos,but I retook it,thus I held up with both castles),and them come towards your heavilly defended castle and die.And you can reach all the mines you need and chain your troops between attacks.I know I did.You need one day to ferry the troops from a town to the castle,one day to claim a mine or two,and one day to get the troops back(actually I didnt flag the mines imidiatelly,but used a hero to kill the guardians,then sent the troops back,and flag the mines after that).
Banedon wrote: 1. I align them. I move them in the battle itself. Of course I have to move them. No idea what you were thinking.
While you are aligning them I will use my furries to pound on your army.Kill them after that,I dont care.
Banedon wrote: 2. So the Blood Furies move first. What are you going to do, attack? That'd place them within attacking range of my Cerberi, even if you 'halfing' them. So much for Blood Furies not dancing.
Thats in the case that both are opposed each other in the start,which is not always the case,and which may be the only favourable outcome for you.
Banedon wrote: 3. If I'm Inferno against Dungeon I probably won't be moving the Cerberi so soon; I'll be throwing Gates all around. Avoid that.
Unless you have urgashs call,I wont even bother with the gated units.

User avatar
Banedon
Round Table Knight
Round Table Knight
Posts: 1825
Joined: 06 Jan 2006

Unread postby Banedon » 14 Dec 2006, 01:59

Really?How?Furries will surelly act first,and that already is enough.If you have no fast melee units that can reach them after that,you can kill off half of them with one of your shooters and hero,unless youre a warlock(I dont know about dwarves hough,but my guess is they can do as much damage as well).Then comes another strike,usually aimed towards your fast melee unit that got occupied on the other side,and this strike will be coupled with lizards bite,thus again will deal massive damage.And thats all if you dont get high morale,nor if you TA them(though I doubt that would be a smart move,but depends on your and enemy armies).
Good. You've finally made a prediction I can verify directly, in a way that brooks no debate. Give me a race. I'll fight the battle for you and kill all Blood Furies before they can move three times. No Dwarves; I don't have HoF.
Yup,if you have few of them.But a good warlock player will have all his furries in the last battle.And thats not something to be triffled with.
I'm much more afraid of 20 Archmagi than 20 Blood Furies. And who says they're not something to be trifled with? I'd much rather target the Black Dragons and Shadow Matriaches than Blood Furies. Even if you make it through every neutral battle without losing a Blood Fury they will not be the first target in battle.
Honestly,you arent making any sense now.You were the one saying that youll concentrate only on furries,not me.I never said that they are worth an entire army.Besides,you can concentrate all your armies on paladins,and again loose.Does that mean that you stupidly believed that paladins are killer units?Or does it mean that you used an extremelly poor strategy?
You are remarkably insensitive on why I even brought up that example. You claimed indirectly that Blood Furies are nigh indestructible. Somehow their godly hit-and-return special makes them as difficult to kill as Paladins. I tell you it is not so, and that the Blood Furies stay alive simply because they are not targetted. You see?

Concentrating on the Paladins will certainly produce a closer battle than concentrating on the Blood Furies. Losing is normal - half the people who play Heroes 5 each day do not win. But those who think Blood Furies are merciless killers and target them outright will lose rather more than 50% of their games, and get taunted for using an 'extremelly poor strategy'.
You have some time to buy units between the two atacks,and these 10 furries will benefit you much more than that single raider.Besides,splitting 7 furries in stacks of 1 can indeed win you a battle if you are using aaeglr.
You can only buy units at the start of the week. And note I never attempted to defend a castle with one Raider, I just said I survived a seige with one Raider. I did not chain that Raider up to defend the other town. It was you who came up with the idea of chaining creatures between towns to defend them both. No idea where you came up with that idea, and I can again bet you anything that 7 Blood Furies are insufficient to defend a castle if you're using Agrael.
Oh really?Ok,lets use the map in question shall we.Not counting the last battle,which was an overkill(50+ blacks,I took my time),and not counting the defenses with shadya when I either had no blacks,or lost them in the first or second round,lets see how they faired with aaeglr:
Two things. One, my classification was a general classification, meant to apply to all maps outside of the campaign. Campaign maps are not normal maps. Two, of course 30 Blood Furies beat one Black Dragon in terms of damage output. Then they reproduce. For every two Black Dragons you get another 10 Blood Furies. Tell me, do you think 20 Black Dragons are more deadly...or 230 Blood Furies?

In case you're wondering, I'm dismissing your calculations as irrelevant.
No,they are an equal threat because they act much sooner then paladins,and suffer no retal,and stay away from enemy archers range.
You rush Paladins into the heart of the enemy force without first neutralizing the enemy ranged creatures somehow? No wonder your Paladins die quickly. High initiative alone is hardly what I'd call 'dangerous' as well.
I did show you a way,but it seems you werent listening.I wont repeat myself,look it up in previous pages.
If you did, find it. This is what you wrote in response to my query of how you deal with Ranged creatures without Hydras:
DaemianLucifer wrote:Ok,now you are just being silly.You cannot argue that sylvan is better because its master hunters are killers,and dungeon needs to wait to get hydras.Deep hydras can be gotten much sooner than master hunters because of the wood cost(dont know how this is with 2.0 though),so if you dont have deep hydras you dont have master hunters either.And you can beat ranged units far more easily with warlock than with a ranger(deploy just minos then spell them to death).If you fight ranged units with just hunters dancers and sprites you are bound to loose some hunters.
Yup,griffins are fast,but still battle dive takes time,and when they land,luck will have it that they land near a melee unit thats next to act.Maybe I just was unlucky with that,who knows.
See, you've just refuted your own statement:
DaemianLucifer wrote:Your paladins wont get to act if you let them wait.Besides,no matter how much you wait,paladins are always going to be alone in enemys camp.Whos going to support them?Squires?Griffins?Peasants?Only angels have enough speed and power to go in quick melee with paladins,but theyll be bussy as well when they do.
Thanks for blowing holes in your own arguments, I appreciate it.
Plus Infiltrator did say that you may loose the castle to the demon lord.Not quite the same because demon lord doesnt have dungeon units in his ranks to boost them with the population of this castle.Plus,he did say what I told you before:Those extra troops you get from two castles are invaluable when compared to just troops from a single castle.
@GaidalCain: Please elaborate; what version did you play on?
@Infriltrator: You completely missed the essence of his words. Look carefully:
Infriltrator wrote:Well, hold your breath on heroic. Your nightmare just started! There are still a handful of powerful heroes rushing straight to you, and they are not less powerful than the ones you've just beaten. The first wave of demon army will knock on your door on the third day as well! It is very likely that you cannot hold out both towns, even if you didn't really lose any significant army yet (learned Resurrection from mission 2?). You might need empty up Castle #2 and focus on defending Castle #1, which is much better built and profitable (as you should have put a capital in it). The demon army will take Castle #2 (and build it up a bit, until you take it back later rather easily).
"Might" in the second sentence is, in my opinion, a safety word used in case of a superb player who can somehow hold both castles (which I do not think is possible).
So what if they come from both portals?Theyll attack you in town from wherever they come.If they come from the higher portal,let them take the empty city(actually I did loose this castle to lethos,but I retook it,thus I held up with both castles),and them come towards your heavilly defended castle and die.And you can reach all the mines you need and chain your troops between attacks.I know I did.You need one day to ferry the troops from a town to the castle,one day to claim a mine or two,and one day to get the troops back(actually I didnt flag the mines imidiatelly,but used a hero to kill the guardians,then sent the troops back,and flag the mines after that).
Amazing! As if I didn't already know that - if you didn't take the castle and 'held up with both castles' you could not have won the map. At this rate I'll just say I went out and took all 6 castles outside the garrison first! You've once again blown complete holes in your own arguments. You cannot hold both castles. You cannot chain your troops between attacks because your hired heroes are not high-level enough to clear the mines and if you use Raelag / Shadya they'll be stuck outside and hunted down first. And I :D at your statement that they'll come towards your heavily defended castle and die. They do not if Raelag / Shadya is outside, nor do they always do at once.
While you are aligning them I will use my furries to pound on your army.Kill them after that,I dont care.
You will use one attack with your Blood Furies. They all die after that. Thanks.
Thats in the case that both are opposed each other in the start,which is not always the case,and which may be the only favourable outcome for you.
Like I said, I will align them, whereupon your Blood Furies get one attack. No idea what you are thinking.
Unless you have urgashs call,I wont even bother with the gated units.
You mean you don't attack the Gated creatures? You happily let me place them in front of your Shadow Matriaches and Assassins? Why, thanks.

*Shakes head*

User avatar
DaemianLucifer
Round Table Hero
Round Table Hero
Posts: 11282
Joined: 06 Jan 2006
Location: City 17

Unread postby DaemianLucifer » 14 Dec 2006, 03:59

Banedon wrote: Good. You've finally made a prediction I can verify directly, in a way that brooks no debate. Give me a race. I'll fight the battle for you and kill all Blood Furies before they can move three times. No Dwarves; I don't have HoF.
I didnt say three attacks back there,I said massive damage.Do it with any race if you want.I know you will,because,like you said,you dont know how to play warlock.
Banedon wrote: I'm much more afraid of 20 Archmagi than 20 Blood Furies. And who says they're not something to be trifled with? I'd much rather target the Black Dragons and Shadow Matriaches than Blood Furies. Even if you make it through every neutral battle without losing a Blood Fury they will not be the first target in battle.
Depends on how many matriarchs and dragons there are relly.
Banedon wrote: You are remarkably insensitive on why I even brought up that example. You claimed indirectly that Blood Furies are nigh indestructible. Somehow their godly hit-and-return special makes them as difficult to kill as Paladins. I tell you it is not so, and that the Blood Furies stay alive simply because they are not targetted. You see?
Yup,hit and run keeps them out of reach for most units while they are attacking,while when paladins do attack,almost the entire enemy army can reach them.
Banedon wrote: Concentrating on the Paladins will certainly produce a closer battle than concentrating on the Blood Furies. Losing is normal - half the people who play Heroes 5 each day do not win. But those who think Blood Furies are merciless killers and target them outright will lose rather more than 50% of their games, and get taunted for using an 'extremelly poor strategy'.
Again,depending on how much paladins there are.Not every major battle is 10+ level 7s,30+ level 6s,and hundreds of level 1s,you know.
Banedon wrote: You can only buy units at the start of the week. And note I never attempted to defend a castle with one Raider, I just said I survived a seige with one Raider. I did not chain that Raider up to defend the other town. It was you who came up with the idea of chaining creatures between towns to defend them both. No idea where you came up with that idea, and I can again bet you anything that 7 Blood Furies are insufficient to defend a castle if you're using Agrael.
No,in the first week you can buy creatures as soon as build a dwelling.And I never said that those 10 furries will defend a castle,but that youll have 10 furries surviving instead of the 1 raider you mentioned.And where I came with that idea?Thats how I beat the map.And it was quite easy to do,not counting the lethos' attack.Also I didnt say that you can repell all the attacks with just 7 furries,but you can repell some of the first ones.
Banedon wrote: Two things. One, my classification was a general classification, meant to apply to all maps outside of the campaign. Campaign maps are not normal maps. Two, of course 30 Blood Furies beat one Black Dragon in terms of damage output. Then they reproduce. For every two Black Dragons you get another 10 Blood Furies. Tell me, do you think 20 Black Dragons are more deadly...or 230 Blood Furies?
And tell me,how long before you get 5 dragons?6 weeks?What if the map ends in 4How often will you play a map for so long to have 20 blackies in a final fight?Especially on small maps.
Banedon wrote: You rush Paladins into the heart of the enemy force without first neutralizing the enemy ranged creatures somehow? No wonder your Paladins die quickly. High initiative alone is hardly what I'd call 'dangerous' as well.
Yes,let my paladins wait for the cerberi to come to my ranks because I dont want to get near the succubi.Let those pit lords reign terror on my ranks because I dont want to get in range of the protected succubi.Let all the units gate around my archers because I dont want the succubi to hit my paladins for full damage. :rolleyes:
Banedon wrote: If you did, find it. This is what you wrote in response to my query of how you deal with Ranged creatures without Hydras:
Sorry,wrong quote.Much before it.The one about tactics and furries.
Banedon wrote: See, you've just refuted your own statement:
DaemianLucifer wrote:Your paladins wont get to act if you let them wait.Besides,no matter how much you wait,paladins are always going to be alone in enemys camp.Whos going to support them?Squires?Griffins?Peasants?Only angels have enough speed and power to go in quick melee with paladins,but theyll be bussy as well when they do.
Thanks for blowing holes in your own arguments, I appreciate it.
Did I say that those units that would target griffins would reach the paladins if griffins werent there?No,I think I did not.
Banedon wrote: @Infriltrator: You completely missed the essence of his words. Look carefully:
.
.
.
"Might" in the second sentence is, in my opinion, a safety word used in case of a superb player who can somehow hold both castles (which I do not think is possible).
It is possible.Lets say 50% of the time you wont even have to recapture the castle.
Banedon wrote: Amazing! As if I didn't already know that - if you didn't take the castle and 'held up with both castles' you could not have won the map. At this rate I'll just say I went out and took all 6 castles outside the garrison first! You've once again blown complete holes in your own arguments. You cannot hold both castles. You cannot chain your troops between attacks because your hired heroes are not high-level enough to clear the mines and if you use Raelag / Shadya they'll be stuck outside and hunted down first. And I :D at your statement that they'll come towards your heavily defended castle and die. They do not if Raelag / Shadya is outside, nor do they always do at once.
No,the heroes wont hunt you if you are on the complete opposite of the island(at least they didnt do that for me,I dont know if scripts changed),only if they can reach them the next day.And your hired heroes are there just for extra movement,nothing more.Again,I said I lost the castle to lethos only,and it wasnt even for the full day.You on the other hand said that you lost a castle for a week.Thats what I meant by holding both castles.I still could purchase a building in both castles on each day.
Banedon wrote: You will use one attack with your Blood Furies. They all die after that. Thanks.
No,I will be able to use another attack because you will waste a turn aligning your cerberi
Banedon wrote: Like I said, I will align them, whereupon your Blood Furies get one attack. No idea what you are thinking.
I was talking about the tactics phase.If you waste a turn to align your cerberi just so you can take out my furries,you acomplish nothing.
Banedon wrote: You mean you don't attack the Gated creatures? You happily let me place them in front of your Shadow Matriaches and Assassins? Why, thanks.
Untill the time they get to the BF and get to act Ill focus on killing the real army.Besides,even if you do gate next to my assassins and matriarchs,thats what minos and hydras are for,and not looking to the other side wishing they had more movement like you said.

User avatar
Banedon
Round Table Knight
Round Table Knight
Posts: 1825
Joined: 06 Jan 2006

Unread postby Banedon » 14 Dec 2006, 04:48

I didnt say three attacks back there,I said massive damage.Do it with any race if you want.I know you will,because,like you said,you dont know how to play warlock.
If you define 'massive damage' as two attacks, I have nothing to say. Also, if you say I don't know how to play Warlock, then I'll let you control. I'll tell you the situations and you can tell me what to do.
Yup,hit and run keeps them out of reach for most units while they are attacking,while when paladins do attack,almost the entire enemy army can reach them.
I'll stress this one...more...time. It does not matter if they're out of range. They are not getting targetted in the first place.
Again,depending on how much paladins there are.Not every major battle is 10+ level 7s,30+ level 6s,and hundreds of level 1s,you know.
Many games feature very many Paladins on the battlefield. I'll just point you to screenshots of the MMR strategy. Fought at week 5, having suffered a defeat earlier, Vittorio had 18 Cavaliers and 208 Marksmen. And that was because they fought with the time limit. If there hadn't been one I'm sure the armies would have grown bigger.

I know you intend to show that, if a crucial battle is fought earlier, the Blood Furies are significant units on the battlefield. I don't deny that - but in these same early battles the Blood Furies are going to get targetted and the dancing won't stop them from dying. All your experience with Blood Furies not dying stem simply from the fact that your opponents were not prioritizing them in the first place.
No,in the first week you can buy creatures as soon as build a dwelling.And I never said that those 10 furries will defend a castle,but that youll have 10 furries surviving instead of the 1 raider you mentioned.And where I came with that idea?Thats how I beat the map.And it was quite easy to do,not counting the lethos' attack.Also I didnt say that you can repell all the attacks with just 7 furries,but you can repell some of the first ones.
Where are you going to get the resources for those dwellings if you do not have the resources? 10 Furies over one Raider? Good luck. The AI targets the stack they perceive as most dangerous, and it's the Blood Furies that will die first. The Raider stack is more likely to survive the seige.

And, this quotes belongs to you:
DaemianLucifer wrote:Besides,splitting 7 furries in stacks of 1 can indeed win you a battle if you are using aaeglr.
And tell me,how long before you get 5 dragons?6 weeks?What if the map ends in 4How often will you play a map for so long to have 20 blackies in a final fight?Especially on small maps.
Yes, six weeks. The map may not end in the fourth week. You may try to do so but I may not allow it to happen. You may attempt to fource a confrontation; I'd probably hold out for a week and then engage you while your chained troops have yet to arrive.
Yes,let my paladins wait for the cerberi to come to my ranks because I dont want to get near the succubi.Let those pit lords reign terror on my ranks because I dont want to get in range of the protected succubi.Let all the units gate around my archers because I dont want the succubi to hit my paladins for full damage.
Surround your Succubi and they will not be able to avoid Battle Dive. Leave them less squares to move to and the same thing happens - or they have to give up shooting for that turn. Protect the Paladins with Endurance and speed them up with Haste. Charge straight and they'll reach the Succubi after two turns at most. Take advantage of the Succubi Mistresses' relatively low one-target damage and pierce the defenses.

In a final battle you will take damage; it's your duty to plan what you will lose. Up against Inferno would result in Inferno being the one to take the offense - after all, Haven has the stronger Ranged troops (and a whole lot more of them). Going against Sylvan would force your hand, but Sylvan is rather worse at forming an unmovable wall and the Paladins will break through quickly. Nowhere have I said not to move the Paladins across. All I've said is not to move them over at once. You must do your preparation. Here's the quote:
Banedon wrote:Next I bet you'll point at my phrase, 'with all the opposing creatures yet to move' and then the initiative system. But it doesn't change certain things. You could have the Marksmen shoot first, have the hero cast some blessings / curses, have the Inquistors cast Righteous Might and Endurance and Haste (of course, with split Inquistor stacks). Charging the Paladins in isn't clever at all.
Sorry,wrong quote.Much before it.The one about tactics and furries.
You left the part on dealing with 3 or more enemy Ranged stacks unanswered. I'll quote wimfrits - a player I certainly think is better than me - as well:
wimfrits wrote:As for blood furies vs ranged units; the point is that you cannot afford losing blood furies. With the furies stats it means that you cannot afford to be attacked. So if there is a decent change that the ranged units will be able to land an attack on the furies, it automatically means that you cannot deploy blood furies. In most battles vs ranged, it means blood furies are not an option.
And
wimfrits wrote:On heroic, furries and raiders against ranged units means casualties though.
Did I say that those units that would target griffins would reach the paladins if griffins werent there?No,I think I did not.
You have no common sense then. Tell me, who places their slow units far from the Ranged creatures where the Paladins are likely to be?
It is possible.Lets say 50% of the time you wont even have to recapture the castle.
I think it takes a gargantuan leap of faith to believe someone who hasn't played the map in v1.4.
No,the heroes wont hunt you if you are on the complete opposite of the island(at least they didnt do that for me,I dont know if scripts changed),only if they can reach them the next day.And your hired heroes are there just for extra movement,nothing more.Again,I said I lost the castle to lethos only,and it wasnt even for the full day.You on the other hand said that you lost a castle for a week.Thats what I meant by holding both castles.I still could purchase a building in both castles on each day.
One hero pursued Shadya all the way up the place the Inferno Lords come from, forcing me to reload. See? And if you had the armies to attack Lethos in a castle, you are most certainly playing a different map.
No,I will be able to use another attack because you will waste a turn aligning your cerberi
Shame on me for even aligning my Cerberi and not attacking your Blood Furies at once. More shame on you for not realizing that. Remember, you yourself said that it'd be luck if my Cerberi are opposite your Blood Furies at first. Don't forget as well that Cerberi move as fast as Blood Furies in terms of speed.
I was talking about the tactics phase.If you waste a turn to align your cerberi just so you can take out my furries,you acomplish nothing.
I accomplish something. I force you to move if you want to preserve your Blood Furies. You get no attack either, but my Cerberi get repositioned.
Untill the time they get to the BF and get to act Ill focus on killing the real army.Besides,even if you do gate next to my assassins and matriarchs,thats what minos and hydras are for,and not looking to the other side wishing they had more movement like you said.
More things:

1. The units I gate with - Cerberi, Familiars and Nightmares - all move very fast, so they will arrive quickly.
2. Look carefully at what you said that time:
DaemianLucifer wrote: Why would you move them back?What are your minos and hydras doing if you have to move furries back when melee units come close?
Since they are guarding your Ranged stacks, they are out of range of the approaching melee creatures and so they are "looking at the far-off creature and thinking 'I wish I could move a bit further on the battlefield'"

I bet you don't understand. I will explain carefully then. The creatures I use to rush your Blood Furies are the very fast ones - in the case of Inferno, they are the Cerberi, Archdevils and Nightmares. They cross the battlefield quickly and I do not need to move them into mid-map before they can threaten the Blood Furies. Deep Hydras and Minotaurs have nowhere close the movement speed, so if you want them to protect your Blood Furies you have to advance them. But you aren't. You're guarding your Assassins / Shadow Matriaches. So your Deep Hydras and Minotaurs have to do double duty that is beyond them. See?

@Mytical - I appreciate all you've done to defuse this debate, but given the circumstances I think that isn't going to happen. I'm sorry.

User avatar
DaemianLucifer
Round Table Hero
Round Table Hero
Posts: 11282
Joined: 06 Jan 2006
Location: City 17

Unread postby DaemianLucifer » 14 Dec 2006, 06:10

Banedon wrote: If you define 'massive damage' as two attacks, I have nothing to say. Also, if you say I don't know how to play Warlock, then I'll let you control. I'll tell you the situations and you can tell me what to do.
But of course,killing of that angel,and halfing those paladins is nothing important,really.Why would you care?
Banedon wrote: I'll stress this one...more...time. It does not matter if they're out of range. They are not getting targetted in the first place.
Silly me for missunderstanding you that furries arent killers because they are always the first to be targeted and killed,when you were actually saying that they arent killers because they arent always the first to be targeted and killed :rolleyes:
Banedon wrote: Many games feature very many Paladins on the battlefield. I'll just point you to screenshots of the MMR strategy. Fought at week 5, having suffered a defeat earlier, Vittorio had 18 Cavaliers and 208 Marksmen. And that was because they fought with the time limit. If there hadn't been one I'm sure the armies would have grown bigger.
And how many blackies were in those battles?Did they completelly overshadow the furries with their massive numbers?
Banedon wrote: I know you intend to show that, if a crucial battle is fought earlier, the Blood Furies are significant units on the battlefield. I don't deny that - but in these same early battles the Blood Furies are going to get targetted and the dancing won't stop them from dying. All your experience with Blood Furies not dying stem simply from the fact that your opponents were not prioritizing them in the first place.
You are right,they wont survive,but they will deal a massive punch before that.Enough for you to win,and that is what matters in the end.
Banedon wrote: Where are you going to get the resources for those dwellings if you do not have the resources? 10 Furies over one Raider? Good luck. The AI targets the stack they perceive as most dangerous, and it's the Blood Furies that will die first. The Raider stack is more likely to survive the seige.
So what if that rider is lower priority?If you increase your furries stack by another 10,that gives you another 160 hit points your enemy has to kill while you are firing your spells.Plus,they can attack without puttint themselves in danger of retaliation,unlike the riders,so they will add to your damage output as well.

As for the resources,you are the one saying that you cannot flag the mines,not me.I say that you can flag the mines between the attacks.Besides,dont tell me that all you used was your first four level buildings and creatures you bought only on weekly basis.
Banedon wrote: And, this quotes belongs to you:
DaemianLucifer wrote:Besides,splitting 7 furries in stacks of 1 can indeed win you a battle if you are using aaeglr.
Yes it does.And it says a battle not every battle.
Banedon wrote: Yes, six weeks. The map may not end in the fourth week. You may try to do so but I may not allow it to happen. You may attempt to fource a confrontation; I'd probably hold out for a week and then engage you while your chained troops have yet to arrive.
Depends on the map,really.
Banedon wrote: Surround your Succubi and they will not be able to avoid Battle Dive. Leave them less squares to move to and the same thing happens - or they have to give up shooting for that turn. Protect the Paladins with Endurance and speed them up with Haste. Charge straight and they'll reach the Succubi after two turns at most. Take advantage of the Succubi Mistresses' relatively low one-target damage and pierce the defenses.
Id rather use my paladins to get rid of pit lords or devils or nightmares then to fight succubi guardians(which will usually be pit lords or devils,but thats not the point).For succubi Ill use griffins,and crossbowmen for the finishing blow.
Banedon wrote: In a final battle you will take damage; it's your duty to plan what you will lose. Up against Inferno would result in Inferno being the one to take the offense - after all, Haven has the stronger Ranged troops (and a whole lot more of them). Going against Sylvan would force your hand, but Sylvan is rather worse at forming an unmovable wall and the Paladins will break through quickly. Nowhere have I said not to move the Paladins across. All I've said is not to move them over at once. You must do your preparation. Here's the quote:
Banedon wrote:Next I bet you'll point at my phrase, 'with all the opposing creatures yet to move' and then the initiative system. But it doesn't change certain things. You could have the Marksmen shoot first, have the hero cast some blessings / curses, have the Inquistors cast Righteous Might and Endurance and Haste (of course, with split Inquistor stacks). Charging the Paladins in isn't clever at all.
Neither did I say that you will send them in unprotected.But even protected they still face all of the army mostly on their own.And once resurrected,they loose all the buffs.Furthermore,sometimes it is much better to rush them in and protect them after if you know youll act first,or that youll loose just one or two.It gives you another attack.
Banedon wrote: You left the part on dealing with 3 or more enemy Ranged stacks unanswered.
No I did not.You place the raiders in between the two closer stacks.Or you use a meteor shower on the closer two stacks.
Banedon wrote: I'll quote wimfrits - a player I certainly think is better than me - as well:
wimfrits wrote:As for blood furies vs ranged units; the point is that you cannot afford losing blood furies. With the furies stats it means that you cannot afford to be attacked. So if there is a decent change that the ranged units will be able to land an attack on the furies, it automatically means that you cannot deploy blood furies. In most battles vs ranged, it means blood furies are not an option.
And
wimfrits wrote:On heroic, furries and raiders against ranged units means casualties though.

Banedon wrote: You have no common sense then. Tell me, who places their slow units far from the Ranged creatures where the Paladins are likely to be?
To use inferno again:Pit lords to the left,succubi to the right.
Banedon wrote: One hero pursued Shadya all the way up the place the Inferno Lords come from, forcing me to reload. See? And if you had the armies to attack Lethos in a castle, you are most certainly playing a different map.
Bad luck I guess.You cannot base on just one case.You said that lethos stayed in the castle for a week.Can you say that hell always do that?And I didnt face him in the castle.He left the castle to chase me,I took the castle back because I had logistics,then he attacked me in it.Dumb AI,I know,but what you gonna do?
Banedon wrote: Shame on me for even aligning my Cerberi and not attacking your Blood Furies at once. More shame on you for not realizing that. Remember, you yourself said that it'd be luck if my Cerberi are opposite your Blood Furies at first. Don't forget as well that Cerberi move as fast as Blood Furies in terms of speed.
Yes,I said that with luck youll have them in front.But what if you dont?You were the one saying that youll spend a turn alining them.As for when you get lucky,I already said that furries act first,thus will at least half the cerberi.
Banedon wrote: I accomplish something. I force you to move if you want to preserve your Blood Furies. You get no attack either, but my Cerberi get repositioned.
Again,why would I do that?I preserve furries only against neutrals.Later on,I use them to punch a whole in enemy ranks,or to dispose of a dangerous stack.They do that on their first move,and die afterwards.Of course,they may survive if the opponent attacks something else,but in that case theyll continue dealing massive damage.The good thing in HV is that it focuses more on making each stack just as valuable.They may not have acomplished this everywhere,but in dungeon they came very close.
Banedon wrote: More things:

1. The units I gate with - Cerberi, Familiars and Nightmares - all move very fast, so they will arrive quickly.
Yes,and its always the furries that will act first.If they manage to occupy nightmares or cerberi long enough,they did their job.
Banedon wrote: 2. Look carefully at what you said that time:
DaemianLucifer wrote: Why would you move them back?What are your minos and hydras doing if you have to move furries back when melee units come close?
Since they are guarding your Ranged stacks, they are out of range of the approaching melee creatures and so they are "looking at the far-off creature and thinking 'I wish I could move a bit further on the battlefield'"

I bet you don't understand. I will explain carefully then. The creatures I use to rush your Blood Furies are the very fast ones - in the case of Inferno, they are the Cerberi, Archdevils and Nightmares. They cross the battlefield quickly and I do not need to move them into mid-map before they can threaten the Blood Furies. Deep Hydras and Minotaurs have nowhere close the movement speed, so if you want them to protect your Blood Furies you have to advance them. But you aren't. You're guarding your Assassins / Shadow Matriaches. So your Deep Hydras and Minotaurs have to do double duty that is beyond them. See?
Not really.The minos and hydras guard the whole back line.They may be slow,but between the two of them,they can guard it completelly.

User avatar
Banedon
Round Table Knight
Round Table Knight
Posts: 1825
Joined: 06 Jan 2006

Unread postby Banedon » 14 Dec 2006, 10:42

But of course,killing of that angel,and halfing those paladins is nothing important,really.Why would you care?
Do you really believe your Blood Furies can kill half your opponent's Paladins in a hit? Of course if your opponent brings one Angel to the battlefield I have nothing to say.
Silly me for missunderstanding you that furries arent killers because they are always the first to be targeted and killed,when you were actually saying that they arent killers because they arent always the first to be targeted and killed
Great. I hereby classify Zombies as killers because they're never targetted and killed.

Somehow you just don't get it. The Blood Furies do not deal too high damage. Therefore they are not killers and therefore they are not the first to be targetted and killed. Sigh.
And how many blackies were in those battles?Did they completelly overshadow the furries with their massive numbers?
Zero. Why? If I fight a battle against Dungeon without Black Dragons the Blood Furies will certainly be targetted soon. That's not because they are killers, that's because the rest of Dungeon's army is generally even less dangerous (aside from Grim Raiders).
You are right,they wont survive,but they will deal a massive punch before that.Enough for you to win,and that is what matters in the end.
I contest 'massive punch'. Late-game Blood Furies do not deal insignificant damage but it is hardly what you can call 'massive'.
So what if that rider is lower priority?If you increase your furries stack by another 10,that gives you another 160 hit points your enemy has to kill while you are firing your spells.Plus,they can attack without puttint themselves in danger of retaliation,unlike the riders,so they will add to your damage output as well.

As for the resources,you are the one saying that you cannot flag the mines,not me.I say that you can flag the mines between the attacks.Besides,dont tell me that all you used was your first four level buildings and creatures you bought only on weekly basis.
160 is totally insignificant. My Raelag can deal 2100 damage with an Empowered Implosion. Though nowhere near that level, Lethos can certainly do the same with Ice Bolt. 10 Blood Furies do not change the fact that they die in a hit.

I'm saying you cannot flag the mines because you cannot. The attacks come so fast that you have no chance of doing so. By the time you can flag them, the battle is essentially over. And yes, I survived Lethos and all the other heroes with up to Deep Hydras.
Yes it does.And it says a battle not every battle.
Right, I did something similar. Your original post gave me the impression that you can defend a castle with 10 Blood Furies and Raelag.
Id rather use my paladins to get rid of pit lords or devils or nightmares then to fight succubi guardians(which will usually be pit lords or devils,but thats not the point).For succubi Ill use griffins,and crossbowmen for the finishing blow.
That is exactly the point. The Paladin's charge accomplishes the dual purposes of stopping the Ranged fire and hitting your opponent's killer units. Again, no idea what you're trying to say.
Neither did I say that you will send them in unprotected.But even protected they still face all of the army mostly on their own.And once resurrected,they loose all the buffs.Furthermore,sometimes it is much better to rush them in and protect them after if you know youll act first,or that youll loose just one or two.It gives you another attack.
This is your sentence:
DaemianLucifer wrote: Your paladins wont get to act if you let them wait.Besides,no matter how much you wait,paladins are always going to be alone in enemys camp.Whos going to support them?Squires?Griffins?Peasants?Only angels have enough speed and power to go in quick melee with paladins,but theyll be bussy as well when they do.
Going in alone has always been 'unprotected' in my book.
No I did not.You place the raiders in between the two closer stacks.Or you use a meteor shower on the closer two stacks.
You reload the game once you see the Ranged creatures split in three stacks. I wonder what your opponents think about that. As for Meteor Shower, that's a high-level spell you're hardly going to be able to cast in week 2, especially since you're prioritizing Tactics.
To use inferno again:Pit lords to the left,succubi to the right.
Ever considered the fact that Pit Lords can cast Meteor Shower? Fireball? That it is entirely possible to place Succubi Mistresses within range of the Pit Lords?
Bad luck I guess.You cannot base on just one case.You said that lethos stayed in the castle for a week.Can you say that hell always do that?And I didnt face him in the castle.He left the castle to chase me,I took the castle back because I had logistics,then he attacked me in it.Dumb AI,I know,but what you gonna do?
Then there was the time when Shadya was minding her own business by the Ore Pits to the south and the AI ignored the castle to hunt her.
Yes,I said that with luck youll have them in front.But what if you dont?You were the one saying that youll spend a turn alining them.As for when you get lucky,I already said that furries act first,thus will at least half the cerberi.
Let's see:

1. If your Blood Furies are opposite my Cerberi at the start, I do not need to align them. Your Blood Furies get one strike, putting your statement:
DaemianLucifer wrote:No,I will be able to use another attack because you will waste a turn aligning your cerberi
as outright wrong.
2. If your Blood Furies are not opposite my Cerberi at the start, I spend one turn to align them. Once again your Blood Furies get one strike, again putting your statement as outright wrong.
3. What makes you think your Blood Furies can kil half the Cerberi in a hit?
Again,why would I do that?I preserve furries only against neutrals.Later on,I use them to punch a whole in enemy ranks,or to dispose of a dangerous stack.They do that on their first move,and die afterwards.Of course,they may survive if the opponent attacks something else,but in that case theyll continue dealing massive damage.The good thing in HV is that it focuses more on making each stack just as valuable.They may not have acomplished this everywhere,but in dungeon they came very close.
This puts your statement that
DaemianLucifer wrote: Then its you that missed the point.Furries do pack an impressive punch,and if your furries die,then you need to change your strategy.Furries survive just as master hunters or paladins.Even more than paladins,because they dont stay in enemy teritory when they strike.
as self-contradictory, and I'll point out that late in the game the Blood Furies hardly deal 'massive damage'.
Yes,and its always the furries that will act first.If they manage to occupy nightmares or cerberi long enough,they did their job.
More contradictions:

1. Nightmares act with 16 initiative, incidentally the same initiative as Blood Furies. Familiars and Cerberi aren't far behind at 13.
2. They did their job of dealing 'massive damage' by occupying Nightmares and Cerberi? Honest, when neither are dangerous killers later in the game?
Not really.The minos and hydras guard the whole back line.They may be slow,but between the two of them,they can guard it completelly.
DaemianLucifer wrote:To use inferno again:Pit lords to the left,succubi to the right.
Odd how you use Pit Lords and Succubi Mistresses not to protect each other but you do for Minotaurs and Hydras. And, with their high initiative and movement, Cerberi and Nightmares are well-endowed to perform the same hit-and-run tactics you treasure so much.

User avatar
Elvin
Round Table Hero
Round Table Hero
Posts: 5475
Joined: 27 Aug 2006

Unread postby Elvin » 14 Dec 2006, 10:59

You sure are persistent! :D Both.
I, for one, am dying to find out what colour they paint Michael's toenails.
- Metathron

User avatar
DaemianLucifer
Round Table Hero
Round Table Hero
Posts: 11282
Joined: 06 Jan 2006
Location: City 17

Unread postby DaemianLucifer » 14 Dec 2006, 18:25

Banedon wrote: Do you really believe your Blood Furies can kill half your opponent's Paladins in a hit? Of course if your opponent brings one Angel to the battlefield I have nothing to say.
They can kill cca 4-6.Ok,so I exagarated a bit,its a third.And if you have an angel,naturally Ill attack that one first,which makes furries even more valuable.
Banedon wrote: Great. I hereby classify Zombies as killers because they're never targetted and killed.

Somehow you just don't get it. The Blood Furies do not deal too high damage. Therefore they are not killers and therefore they are not the first to be targetted and killed. Sigh.
You are the one that doesnt get it.You clasiffy marksmen as killer units,yet on their first shot they do half the damage furries do,on the second shot they do the same damage furries do,if the enemy enters their range.Hunters do the same damage as furries when out of range,yet they are a level above furries,and yet you clasify them as killers.
Banedon wrote: Zero. Why? If I fight a battle against Dungeon without Black Dragons the Blood Furies will certainly be targetted soon. That's not because they are killers, that's because the rest of Dungeon's army is generally even less dangerous (aside from Grim Raiders).
Even if there were 3 dragons,furries would still be a bigger threat.
Banedon wrote: I contest 'massive punch'. Late-game Blood Furies do not deal insignificant damage but it is hardly what you can call 'massive'.
Late game druids get overshadowed by the hunters sheer numbers,yet that doesnt mean that youll use them a lot before that time comes.
Banedon wrote: 160 is totally insignificant. My Raelag can deal 2100 damage with an Empowered Implosion. Though nowhere near that level, Lethos can certainly do the same with Ice Bolt. 10 Blood Furies do not change the fact that they die in a hit.
Depends on what you have.That 160 may well be what lets your furries survive a round more.Besides,if you force lethos to cast a 27 mana cost implosion instead of a 7 mana cost lightning bolt,you did a significant thing.I dont remember him having some extremelly big knowledge.
Banedon wrote: I'm saying you cannot flag the mines because you cannot. The attacks come so fast that you have no chance of doing so. By the time you can flag them, the battle is essentially over. And yes, I survived Lethos and all the other heroes with up to Deep Hydras.
To flag the mines,and return the creatures you need 3 days tops.You are saying that you had enough time to reinforce your troops(meaning the begining of the week),yet you dont have 2,3 days to spare? :|
Banedon wrote: Right, I did something similar. Your original post gave me the impression that you can defend a castle with 10 Blood Furies and Raelag.
Yes you can,against few of the attacks,not all of them.Hence where you can get those extra 3 days to flag the mines.
Banedon wrote: This is your sentence:
DaemianLucifer wrote: Your paladins wont get to act if you let them wait.Besides,no matter how much you wait,paladins are always going to be alone in enemys camp.Whos going to support them?Squires?Griffins?Peasants?Only angels have enough speed and power to go in quick melee with paladins,but theyll be bussy as well when they do.
Going in alone has always been 'unprotected' in my book.
You were the one saying that I wont cast spells on them,thus protecting them with spells.I was sayig that they wont always be supported by other melee units.Supported and protected are different in my book.
Banedon wrote: Ever considered the fact that Pit Lords can cast Meteor Shower? Fireball? That it is entirely possible to place Succubi Mistresses within range of the Pit Lords?
I never said its imposible,I said that it will not always be the case.
Banedon wrote: Let's see:

1. If your Blood Furies are opposite my Cerberi at the start, I do not need to align them. Your Blood Furies get one strike, putting your statement:
DaemianLucifer wrote:No,I will be able to use another attack because you will waste a turn aligning your cerberi
as outright wrong.
Um,when I mentioned that youd have to be lucky to place your cerberi in front of my furries,you said "I have no idea what youre talking about,I said Ill align my cerberi".
Banedon wrote: 2. If your Blood Furies are not opposite my Cerberi at the start, I spend one turn to align them. Once again your Blood Furies get one strike, again putting your statement as outright wrong.
No,if you waste a turn to get your cerberi in range Ill have 2 attacks,one aimed at one of your other units,one at the crberi.And considering that youll gate first,I may even get a third attack if Im lucky.
Banedon wrote: 3. What makes you think your Blood Furies can kil half the Cerberi in a hit?
True,I simplified it.Theyll kill ~35% of them.But then again,you started the simplification by saying that the remaining cerberi can destroy my furries in a punch,yet they can kill the same ~35% of furries.
Banedon wrote: This puts your statement that
DaemianLucifer wrote: Then its you that missed the point.Furries do pack an impressive punch,and if your furries die,then you need to change your strategy.Furries survive just as master hunters or paladins.Even more than paladins,because they dont stay in enemy teritory when they strike.
as self-contradictory, and I'll point out that late in the game the Blood Furies hardly deal 'massive damage'.
Really?How so?You were the one saying that furries die against neutrals,not me.Of course they day in the final battle,but so do all of the units.No one is invunerable then.
Banedon wrote: More contradictions:

1. Nightmares act with 16 initiative, incidentally the same initiative as Blood Furies. Familiars and Cerberi aren't far behind at 13.
Ok,true,I misscalculated there.Its only 50% of the time against nightmares.
Banedon wrote: 2. They did their job of dealing 'massive damage' by occupying Nightmares and Cerberi? Honest, when neither are dangerous killers later in the game?
Oh really?Then why did you classify them as such?And no,they dont do their job of dealing massive damage by occupying these,but they do the job of occupying these by doing their job of dealing massive damage first,then distracting them afterwards.
Banedon wrote: Odd how you use Pit Lords and Succubi Mistresses not to protect each other but you do for Minotaurs and Hydras. And, with their high initiative and movement, Cerberi and Nightmares are well-endowed to perform the same hit-and-run tactics you treasure so much.
I didnt say I was the one that will place the stacks like that.I always do place these two next to each other(unless the opponent has some nasty fireball,that is).
Last edited by DaemianLucifer on 15 Dec 2006, 04:37, edited 1 time in total.

Khelavaster
Peasant
Peasant
Posts: 80
Joined: 06 Jan 2006

Unread postby Khelavaster » 14 Dec 2006, 19:05

Furries?

User avatar
DaemianLucifer
Round Table Hero
Round Table Hero
Posts: 11282
Joined: 06 Jan 2006
Location: City 17

Unread postby DaemianLucifer » 14 Dec 2006, 19:07

Blood furries.

Khelavaster
Peasant
Peasant
Posts: 80
Joined: 06 Jan 2006

Unread postby Khelavaster » 14 Dec 2006, 19:52

That's a funny image. :D

User avatar
Banedon
Round Table Knight
Round Table Knight
Posts: 1825
Joined: 06 Jan 2006

Unread postby Banedon » 15 Dec 2006, 00:23

@Elvin - I'll take that as a compliment :)
They can kill cca 4-6.Ok,so I exagarated a bit,its a third.And if you have an angel,naturally Ill attack that one first,which makes furries even more valuable.
Tell me, how many Blood Furies are required to kill 4-6 Paladins in a hit? I'm not sure about the Heroes 5 system and I'll use the Heroes 3 system to calculate:

Blood Fury attack = 5
Paladin defense = 24
Difference in attack / defense = 19 -> Blood Furies deal 5% damage
Blood Fury damage = 5-7
Damage they must do after reduction = 400 - 600
Damage they must do before reduction = 8000 - 12000
Blood Furies required = ca 400 - 600

I find these numbers to be unbelievable and would test them out myself in the Editor if I knew how to operate it. But then they give a magnitude of just how much damage you need to inflict and just how many Blood Furies you must have. Even halved, 200-300 Blood Furies are nigh impossible to reach per your own words.

I did not factor in Attack / Defense in this calculations, but it should not change much. Knights specialize in defense anyway.
You are the one that doesnt get it.You clasiffy marksmen as killer units,yet on their first shot they do half the damage furries do,on the second shot they do the same damage furries do,if the enemy enters their range.Hunters do the same damage as furries when out of range,yet they are a level above furries,and yet you clasify them as killers.
On the other hand, Marksmen target any unit on the battlefield, they cannot be blocked like Blood Furies nor do they need to be aligned. Master Hunters are a whole deal more powerful than Blood Furies. You've looked only at their damage. Have you considered the fact that Master Hunters not only have the two advantages Marksmen possess, they also have Warding Arrow AND they will be getting shots at full damage, since Sylvan is peerless at ranged combat except possibly against Academy and so they must be rushed at?
Even if there were 3 dragons,furries would still be a bigger threat.
And how many Blood Furies do you suppose there will be?
Late game druids get overshadowed by the hunters sheer numbers,yet that doesnt mean that youll use them a lot before that time comes.
Your words are self-contradictory. Druids get overshadowed by Hunters later in the game, and yet you say it doesn't mean that you'll use them a lot. Why would you use a creature a lot that's getting overshadowed?

But I digress, and let's focus on the specifics. Druids do not get overshadowed by Hunters until very very late in the game, since they will still be able to cast Stone Spikes and do their normal attacks instead of Lightning Bolt. You'll use Druids a lot before that time comes - during which they more than deal enough damage to classify them as 'killers'.
Depends on what you have.That 160 may well be what lets your furries survive a round more.Besides,if you force lethos to cast a 27 mana cost implosion instead of a 7 mana cost lightning bolt,you did a significant thing.I dont remember him having some extremelly big knowledge.
1. Do you honestly, truthfully believe that you will have enough Blood Furies to force Lethos to cast Implosion instead of Lightning Bolt?
2. Do you honestly, truthfully believe that you will have enough Blood Furies to survive a Lightning Bolt? Don't forget, Lethos is a level 22 Warlock.
To flag the mines,and return the creatures you need 3 days tops.You are saying that you had enough time to reinforce your troops(meaning the begining of the week),yet you dont have 2,3 days to spare?
Buying creatures take 0 days. Running outside does not. And it's not the problem of not having 2-3 days to spare outside, it is that you cannot afford to go outside because you get hunted. You conveniently evaded my next example that Shadya gets hunted because she's by the Ore Pits.
Yes you can,against few of the attacks,not all of them.Hence where you can get those extra 3 days to flag the mines.
You are playing a different map. Mine, the attacks were so relentless that I couldn't move out for more than a week.
You were the one saying that I wont cast spells on them,thus protecting them with spells.I was sayig that they wont always be supported by other melee units.Supported and protected are different in my book.
DaemianLucifer wrote:Your paladins wont get to act if you let them wait.Besides,no matter how much you wait,paladins are always going to be alone in enemys camp.Whos going to support them?Squires?Griffins?Peasants?Only angels have enough speed and power to go in quick melee with paladins,but theyll be bussy as well when they do.
And, you can only cast one blessing a turn. Having another melee stack beside is rather more valuable than having blessings.
I never said its imposible,I said that it will not always be the case.
Your 'opponent with merrit' is abject at Heroes 5 then.
Um,when I mentioned that youd have to be lucky to place your cerberi in front of my furries,you said "I have no idea what youre talking about,I said Ill align my cerberi".
Listen carefully.

1. If your Blood Furies are opposite my Cerberi at the start such that I do not need to align them, my Cerberi can hit the Blood Furies without having to move.
2. If your Blood Furies are not opposite my Cerberi at the start such that I need to align them, your Blood Furies cannot hit my Cerberi before I reposition them.
No,if you waste a turn to get your cerberi in range Ill have 2 attacks,one aimed at one of your other units,one at the crberi.And considering that youll gate first,I may even get a third attack if Im lucky.
I see what you mean. Irrelevant. Like I said, this is the final battle and therefore I will lose units. The Blood Furies have high initiative and this will be a consequence of that. Your two attacks mean little if they're the prime target though, since they'll be on the front line and totally vulnerable to assault. The charge will manifest itself. Not all the Blood Furies will die, but a great deal of them will if you do not move them - evidence of 'finesse'. If it were the Paladins there instead they would quite happily take the hits (if the Inferno player were fool enough to try anything similar; Haven < Inferno at Ranged combat), luring the Nightmares and Cerberi into Marksmen range and killing them.
True,I simplified it.Theyll kill ~35% of them.But then again,you started the simplification by saying that the remaining cerberi can destroy my furries in a punch,yet they can kill the same ~35% of furries.
Where did I say that? I just - again - put your arguments that Furies never die into doubt.
Really?How so?You were the one saying that furries die against neutrals,not me.Of course they day in the final battle,but so do all of the units.No one is invunerable then.
I knew what you were going to say and had my answer ready. Observe:
DaemianLucifer wrote: Then its you that missed the point.Furries do pack an impressive punch,and if your furries die,then you need to change your strategy.Furries survive just as master hunters or paladins.Even more than paladins,because they dont stay in enemy teritory when they strike.
If you're losing Paladins - Paladins, of all creatures! - to neutrals even the worst player will agree that you're worse than him.
Oh really?Then why did you classify them as such?And no,they dont do their job of dealing massive damage by occupying these,but they do the job of occupying these by doing their job of dealing massive damage first,then distracting them afterwards.
You spend your killer units to occupy your opponent's non-killer units? That's amazing. Even the worst worst player will agree that using Black Dragons to 'occupy' Zombies and Spectres is an extremely stupid move.
I didnt say I was the one that will place the stacks like that.I always do place these two next to each other(unless the opponent has some nasty fireball,that is).
Hello! Look carefully at the post I made:
Banedon wrote:You have no common sense then. Tell me, who places their slow units far from the Ranged creatures where the Paladins are likely to be?
Paladins are Haven creatures. Since when does Haven lug around deadly Destructive school spells? Again, you would be foolish not to place the Pit Lords and Succubi Mistresses close to each other - such that if the Paladins charge them, the Pit Lord's high melee damage will exact a deadly toll. If this is what you did - by your own words of 'I always do place these two next to each other', this puts your statement that:
DaemianLucifer wrote:To use inferno again:Pit lords to the left,succubi to the right.
as completely wrong...again.

User avatar
DaemianLucifer
Round Table Hero
Round Table Hero
Posts: 11282
Joined: 06 Jan 2006
Location: City 17

Unread postby DaemianLucifer » 15 Dec 2006, 04:57

Banedon wrote: Tell me, how many Blood Furies are required to kill 4-6 Paladins in a hit? I'm not sure about the Heroes 5 system and I'll use the Heroes 3 system to calculate:

Blood Fury attack = 5
Paladin defense = 24
Difference in attack / defense = 19 -> Blood Furies deal 5% damage
Blood Fury damage = 5-7
Damage they must do after reduction = 400 - 600
Damage they must do before reduction = 8000 - 12000
Blood Furies required = ca 400 - 600

I find these numbers to be unbelievable and would test them out myself in the Editor if I knew how to operate it. But then they give a magnitude of just how much damage you need to inflict and just how many Blood Furies you must have. Even halved, 200-300 Blood Furies are nigh impossible to reach per your own words.

I did not factor in Attack / Defense in this calculations, but it should not change much. Knights specialize in defense anyway.
:| I dont think that even HIII works like that.The attack/defense both as primary and secondary skills negated,I used a 5 week calculation,the example you provided with 18 paladins.
Banedon wrote: On the other hand, Marksmen target any unit on the battlefield, they cannot be blocked like Blood Furies nor do they need to be aligned. Master Hunters are a whole deal more powerful than Blood Furies. You've looked only at their damage. Have you considered the fact that Master Hunters not only have the two advantages Marksmen possess, they also have Warding Arrow AND they will be getting shots at full damage, since Sylvan is peerless at ranged combat except possibly against Academy and so they must be rushed at?
Wait,why do hunters get the shots at full damage?Thy suffer the same ranged penalty as the crossbowmen.
Banedon wrote: And how many Blood Furies do you suppose there will be?
Again,considering its a 5th week,around 40.
Banedon wrote: Your words are self-contradictory. Druids get overshadowed by Hunters later in the game, and yet you say it doesn't mean that you'll use them a lot. Why would you use a creature a lot that's getting overshadowed?
Missed the key part:
DaemianLucifer wrote: Late game druids get overshadowed by the hunters sheer numbers,yet that doesnt mean that youll use them a lot before that time comes.
Banedon wrote: But I digress, and let's focus on the specifics. Druids do not get overshadowed by Hunters until very very late in the game, since they will still be able to cast Stone Spikes and do their normal attacks instead of Lightning Bolt. You'll use Druids a lot before that time comes - during which they more than deal enough damage to classify them as 'killers'.
Same for furries.You are using them early game,and can be usefull in late game as well.
Banedon wrote: 1. Do you honestly, truthfully believe that you will have enough Blood Furies to force Lethos to cast Implosion instead of Lightning Bolt?
2. Do you honestly, truthfully believe that you will have enough Blood Furies to survive a Lightning Bolt? Don't forget, Lethos is a level 22 Warlock.
You need around 35 furries.If you have two towns,that gives you 10 furries on the begining of the week,so youd have to preserve more than 25 furries in the previous battles.Highly luck dependable.But I forgot if he has the lightning boosting artifact.I know he has the slippers though.
Banedon wrote: Buying creatures take 0 days. Running outside does not. And it's not the problem of not having 2-3 days to spare outside, it is that you cannot afford to go outside because you get hunted. You conveniently evaded my next example that Shadya gets hunted because she's by the Ore Pits.
Buying troops also requires a new week to start.And as for your example,I ignored it because,like for the before example,bad luck.It didnt happen to me.And neither did lethos staying in town for a week happen to me either.
Banedon wrote: You are playing a different map. Mine, the attacks were so relentless that I couldn't move out for more than a week.
Yes,the first 7 attacks come daily,I remember now.As for the flaging of mines....Honestly,I forgot which mines I flagged in that week,but I think it were the northwestern ones.
Banedon wrote: Your 'opponent with merrit' is abject at Heroes 5 then.
You asked for when such a situation is possible,not if it would be an opponent of merrit.Same as your "I can kill all of your furries even if I have to loose the whole army because of it" example.So dont attack my shoddy examples if you gave them first.
Banedon wrote: 1. If your Blood Furies are opposite my Cerberi at the start such that I do not need to align them, my Cerberi can hit the Blood Furies without having to move.
Yes,and like I said zillions of times before,my furries will strike first in this case,thus your cerberi wont "kill all the furries" like you said earlier.
Banedon wrote: 2. If your Blood Furies are not opposite my Cerberi at the start such that I need to align them, your Blood Furies cannot hit my Cerberi before I reposition them.
I said theyll attack another stack first,while the cerberi are moving,then the cerberi.
Banedon wrote: I see what you mean. Irrelevant.
Irrelevant?Then why did you say that youll render furries useless with cerberi when its obvious you wont.You know,now that I think about it,I might not even touch them with the furries.Attacking the lords and comboing them with raiders is much better.
Banedon wrote: Like I said, this is the final battle and therefore I will lose units. The Blood Furies have high initiative and this will be a consequence of that. Your two attacks mean little if they're the prime target though, since they'll be on the front line and totally vulnerable to assault. The charge will manifest itself. Not all the Blood Furies will die, but a great deal of them will if you do not move them - evidence of 'finesse'.
Wait,what?Dying is evidence of finnese? :|
Banedon wrote: Where did I say that? I just - again - put your arguments that Furies never die into doubt.
No,you said that youll render them useless with cerberi.Note that even if one furry survives,its not useless.In low numbers they indeed are finesse units(raider combo),but on their first(and usually second)attack,they are killers.
Banedon wrote: I knew what you were going to say and had my answer ready. Observe:
DaemianLucifer wrote: Then its you that missed the point.Furries do pack an impressive punch,and if your furries die,then you need to change your strategy.Furries survive just as master hunters or paladins.Even more than paladins,because they dont stay in enemy teritory when they strike.
If you're losing Paladins - Paladins, of all creatures! - to neutrals even the worst player will agree that you're worse than him.
That quote was aimed at you saying that furries die quicker than hunters and paladins,which is not the case.Against neutrals,neither die.Against a hero,they die at the same rate.
Banedon wrote: You spend your killer units to occupy your opponent's non-killer units?
Again,you classified them as killers.
Banedon wrote: Hello! Look carefully at the post I made:
Banedon wrote:You have no common sense then. Tell me, who places their slow units far from the Ranged creatures where the Paladins are likely to be?
.
.
.
as completely wrong...again.
And what about demons and imps?If one of those is on the opposite side they cannot reach your paladins,but can reach your griffons,especially if you are unlucky for them to lend in the middle of enemy teritory(happened to me quite often).

User avatar
Gaidal Cain
Round Table Hero
Round Table Hero
Posts: 6972
Joined: 26 Nov 2005
Location: Solna

Unread postby Gaidal Cain » 15 Dec 2006, 07:30

Banedon wrote:Tell me, how many Blood Furies are required to kill 4-6 Paladins in a hit? I'm not sure about the Heroes 5 system and I'll use the Heroes 3 system to calculate:

Blood Fury attack = 5
Paladin defense = 24
Difference in attack / defense = 19 -> Blood Furies deal 5% damage
Blood Fury damage = 5-7
Damage they must do after reduction = 400 - 600
Damage they must do before reduction = 8000 - 12000
Blood Furies required = ca 400 - 600
As DL said, that will hardly be the case- high defense doesn't work that way, or else the furies would do zero damage against a Knight with higher defense than the Walrock's attack...
I did not factor in Attack / Defense in this calculations, but it should not change much. Knights specialize in defense anyway.
And Warlock's secondary skill is attack, so it will probably be a small difference, at least if walrocks has Enlightenment and the knight doesn't.
You don't want to make enemies in Nuclear Engineering. -- T. Pratchett

User avatar
winterfate
Round Table Hero
Round Table Hero
Posts: 6191
Joined: 26 Nov 2006
Location: Puerto Rico

Unread postby winterfate » 15 Dec 2006, 07:41

:disagree: Somebody make this stop... :disagree:.

After around 3 days (or so) this discussion is still going on. And, normally I wouldn't mind. However, it has become a vicious cycle (Blood Furies - Paladins...Paladins - Blood Furies). In the end, what will it prove?

Blood Furies do a lot of killing and a lot of dying...so do Paladins. The key is knowing when to leave your Furies out of battle to keep them from dying (so they can accumulate for the final battle). Granted, I stink with Dungeon, and keeping the Furies alive is a chore :D.

Um.... :beg:, would it help if I sayed "please stop this insanity?"
The Round Table's birthday list!
Proud creator of Caladont 2.0!
You need to take the pain, learn from it and get back on that bike... - stefan
Sometimes the hearts most troubled make the sweetest melodies... - winterfate

User avatar
DaemianLucifer
Round Table Hero
Round Table Hero
Posts: 11282
Joined: 06 Jan 2006
Location: City 17

Unread postby DaemianLucifer » 15 Dec 2006, 10:02

winterfate wrote: After around 3 days (or so) this discussion is still going on. And, normally I wouldn't mind. However, it has become a vicious cycle (Blood Furies - Paladins...Paladins - Blood Furies). In the end, what will it prove?
I stopped proving anything long ago,and now Im arguing just because I like arguing :devil:
winterfate wrote: Um.... :beg:, would it help if I sayed "please stop this insanity?"
No,but I like when they beg :devil: :devious:


Return to “Heroes V-VI”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 45 guests