The most USELESS spell

[Warlock]

Voted Wasp Swarm. But here are my thoughts:

Curse of the Netherworld/Word of Light: Absolutely horrible spells. They would be up there, but I still feel Wasp Swarm is worse. At the very least, it does mass damage to everything - maybe you could use it to clear a bunch of phantoms or something.

Fist of wrath: Personally I don't feel this belongs on the list at all. Fist of Wrath is king of useless later on, but then, so is Eldrich Arrow and other low-level spells. At early levels, Fist of Wrath is a decent damage spell. Esp. at the point where it does more damage than your Hero's normal attack. Also, some creatures get this, in which case it can be useful. For example, for Archmagi who don't want to shoot through a stack of their own units.

Wasp swarm: I don't get this spell. Almost no damage, and the whole "slows movement speed" is worthless. First off, it's for one turn. Ooo boy, what a great use of your hero's turn. Second, Slow is *so* much better, plus you can get it in Mass form with Dark Magic skill. But even in the Summoning school, you could just as easily conjur up a pheonix or phantom image or something to "delay" that unit (i.e. at the very least, the AI will always and players will usually attack summoned stuff first to get rid of it).

Firewall: I understand this being on here, but it's not that useless. It can be used to protect your shooters, which is pretty freakin' useful as it is. It can also slow down stacks from getting to your side in one turn (i.e. Blood Maidens), etc.

Armageddon: Useless, but hey, at least it does massive damage. I agree with the "sore loser" sentiment

[mr.hackcrag]

A thought occured:Word light affects undead and demons,just like in HIV?So infernopolis is still there

Isn't it funny how the only idea they took from H4 happens to be the one everybody hates.

[Metathron]

Re: Wasp Swarm

Why doesn't it say in the spell description that the spell decreases initiative, in addition to dealing direct damage (meagre though it may be)?

And which version of this spell do sprites cast? I seem to remember that when I cast wasp swarm using sprites it only dealt damage without affecting the target creature's initiative at all, so it would appear sprites cast the very basic type of wasp swarm, dealing pathetic damage. I wonder, why do sprites, a creature with no-retaliation, need such a useless spell in their arsenal, one that deals much less damage than their normal attack to begin with?

[ThunderTitan]

In v1.0 WS always reduced init, so it was good on Sprites. Overpowered even.

[Sir William S Titan]

Probably if they have to move closer to the enemy before the attack. So, cast the spell, have the enemy move closer, then attack. Though, even this way, it's not of much use.

[Sir William S Titan]

In v1.0 WS always reduced init, so it was good on Sprites. Overpowered even.

I don't see this effect now. I see nothing. So, I stick with what I said.

[ThunderTitan]

I don't see this effect now. I see nothing. So, I stick with what I said.

He asked what was the point, and that was the point before WS got neutered and became kinda pointless on Sprites.

[Sir William S Titan]

Yeah. I suppose. I haven't played v1.0, so I'd have to go by what is said of it. I'm only playing it now because I've borrowed it from my uncle. Currently playing on v1.2. On part 3 of the Nature Campaigne. Won't advance in version until after I complete nature, if I decide to advance at all, since I plan on returning it to him after I complete the order campaigne.

But enough of this. Back on topic.

[DaemianLucifer]

Err,I never saw the initiative backing in 1.0 without expert summon magic.

[Sir_Toejam]

Err,I never saw the initiative backing in 1.0 without expert summon magic.

ok, so what about changing the wasp swarm spell on the sprites so it is cast at expert level?

it would essentially double the damage the spell does when the sprites cast it, and also give intiative decrease.

that would make sprites far more dangerous.

maybe controll it by only having enough spell points to cast it once (unless hero has a feat to lower caster cost, or archmages are present along with the sprites).

so make it cast at expert level, and lower the sp to 8 instead of 10.

btw, i notice the same pattern (no effect until expert level) with the confusion spell.

evidently the % affected stat is broke in the hard-coded engine. I tried monkeying with it to increase the base, and even add a tie-in to power level, but there was no effect.

essentially, unless the base value is "1", it has no effect.

I actually changed the confusion spell in my games so that it gets the 100% value at advanced (that way, it's only worthless for two levels instead of 3).

[Shauku]

Was it in beta then? But I do remember. Splitting Sprites into 5-7 stacks. Hunters & Hero &Druids got many many shots through before the enemy even moved...

[Sir_Toejam]

actually, i just took a look at the data files for sprites, and see that they cast wasp swarm at a skill level of NONE.

so that would explain why the wasp swarm spell is both so weak and has no initiative effect.

can someone confirm the "no effect unless cast on expert level"?

here's the way wasp swarm is SUPPOSED to work:

skill level; Effect:

none 10+2(power); no initiative effect

basic 20+4(power); 20% decrease in initiative

advanced 30+6(power); 40% decrease

expert 40+8(power); 60%

so theoretically, simply changing the skill level to "basic" on the sprites would seem a good thing to do.

EDIT:

ok, so i just did some experiments, and wasp swarm works exactly like it is supposed to (just never used it enough before to notice).

I changed the wasp swarm spell on the sprites to basic level, and it does now do a one-turn initiative shift of 20% (works just like the ice perk does for destructive magic, but doesn't change the icon graphic of the stack when you use it on them like the ice or lightning skills do).

In fact, the change is perhaps a tad overpowered early on, both damage wise and initiative wise. However, I made a mod out of it and will upload it momentarily.

example:

a stack of 10 sprites that cast wasp swarm now does 40 damage, and lowers init by 20%.

before, that would have been 20 damage and no initiative change.

I'm also making a different mod to change the way the wasp swarm spell itself works, adding a bit more damage and a 10% initiative reduction to the "none" skill level.

that way, if most think giving sprites basic level casting is too overpowered, they can use the other mod and the sprites will then at least get about a 40% boost in damage, and a small init reduction.

...

done. anybody interested can grab either or both in the mods section.

[DaemianLucifer]

Was it in beta then? But I do remember. Splitting Sprites into 5-7 stacks. Hunters & Hero &Druids got many many shots through before the enemy even moved...

Yes,the beta sprites were a murder.

[Arqane]

Just a general post since it's now on the topic here. One reason I tend to dislike mods, is that they all have a tendency to become overpowered, no matter how good the intentions are of the people. I also respect people for making them, and doing fun stuff with the game, but unfortunately they always ruin my fun of the game because each mod gets more powerful than the last. I realize it's a choice to use them, I just wanted to let you know what effect it can have, though .

Bringing it back to the subject, if Wasp Swarm was so underpowered, then why would adding even just basic level make a tier 1 creature so overpowered? Sprites are already the best tier 1 upgrade available.

[Jolly Joker]

The mod not only makes them overpowered for Sylvans, it makes them hell to fight as neutrals. They are level ones and not supposed to cast the crap out of an early army attacking the local sawmill - which is what will happen.

[asandir]

well, you can't have your cake and eat it too

i use the devil/archdevil mod (well, changed the move to 8/9 for them myself) and i prefer it that way .... sure - makes them a great deal more irritating when fighting inferno, but thems the breaks, i will try the wasp swarm mod i think

[Sir_Toejam]

I've experimented a bit with both the mod to the sprite and the mod changing the base level of the wasp swarm spell, and find I like the change to the wasp swarm spell a little more.

it does just enough damage so that it actually works as a ranged attack (a little less than 50% more damage, depending on stack size - it tapers off as the stack size gets larger, as per usual), and the 10% initiative reduction can be just enough to allow one of your ranged units to get a shot in before an enemy unit gets to attack (works about half the time). as a neutral stack (of sprites only), the initiative reduction caused by the sprites means little to your own army.

certainly NOT overpowered.

...and of course it's no longer a "completely useless spell" for your hero if you don't have levels in summoning magic.

so, I'd recommend the change to the spell itself for those worried about "uber sprites".

just FYI, the two mods do not overlap; no problem using both just in case anybody was wondering.

[Sir_Toejam]

They are level ones and not supposed to cast the crap out of an early army attacking the local sawmill - which is what will happen.

It's not clear to me... did you actually try it out, or are you just speculating?

[Jolly Joker]

Your mod doubled the spell damage output for 10 Sprites AND allowed a 20% Initiative reduction. You attack a Sawmill with 2 stacks of 10 Sprites each. Before they would do 20 Wasp Swarm damage each - with the mod they do 40 each AND are reducing the Initiative of the attacked troops. A beginner army of Haven, for example, will get murdered, as it was in the beta.
On the other hand Sylvans will have a much easier going with Sprites then.

[asandir]

sounds good to me