Most useful no retaliation unit

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What is the most useful no retaliation unit?

Rakshasa Rani/Rakshasa Raja
4
11%
Blood fury/Blood maiden
13
36%
Hydra/Deep Hydra
6
17%
Vampire/Vampire Lord
13
36%
 
Total votes: 36

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Cyrox
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Most useful no retaliation unit

Postby Cyrox » Sep 30 2006, 10:15

I was just wondering. Alot of people tend to stress about blood furies being very powerful, but there are other no retaliation units as well.

Blood fury has the best initiative and speed out of all of the non-retaliation units, but may not necessary be the most useful.

Anyone care to share strategies that you used in conjunction with your fav non-retaliation units?

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DaemianLucifer
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Postby DaemianLucifer » Sep 30 2006, 10:37

Voted for the furries.And you forgot pixies there.Cerberi are my second best,with hydras third(with TA,of course).

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Jolly Joker
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Postby Jolly Joker » Sep 30 2006, 10:47

I certainly don't want to spill the fun here, but there are definitely more no-retal units:
Pixies/Sprites
Imp Griffins' Battle Dive is a very useful no-retal attack that even does double damage.
Wraiths special attack.
Ghosts and Spectres "may" have a no-retal attack
War Dancers are not far away from no-retal either-
Air Elementals as neutrals
Lastly those that may lead to non-retal attacks:
Conscripts
Footmen/Squires
HellChargers/Nightmares

Edit: Ghosts/Spectres are pretty cool: if the retal doesn't hit it's a non-retal attack that uses up the retal which is even more effective than a non-retal attack.

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okrane
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Postby okrane » Sep 30 2006, 10:55

Furies are the most useful IMO... because early game they're all you need... in conjunction with DD spells...

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Postby Campaigner » Sep 30 2006, 11:17

When choosing your option, you should consider the question at hand and how the rest of the army and hero will be.

I'll say Deep Hydra is the most useful one because that's the only unit that Warlocks need to win battles with NO losses.

You only enter battle with Deep Hydras and blast the enemy with a few empowered spells. Then when the enemy only got 3 archers or so left you just press wait with the Deep Hydras and when they've regenerated fully you kill the last enemy units.

To optimise this tactic you would do well to invest in defense (stats and skill).


Blood Furies is second because they're needed in the beginning.


Third is Vampire Lords since they cross the field very quickly to engage enemy archers and to spare your ArchLiches and Skeleton Archers. With the right skills they will engage enemy archers in their first move which is invaluable.


Rakshasa Ranis is useful since they are a fast, powerful, allaround creature that does it's job well.


Sprites are nigh last not because they're bad. On the contrary, they're the ultimate lvl 1 creature! But in comparsion with the opposition in terms of usefulness and with their own army they're not that useful.


Cerberus are dead last since they simply do not last to do two attacks....and the hero leading them wont have Ressurection so you will lost them if you charge across the field.
Last edited by Campaigner on Sep 30 2006, 22:12, edited 1 time in total.

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Jolly Joker
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Postby Jolly Joker » Sep 30 2006, 11:53

Last time I checked Cerberi were just as fast as Blood Furies.
Your basic weekly production of 8 Cerberi will give you 32-48 damage, delivered with speed 8 and Init 13 at 120 HPs.
Your basic weekly production of 5 Blood Furies will give you 25-35 damage, which you can modify due to a +1 in attack to 26.25-36.75 delievered at speed 8 and Init 16 at 80 HPs. You can modiy the 80 HPs to 82 or so due to the +1 defense and you can modify damage once again with 16/13 due to the higher init which will bring damage to 32-45.
Now see the possible run-back of the Furies and the possible double and even triple attack of the Cerberi, with the Furies costing 175 and the Cerberi 160 apiece and I fail to see much of a difference in terms of usefulness.

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wimfrits
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Postby wimfrits » Sep 30 2006, 14:14

Jolly Joker wrote:and I fail to see much of a difference in terms of usefulness.


With their combination of high speed and initiative, Furies are the best "run around endlessly" units of the game. A warlock can win most battles against melee units with 1 fury. (Not that it is much fun)
That says enough about their usefullness.

When blocked with fodder armies, furies can function like ranged units, especially against large creatures. With the difference of being highly mobile, a feature ranged units normally lack.
Are you suggesting coconuts migrate?

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Jolly Joker
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Postby Jolly Joker » Sep 30 2006, 14:29

Well, I know that.
However, the Cerberi are actually as effective avec Gating and a bit of skill. Sure, they don't run back, but they don't need to most of the time due to having enough gating fodder and shields. The Dark spells aren't too bad either to support them.
Considering the alternatives the doggies are as useful for the Inferno as are the Furies for Dungeon. 1.3 resource demands don't make it easier to utilize them, though.

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arturchix
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Postby arturchix » Sep 30 2006, 15:07

Without much doubt, blood furies. They've got no retaliation ability, are one of the fastest units in the game and have a good initiative.
Last time I checked Cerberi were just as fast as Blood Furies.
Your basic weekly production of 8 Cerberi will give you 32-48 damage, delivered with speed 8 and Init 13 at 120 HPs.
Your basic weekly production of 5 Blood Furies will give you 25-35 damage, which you can modify due to a +1 in attack to 26.25-36.75 delievered at speed 8 and Init 16 at 80 HPs. You can modiy the 80 HPs to 82 or so due to the +1 defense and you can modify damage once again with 16/13 due to the higher init which will bring damage to 32-45.
Now see the possible run-back of the Furies and the possible double and even triple attack of the Cerberi, with the Furies costing 175 and the Cerberi 160 apiece and I fail to see much of a difference in terms of usefulness.

I think that exactly run-back makes blood furies better than cerberi - often if you decide to attack with your cerberi, they are as good as lost when it's opponent's turn. Blood furies don't have such problems and can act as ranged attackers, as Wimfrits already noted. Of course, a lot depends on how big are both armies, the placement of troops and amount of stacks. The more stacks, the better for cerberi (and hydras).

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LordErtz
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Postby LordErtz » Sep 30 2006, 15:19

cerberus dominate...they can cross the battlefield at the start and destroy up to 3 stacks, and with morale and luck, they are even deadlier. Gate them in first, then have fun with the image!

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maltz
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Postby maltz » Sep 30 2006, 22:11

Based on SP campaign, Cerberi is "the Inferno army." Without it Agrael sinks to the bottom.

Blood fury, on the other hand, dies so quickly in bigger battles. And which warlock depends on an army?

Definitely vote Cerberi.

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Postby Idleness2 » Sep 30 2006, 22:14

I shouldve looked at the numbers b4 posting this, cause in my experience
There is some degree of randomness, and theres some creatures that might move before a blood fury or it might be after, and cerebrus nightmares and paladins are the ones I can think of there. (sprites and imperial griffins are ALWAYS moving first)
But then theres a lot of things in he game that can effect initiative, like artifacts, and as dungeon i ALWAYS buy those + init rings if i see them in artifact merchant, even if i have skip a week of creature gen. to do it, so this maybe effects my memory, dunno. Often it annoys me, that I cant get both the dragon bone greaves and the windstrider boots, I usually prefer the +1 speed boots cause I dont tend to go for the aura of swiftness build, prefer defense.

What it means to be 'useful' i guess is a little open to interpretation. obviously 30 rashkas have an advantage over 30 furies, cause they are teir 6 units...And its true the deep hydras (but even better, vampire lords) are great for killing neutral stacks for zero casualties... and furies totally suck when yr attacking (or defending) a castle, while vampire lords are quite happy...and furies die tragically fast...so they are not exactly the most versatile well rounded units or anything, but I voted for them anyway cause working with grim raiders, they are so overwhelming powerful just in the killing potential per gold comparison.

Actually, comparing to cerebrus, I think furies are a little better at continuing to exist in large battles.

Anyway, cerebrus are teir 3 and furies tier 2, and i dont think furies sitting by themselves are gonna be great units, its the way they act in a dungeon army led by a dungeon hero that makes them so great.

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Postby MrSteamTank » Oct 1 2006, 1:41

I voted Rakshasa Ranis because they are easily one of the coolest units in the game. That glow coming from their legs and arms make them look so badass.

Honestly I think blood furies are overpowered though due to their ridiculous movement and probably because of that is why I say they are the most useful overall.

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Kilop
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Postby Kilop » Oct 1 2006, 7:41

However, the Cerberi are actually as effective avec Gating and a bit of skill.

busted... german translator , yeah right :hoo:
anyway, i choose vampires for obvious self sustaining, most annoying unit ever ( a beat weeker in HV but always soo cool )
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Gaidal Cain
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Postby Gaidal Cain » Oct 1 2006, 8:11

Vote Rakshasa. It's the unit I think I'd like to spare the least when using it's town. This isn't quite the same as "most useful", but still...

Oh, and one thing missing from the Cerberi/Fury debate is the strong combo effect you get between Furies and raiders. Furies excel at triggering the lizard bite several times.
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DaemianLucifer
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Postby DaemianLucifer » Oct 1 2006, 9:22

Gaidal Cain wrote:Oh, and one thing missing from the Cerberi/Fury debate is the strong combo effect you get between Furies and raiders. Furies excel at triggering the lizard bite several times.


I prefer the hydra lizard combo.So much cooler.

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okrane
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Postby okrane » Oct 1 2006, 9:58

DaemianLucifer wrote:
Gaidal Cain wrote:Oh, and one thing missing from the Cerberi/Fury debate is the strong combo effect you get between Furies and raiders. Furies excel at triggering the lizard bite several times.


I prefer the hydra lizard combo.So much cooler.


Minotaur + Lizard :D

Anything + Lizard B-)

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DaemianLucifer
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Postby DaemianLucifer » Oct 1 2006, 10:27

okrane wrote:Minotaur + Lizard :D


Yes,but then the creatures dont bite back.With hydra+lizard it goes something like this:Hydra strikes both creatures,lizard strikes one of them,the other strikes lizard,lizard strikes the other creature.So much fun :D Did anyone try this with more than two creatures?

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okrane
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Postby okrane » Oct 1 2006, 10:30

3 Lizards circling a creature... talk about gang-banging-dinosaurs :D

Minotaurs are nice because they hit twice the same creature... so the lizards will hit twice... and who cares if someone retals against your minotaurs... you should be glad that they absorbed one retaliation...

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Postby wayne » Oct 1 2006, 11:38

I voted for the Vampire Lords, I love to mass them.


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