Grade the ULTIMATES

The new Heroes games produced by Ubisoft. Please specify which game you are referring to in your post.

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okrane
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Grade the ULTIMATES

Postby okrane » Sep 29 2006, 18:46

On a scale of 1 to 25 how would you scale the different ultimates...
I chose the scale this way because I'd like to associate it with the level when you should get the ultimate...

you should consider only the abilities themselves, not the requierements or other racial bonuses

I would scale them:

Unstopable Charge: 12
Urgash's call: 22
Nature's Luck: 25
Arcane Omniscience: 20
Rage of the Elements: 17-18
Howl of Terror: 17-18
Last edited by okrane on Sep 29 2006, 19:00, edited 2 times in total.

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Postby Warlock » Sep 29 2006, 18:49

I think at least Arcane Omniscience is way better than Urgash's Call. I mean, every spell in the game for free at Master level? Besides the fact it's probably the only ultimate that has a decent skill path (one that doesn't screw your hero by asking you to take useless skills like War Machines)

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Postby okrane » Sep 29 2006, 18:51

well please give me some numbers... and do not take into account the skill path... because this thread is made to gather info for a mod which would change the requirements
Last edited by okrane on Sep 29 2006, 18:59, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby ThunderTitan » Sep 29 2006, 18:57

Nature's Luck requires Defense, Offense, Pathfinding and Luck. And you think Arc Omniscience has a better skill path?! :|
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Postby Warlock » Sep 29 2006, 19:17

ThunderTitan wrote:Nature's Luck requires Defense, Offense, Pathfinding and Luck. And you think Arc Omniscience has a better skill path?! :|


I'd much rather take Archery under Attack than Battle Frenzy. But otherwise Nature's Luck has a decent skill path too (though Gilrean can't get it).

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Postby ThunderTitan » Sep 29 2006, 19:19

I'm sure always getting 2x dmg trumps the 20% bonus from Archery.
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Postby Warlock » Sep 29 2006, 19:20

ThunderTitan wrote:I'm sure always getting 2x dmg trumps the 20% bonus from Archery.


I never said Nature's Luck was bad - only that I'd rather be able to take Archery to get there.

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Postby Nebs » Sep 29 2006, 19:25

ThunderTitan wrote:I'm sure always getting 2x dmg trumps the 20% bonus from Archery.


I don't think Warlock disputed that. Just that the skill progression for Ultimate could be better. Atleast think so.

Anyway, Nature's Luck for me (as prolly for 98% more people) is the best, UC and AO share second place for now. Howl of Terror 3rd, Rage and Charge safely on bottom.

On the scale, something like this I guess...

NL - 25
UC, AO - 17
HoT - 13
RotE - 8
UC - 6

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Postby ThunderTitan » Sep 29 2006, 19:26

Bad =! Worth It! (=! means doesn't)

And Battle Frenzy isn't worthless either. Wizards get Scholar and Mana Regen might be better for the Knldg intensive hero then Arcane Training.

Nebs wrote:I don't think Warlock disputed that. Just that the skill progression for Ultimate could be better. Atleast think so.


He said the Wiz had it better just cause of Archery. It's a small price to pay.
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Postby Warlock » Sep 29 2006, 19:32

That was just a general statement. Hence why I said "probably". I don't have every skill path memorized.

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Postby Cyrox » Sep 29 2006, 20:00

Why a scale of 1 to 25? 1 to 10 woulda been the same. Anyway, my two cents:

Unstopable Charge: 7 - Worst ultimate, hero's turn would be spent on casting spells or divine guidance. It's good only if your troops are running low on numbers and your hero deals higher damage to the enemy.

Urgash's call: 20 - Instant gating can be really powerful, it acts like a weaker version of phantom forces. In addition, you get to use the skills which the gated creatures possess. (Like explosion of horned overseer). Having additional reinforcements as soon as possible can really change the tide of the battle. Very useful for blocking paths =).

Nature's Luck: 25 - The best ultimate. Period.

Arcane Omniscience: 13 - You get all of the spells cast on Expert lvl, but so what? I usually dont find myself using alot of different spells in a battle and at most only limited to 2 spell schools. One would be enough.

Rage of the Elements: 17 - Extra damage shouldnt be shunned. It only works with opposing elements though, and you arent gonna plan ur attacks based on what elements the enemy stack belongs to. You'd be glad if it triggers, it's just a bonus. Limited usefulness.

Howl of Terror: 20 - Definitely useful. Especially against an enemy hero who did not take up leadership. -3 to morale or more can be really irritating for the affected person. Their units will skip their turn frequently.

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Postby joerginger » Sep 29 2006, 20:10

Unstoppable Charge: 1
Urgash's Call: 24
Howl of Terror: 22
Rage of the Elements: 10
Nature's Luck: 23
Arcane Omniscience: 25

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Postby DaemianLucifer » Sep 29 2006, 21:03

With the patch or without it?As I understand with patch 1.3 heavens charge lasts the whole battle.

Unstopale charge: 4/10 with 1.3 change
Urgashs call: 21
Howl of terror: 19
Rage of the elements: 10
Natures luck: 25
Arcane omniscience: 20

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Postby Idleness2 » Sep 29 2006, 21:10

Arcane Omniscience 25 (only lack of imagination could make this skill any weaker)
Unstoppable charge 15 (Anything that increases the effectiveness of your already large number of troops makes a big difference, and this effects them a huge amount, and coordinates well with a hero giving high defense skill, but okay, 3 times a rather small amount is still a fairly small amount)
Urgash's call 20 (purely for tactical reasons)
Howl of Terror 13 (This is only a bonus of -4 more moral and only effects creatures who actually have it (and are on the feild, i.e. not imperial griffins), and will not coordinate with dark magic, like puppet master or blindness or frenzy at ALL)
Rage of the elements 18 (double damage? thats a lot...not always going to be devastating however, depends on size of armies)
Nature's Luck 16 (U already are gonna be rolling luck most of the time...and a lot of the sylvan damage comes from druid spells, and to some extent sprite spell, unaffected by luck)

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Postby okrane » Sep 29 2006, 22:27

Nature's Luck... not that strong?.... I disagree... then what would you pick as Ranger Skills?
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Postby Idleness2 » Sep 29 2006, 22:37

Well As sylvan, theres a couple of ways I might go, and depends on the armies u are using, Luck , soldiers luck and elven luck seem definately vital for an army with master hunters and unicorns. Attack and tactics and logistics to familiar ground quite useful for unicorns and war dancers. Obviously archery for master hunters. Light magic, to ressurection, is better for units with high defense, because u will ressurect the same number of HP, but the higher their defense the more substantial those HP are, so I would tend to want the defense skill with a hero who goes for ressurection. SInce the + % from haste means is is better, for units who have a higher base initiative, I would also want to use high initiative units,
Imube arrow sombined with war machines is also potentially very powerful but it means that a lot of your damage with be from non unit, so with such a build, i would not bother with attack, or even luck, and give this hero all the druids, for example.

So it depends, for me, what heros u get, as primary/secondary, and what skills u come across during the game, sylvan is a race that has quite a lot of flexibility.

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Postby ThunderTitan » Sep 30 2006, 0:06

Warlock wrote:That was just a general statement. Hence why I said "probably". I don't have every skill path memorized.


And i corrected you. That's all.

Idleness2 wrote:and to some extent sprite spell,


What?! The way they nerfed it it's practicaly useless if the enemy is in range. And you're prob better of waiting unless he's weak.

Have you actualy seen the req for Nature's Luck?! And 2,25x dmg all the time regardless of your Luck Value is pretty sweet. Expert Luck only gives you a 30% chance to trigger, and there are ways to bring that down.
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Postby Idleness2 » Sep 30 2006, 0:22

Well how much it increases the number of times the luck triggers is whats important, of course, and I dont know what the % is, if you have 5 luck, it just feels like most of the time, to me. The amount of damage that is changed also of course matters, like 2x 50 is less than 1 x 500. U laugh at this obvious statement, im sure, but u know, sylvan heros dont get attack skill...
They have 3 units that can hit on the 1st round, without tactics and/or speed bonus: Sprites, Druids, and master hunters. Of these, 1 cares about luck at all, and with the warding arrow special, its a little wasted if they just kill an enemy stack outright.
With tactics and speed bonus they get unicorns and dragons, and these on the other hand will benefit a lot from extra luck, but anyway, lets say u have a 50% luck and all these tactics and all, and on round 1 to do a total of 4k damage, of which 1k is non-luck related as from destructive magic, w/e. Then getting the ultimate will multiple the remaining 3k, by what u get extra, which will be 1750, as it was half the tiem you did normal instead of 2.25 damage.
So on round 1 u get 5.750K damage instead of 4k. ROund 2, it gets better, but its depending on whats surviving and all...
I think this is a respectable difference, but not totally substantial. COmpare with the easier to calculate rage of the elements.

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Postby sylvanllewelyn » Sep 30 2006, 0:31

Purely based on ability, I think they're rather balanced after the patch (esp. unstoppable charge). I think I already did the math as to why nature's luck is slightly overrated.

However, one must think of the skill path, not just because you might fail, but also what you have besides the ultimate if you SUCCEED. Plus, some ultimates are more difficult than others - some primary skills are very hard to get for some classes. My ranking from best to worse:

Howl of terror
Urgash's call
Nature's luck
Unstoppable charge (very powerful as of patch 1.3)
Arcane omnipotence (only 2% chance of being offered attack)
Rage of the Elements (no destructive magic)

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Postby ThunderTitan » Sep 30 2006, 0:40

Idleness2 wrote:Well how much it increases the number of times the luck triggers is whats important, of course, and I dont know what the % is, if you have 5 luck, it just feels like most of the time, to me.


Last i hear the chance of getting luck is 10% per point (5 luck = 50% chance). So NL doubles your luck dmg output if you have max luck.


And it's not Natures Luck, but luck itself that's overpowered. 2x dmg for a random thing is too much.
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