Insane wood costs of Sylvan buildings

[Naskoni]

In the hotseat testing that I've done pretty much all factions run into resource issues:

Necros need lots of Mercury and 10+ sulfer for Liches is a choke point.

Sylvan needs a TON of wood. Dragons will hit the field before Treants.

Dungeon needs a lot of Crystals for high level buildings. Pray you get walkers guarding Crystal mines or you're in trouble.

Academy costs and challenges are well documented. [Forget racial specials]

Inferno has always been sulfer starved.

Haven requires more resources but I view this faction as the least compromised by the resource changes.

I'd add that Necro has a "stone" problem as well and that Mecrury is a (serious) problem for Inferno at a certain stage too.

[Sir_Toejam]

No Man's Land

my favorite map, out of all the maps (Nival and custom) currently available.

lots of variability for good replay, works great on both hotseat (let the computer play the opponents) and regular multiplayer.

that said, JJ nailed it with the issue on sylvan:

it seems Nival "forgot" that a lot of the common buildings for all factions also cost wood, and the upgrades for sylvan are horridly expensive now, wrt to wood costs.

it's an easy fix.

I think by this weekend, i should have a mod that tweaks (both up and down) some of the resource costs for low level buldings for all the factions.

not a lot, but enough to make it slightly easier.

I'll be basing the decisions on the following rationale:

playing on hard, you get 20 wood and ore, ten of rare each, and 20K.

assuming you start at level 1 town, you can build up to level 8 by the end of the week, which usually means a level 4 creature building should be available to construct by eow.

I intend to balance the resources such that it will be more likely you will be able to build that level 4 creature building by the end of the first week, if you were playing on hard difficulty, and still have enough resources left to upgrade any ONE (not all) of those buildings in the second week.

[Jolly Joker]

Umm, no, if you start with town level 1 you cannot reach level 9 in week one, which you need for all level 4s except for Haven and Academy.

[Sir_Toejam]

ah, you're right, I meant level 3 creature building, technically, but was also thinking about the fact that at the end of the week, you should still have enough resources to build a level 4 creature building.

actually, what i ended up doing was mostly shifting resources around to balance between resources, and between levels of buildings, to try to remove bottlenecks.

I'm starting testing on it tonight.

[Milla aka. the Slayer]

I've had the same problems with Sylvan and it's really annoying 'cause I genuinly think this town has a very strong army and some great heroes but the fact that it takes soooo much wood makes me not wanna play this faction It would make it easier if the marketplace had some better offers but since they don't most wood will have to be earned or found...this is such a shame.

[Elvin]

I guess one way or another we are anticipating 1.4

[Sir_Toejam]

this is such a shame

nawww. it's such an easy fix. expect something later this week.

....almost done, just working on modding the last faction, testing today and tommorrow, and will put it up friday.

ITMT, i posted a thread in the modmaking guild where i listed some of the changes I am currently playing with (lots of testing still to do), where comments can be made and further changes suggested.

viewtopic.php?t=4036

[Caradoc]

I might note that a lot of the wood requirements are for upgraded dwellings. The basic Sylvan armies are quite good, except perhaps at level 1, where the upgrade does not require wood. So playing with basic armies for a while is not much of a hindrance. I usually hit my first bottleneck with upgrading the Druids and/or Unicorns and the hold up there will be Gems or Crystal.

What I've found is that I get my upgraded dwellings around the end of the first month, about the time I am able to get to the dragons.

The main impact of the change is that I am a little more willing to recruit both starting heros to put together an army that can immediately attack level one neutrals guarding a sawmill.

[Jolly Joker]

If there wasn't Caradoc's post you'd think that this would get the next whining thread.
Have alle of you people here forgotten of how a month ago most people were complaining about how the Sylvans were so strong? Now, when it looks like they are still as strong but have some more difficulties to get things done, it's suddenly, waahh, I cannot make my troops elite troops right away. I really have to think hard about what I do because I cannot do everything I would like to. On Heroic. Because it should be a cakewalk.

[Sir_Toejam]

see my post re your lame attempts at sarcasm in the other thread.

you do more whining than anybody here, jj.

you just whine about us, instead of the game.

why don't you go play a while and let the rest of us tinker a bit, eh?

[Mytical]

Actually I am not having much trouble with Sylvan. Still having a HUGE difficulty with Academy...poor magic guys . Weakest at the beginning, hardest to get any decent creatures going, and there specials are a pain . So for now they will just sit in the corner and mope. Yeah wood could be better, but it is abundant so..Sylvan still my favorite to play till Academy gets some tweaking!

[omegaweix]

If there wasn't Caradoc's post you'd think that this would get the next whining thread.
Have alle of you people here forgotten of how a month ago most people were complaining about how the Sylvans were so strong? Now, when it looks like they are still as strong but have some more difficulties to get things done, it's suddenly, waahh, I cannot make my troops elite troops right away. I really have to think hard about what I do because I cannot do everything I would like to. On Heroic. Because it should be a cakewalk.

Agreed, have read many of the "1.3 ressource trouble" threads and i consider the changes made as quite interesting....
.... More expensive creature upgrades are a good thing because before 1.3 i seldom fought with an unupgraded army and often thougt: "Why 2 types of the same creature when i almost never use them?"
I really really enjoy the altered pace of the game now, where rushing from tier 1-6 with all upgrades and then only waiting for level 7 is no longer the main strategy

As for myself I do not shy the rethinking process required, I appreciate it.

And JJ, i'm with you regarding most of your posts on new ressource demands.
Don't understand why you got bashed so much at times, because e.g. when erveryone screamed because of "Academy gotten unplayable at all" you were the first who stated, that in return the cost of mages guild dropped a lot... and with this little info, the whole picture changed a bit... though many others just (wanted to) ignore(d) this!


edit: Although some tweaking wouldn't hurt, Sylvan level 2 dwelling for example is a little bit too wood demanding for my taste....
....but overall the changes are fine

[Sir_Toejam]

he gets bashed because he simply can't accept that people disagree with him and want to try something else.

is that really so hard to understand?

It's not like these threads are directed at Nival.

Modding, get it?

if there is enough interest to generate a 100 post thread, there is enough interest in seeing how a mod might work.

gees, it's like arguing with zombies.

besides which, JJ likes to contradict himself. earlier in the thread you might have noted that he pointed out how the sylvans suffer because of the increased wood costs, considering that most common buildings to all towns also cost wood (fort, blacksmith, etc.)

then he does an about face and tells us we are all just whining about the sylvans.

do you want me to quote chapter and verse?

here's just one little piece of his post detailing the bottleneck in wood costs faced by sylvans, and what he proposed to decrease it, right before he claims we all are just whiners:

JJ post 1:

Personally I'd think you could reduce the level 2 and their upgrade by 5 Wood each.

JJ post 2:

If there wasn't Caradoc's post you'd think that this would get the next whining thread.

go figure, that's exactly what i did in the mod I'm testing.

heck, I even gave him kudos for pointing it out originally, then he turns around and tells us we are all whining.

now you see why I'm bashing him?

[Jolly Joker]

There is a difference in pointing out things, suggesting a personal opinion on what COULD be changed (basically not because of the resource demands all in all but because of the fact that we are talking about a level 2 dwelling here and not a level 5 or so) and whining about how things are difficult. The interesting thing is that I pointed this out in the ACADEMY thread stating Sylvan's wood needs as opposed to how difficult Academy now was. I could also ask you whether you have build a lvl 7 Necro dwelling in 1.3 already, and if so, when, and I could ask the same for everyone else.
So since they ALL have some problems it makes no sense to do a mod for one. And if you want to have it easier you can just play on lower difficulty.

[Cyrox]

Hey all, I tried Sylvan again since I've made this thread, and played the game to finish. Generally some feedback if anyone cares to listen.

I agree with something Jolly Joker said, which is the war dancer buildings need to be reduced in wood costs.

The others, well, just needed some re-adopting of strategy. The master hunters building also got abit of raise, but I'll drop that since they're so powerful and so its even.

So, only 2 rebalancing I feel is needed:

1. The blade dancers and war dancers building. The cost of wood is truly INSANE. I never built the buildings and not as if they were so powerful that they needed to be nerfed like that. 10 for basic and 15 for advanced? I'd rather spend it on treant and ancient treant buildings.

2. It was rather hard for me to get the green dragon buildings for Sylvan, I know the rare resource costs have increased for all factions, BUT I noticed while playing as Haven, Inferno and Academy I got them rather easy. Maybe these factions really needed those ultimates early, I dont know. But just something I noticed.

[ThunderTitan]

Well the Greenies init makes him sortya the best town unit in the game, so cheap he shouldn't be, but then again there is such a thing as too expensive.

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

There is a difference in pointing out things, suggesting a personal opinion on what COULD be changed (basically not because of the resource demands all in all but because of the fact that we are talking about a level 2 dwelling here and not a level 5 or so) and whining about how things are difficult. The interesting thing is that I pointed this out in the ACADEMY thread stating Sylvan's wood needs as opposed to how difficult Academy now was. I could also ask you whether you have build a lvl 7 Necro dwelling in 1.3 already, and if so, when, and I could ask the same for everyone else.
So since they ALL have some problems it makes no sense to do a mod for one. And if you want to have it easier you can just play on lower difficulty.

The factions are not balanced. People pointing that out are not "whining" they are pointing out their perceptions based on their gaming experience.

Tweaking still needs to be done. Sylvan and necropolis are easier to play than the expensive and underpowered academy. The academy is still the weakest of the factions.

Since you mentioned troop level with relation to building costs, lets compare the first 4 nonupgraded creature dwellings of the academy and sylvan towns, since it is hopeful to get these soon for early expansion.

looking at the first 4 non-upgraded dwellings:

Academy
5700 gold first 4 dwellings
30 ore
10 gems
5 mercury
10 sulfer

Sylvan:
3600
30 wood
20 ore
3 crystal
3 gems

Do you believe that the academy has the stronger troops? If not, the towns are not balanced.

GOW

[Shauku]

Grumpy you can continue that by taking just level 1 & 2 unupgraded next, and guess what? It is not "balanced" again.

You are taking things out of context.

[Jolly Joker]

There is a difference in pointing out things, suggesting a personal opinion on what COULD be changed (basically not because of the resource demands all in all but because of the fact that we are talking about a level 2 dwelling here and not a level 5 or so) and whining about how things are difficult. The interesting thing is that I pointed this out in the ACADEMY thread stating Sylvan's wood needs as opposed to how difficult Academy now was. I could also ask you whether you have build a lvl 7 Necro dwelling in 1.3 already, and if so, when, and I could ask the same for everyone else.
So since they ALL have some problems it makes no sense to do a mod for one. And if you want to have it easier you can just play on lower difficulty.

The factions are not balanced. People pointing that out are not "whining" they are pointing out their perceptions based on their gaming experience.

Tweaking still needs to be done. Sylvan and necropolis are easier to play than the expensive and underpowered academy. The academy is still the weakest of the factions.

Since you mentioned troop level with relation to building costs, lets compare the first 4 nonupgraded creature dwellings of the academy and sylvan towns, since it is hopeful to get these soon for early expansion.

looking at the first 4 non-upgraded dwellings:

Academy
5700 gold first 4 dwellings
30 ore
10 gems
5 mercury
10 sulfer

Sylvan:
3600
30 wood
20 ore
3 crystal
3 gems

Do you believe that the academy has the stronger troops? If not, the towns are not balanced.

GOW

You forgot to mention the following really unimportant small detail:
The buildings all need a certain level to be build so you HAVE to build a lot of other stuff just to be able to build them.
If you start with Town level TWO (village hall and Tavern, and Tavern is actaully a fair offer because it costs W) you need for Academy:
Gremlins, Blacksmith, Golems Gargoyles, Mages:
6700 gold, 5 Wood, 30 O, 10 G, 5 M, 10S

Sylvans need: Pixies, Blade Dancers, TWO MORE DWELLINGS, Hunters, MAGE GUILD LEVEL 1, ONE MORE DWELLING, DRUIDS.
So you need:
5600 Gold, 35 W, 25 O, 3 C, 3 G PLUS MONEY AND RES FOR 3 MORE DWELLINGS! 1 of this will be Town Hall for 2000 Gold. However, you have to find another 2.

[Idleness2]

The few times ive played sylvan, I never got blade dancers.

They just dont coordinate with the other units, imo

They would do fine on their own, i guess, but if wood is an issue, i dont understand, why get them..

one stack of master hunters, 1 stack of sprites, and 5 stacks of druids, this is all you need early on.(Druids are great for low level heros because their effictiveness is pretty much totally independant of the hero and their skills...positive or negative......This is also great cause u are gonna be low level when u get demolished by a haven marksmen army, so druids will at least kill some of them, for spite...)

Also, I dunno why ppl love treats so much, i think its weird...they are elaborate walls like stone gargoyles...they are decent for protecting the few very vulnerable units that can do damage, but they themselves really cant do damage, unless you are fortunate enough to get an enemy who attacks them so that they get the chance to retaliate. I guess they would be great units then, if yr playing the comp or an idiot. They work, as walls, if u have the luxury to afford them but since u guys are worrying about the resources sylvan needs.

I think in midgame, a sylvan army composed of sprites, master hunters, non-upgraded druids and silver unicorns is all you really want, the rest of the sylvan units would profit this army very little, if at all.

Still, even if sylvan had all the luxury of getting all the units it needs, its units are quite weak, especially with the absence of a hero with an attack skill and overdependence on low HP units for damage...

Academy and Sylvan are in fact so underpowered that its just a grueling effort to play them unless u get really lucky early on, which is unfortunate cause they are both kinda interesting in concept (even tho the graphics and stuff are pretty goofy for both of them, as well)

But at least they dont have to worry about accidentally casting curse of the netherworld, unlike haven

I saw someone say the greenies init make them the best town unit in the game? thats weird to me, u know 10 archangels are gonna butcher 20 green dragons just by retaliating...