your opinion on Raise Dead & Ressurect in 1.3

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What do you think about Raise Dead & Ressurect in 1.3

It was correct desidion to make them work like this
19
50%
I dont know yet
8
21%
Awful. These spells are nearly usless now.
11
29%
 
Total votes: 38

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MistWeaver
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your opinion on Raise Dead & Ressurect in 1.3

Postby MistWeaver » Sep 23 2006, 18:09

So what do you, people, think ?

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okrane
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Postby okrane » Sep 23 2006, 18:14

I think it's good they way they are
Nothing was more annoying prior to this patch like a mage that took your castle and spammed raise dead.
it is a rather cheap spell and if the armies were small or medium sized you could lose the battle just because of the mage's huge mana pool with wich he could raise those 2 titans forever...
or in another situation: Imagine a 90 mana Vladimir... he could raise 10 time the group of Vraiths that you had a hard time killing... and you would have to do it again... what other 2nd level spell could make up for that?

right now it has becomed more like what it should... a spell to cast at the end of the fight to minimise casualties...

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Naskoni
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Postby Naskoni » Sep 23 2006, 18:45

okrane wrote:I think it's good they way they are
Nothing was more annoying prior to this patch like a mage that took your castle and spammed raise dead.
it is a rather cheap spell and if the armies were small or medium sized you could lose the battle just because of the mage's huge mana pool with wich he could raise those 2 titans forever...
or in another situation: Imagine a 90 mana Vladimir... he could raise 10 time the group of Vraiths that you had a hard time killing... and you would have to do it again... what other 2nd level spell could make up for that?

right now it has becomed more like what it should... a spell to cast at the end of the fight to minimise casualties...


So, basically you're saying it's wrong for a mage to spam the use of magic, because it just so happens that magic is a mage's strong point, right? Magic should never win a fight? All the points that went into knowledge and spellpower are points that didn't go into attack and defense. Is a Haven hero "spamming" his paladins making circles and obliterating your troops a bad thing, one that has 15+ attack and defense? Should we nerf Haven troops because of it? Maybe spamming Ressurect was wrong too because they nerfed it as well?

And a 90 mana Vladimir? Has it occured to you that Necromancers just so happen to be VERY weak in knowledge, just like Inferno is very weak in Spellpower, so a 90 mana Necromancer is hardly easy to come by by normal leveling unless you bathe in artifacts, so sorry if I tend to dismiss your argument here. If you have a 90 mana Vladimir I think his Raise Dead will not be your largest problem anyway ;)

In my opinion Nival overdid it, by a large margin at that. Raise Dead is quite obviously a Necro speciality because only the undead remain after the end of the battle, so it would have made a lot more sense to make it a lv3 spell instead (which would have raised it's mana cost too), one that would require either a special ability or specialization in Summoning Magic by a non-Necro player (and a even Necro would need to choose Summoning magic in order to use it), and even then it would still have not been overpowered as the troops are lost after the end of the battle. In addition it would have helped if the casting hero actually speciliazed in Summoning Magic (bigger spell effectiveness difference between a basic and expert proficiency with Summoning Magic heroes with heroes that don't have Summoning Magic at all having the effectiveness almost halved in comparison to the basic proficiency - you get the idea.) Necro's cannot easily spam it anyway due to limited knowledge (far from what some people preach as being indefinite spam) and in many situations there are actually much more valuable spells that are cast instead (mass decay being one of my personal favourites for example). If you ask me Raise Dead belongs in Dark Magic, but that's another topic.

Another thing that people usually overlook very easily is that Necro troops usually have less HP than other factions, making them easier to kill, but also easier to raise - especially skelletons, so it makes the spell appear really overpowered on the first glance.

Another solution that Nival obviously chose to ignore was to make sure that once all "normal" troops of a non-necro hero are dead and the only remaining ones are raised (i.e. till the end of the combat) then this hero loses - just as with gated and summoned creatures - that would have stopped the indefinite "spam" (which would have meant that when you attack a stack with partially raised units and you kill some you actually kill some of the remaining non-raised units).

Do that and raise dead is no longer a problem IMHO. Short version - Nival didn't make it right... so NO for me.

I really don't understand why they nerf all spells that actually work and make a difference and I'm not limiting that comment just to Raise Dead...

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Postby Adicto » Sep 23 2006, 19:08

-20% hit points per cast is ridiculous. Now when you use raise dead on alive creatures it is like casting a weakening spell on them. Why makes Nival so stupid decisions over and over again? Christ, the things can be done so badly only if they make it deliberately. So many alternatives... only 1 cast per stack, make it a 3 lvl spell, more expensive... but they choose right the worst :disagree:

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okrane
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Postby okrane » Sep 23 2006, 19:22

spamming this spell is somewhat overpowering...
I mean it has more power than an average DD spell of second level...
if it were level 3 and with a higher cost... it would have been ok to not nerf it...
But if you take 2 heroes with the same spell power and let's compare this spell to other spells:
At no proficiency:

Raise dead: 120 + 15*power
Ice Bolt 60 + 12*power
Lightning Bolt 11 + 11*power

and that's what I meant... it's much stronger than other spells of its tier and that would permit abuse. you would never get to kill with your spells what the other hero raised.... he will always be in advantage.

I agree... that making it a level 3 spell with a higher cost, like 15 would balance this... but for the spell as it is a nerf was necesary

Another solution that Nival obviously chose to ignore was to make sure that once all "normal" troops of a non-necro hero are dead and the only remaining ones are raised (i.e. till the end of the combat) then this hero loses - just as with gated and summoned creatures - that would have stopped the indefinite "spam" (which would have meant that when you attack a stack with partially raised units and you kill some you actually kill some of the remaining non-raised units).


I totaly agree with this variant

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Postby Sir_Toejam » Sep 23 2006, 19:38

so... making the spell level 3 would also mean one had to either get basic summoning or arcane insight in order to learn it, making it harder to learn.

that would be an easy fix, in and of itself (removing the 20% nerf).

want me to make a mod that does that?

to balance the spell numbers out, I would also recommend "demoting" a level 3 spell to level 2.

any suggestions?

how about phantom forces?

(just kidding!)

since we are talking necro stuff for the most part, what about making suffering a level 2 spell (kinda goes with weakness anyway)?

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okrane
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Postby okrane » Sep 23 2006, 19:47

to balance the spell numbers out, I would also recommend "demoting" a level 3 spell to level 2.

any suggestions?


Earthquake maybe - and give it a very weak effect when cast w/o any proficiency in summoning magic
Like that all the magic schools will remain balanced as number of spells per level.

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Postby Grumpy Old Wizard » Sep 23 2006, 19:56

okrane wrote:I agree... that making it a level 3 spell with a higher cost, like 15 would balance this... but for the spell as it is a nerf was necesary


I voted ok the way it is. This solution though would have been better.

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Gandalf: "So do all who live to see such times but that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us."

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Postby MistWeaver » Sep 23 2006, 20:05

strange .. half of people accepted it as valid.

As for myself - I belive it the most stupid Nival desicion so far..
Two reasons:

1) these spells looking more like offencive ones. There are really few situations where they can be used on own troops.
2) resurection of one unit that takes 20% of health of other 1000+++ is just ridiculous.

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okrane
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Postby okrane » Sep 23 2006, 20:07

people accepted that a nerf was in order... not necesarily this one...
It is clear that it isn't the best balancing choice...

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Postby Naskoni » Sep 23 2006, 20:09

Make it cost 15?!? Do any of you people play Necro at all? If so good luck casting it with a necromancer at all with all his knowledge... Making it harder to get, requiring a specialization and then ensuring that you will hardly be able to cast it with the only faction that can make full use of it is almost like throwing it out of the game for good, but hey, that's just me...

Making it a lv3 spell which costs as much as a normal lv 3 spell would have been more than enough...

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okrane
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Postby okrane » Sep 23 2006, 20:12

Make it cost 15?!? Do any of you people play Necro at all? If so good luck casting it with a necromancer at all with all his knowledge... Making it harder to get, requiring a specialization and then ensuring that you will hardly be able to cast it with the only faction that can make full use of it is almost like throwing it out of the game for good, but hey, that's just me...

Making it a lv3 spell which costs as much as a normal lv 3 spell would have been more than enough...


Necros all have it to begin with... and yes... making it a regular 3rd level spell would suffice... 15 was just an example of a number higher than 9 :p

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Postby Sir_Toejam » Sep 23 2006, 20:21

ok so move animate up to level 3, and move earthquake down to level 2.

is that the general consesus?

I rather like the idea of earthquake being accessible to everybody, even those who chose not to invest in spellcasting.

makes castle sieges slightly easier.

...and yes, the power of it without specialization WILL be reduced.

funny that is mentioned, as I've been working on making ALL the spells more dependent on specialization and spell power (same overall effects on average, but the range of difference between no and expert specialization is increased).

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okrane
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Postby okrane » Sep 23 2006, 20:23

brillant :)

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Meandor
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Postby Meandor » Sep 23 2006, 20:41

Nival overdid it, but it might have been even worse, like those ideas with lv 3 spell.
...

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Naskoni
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Postby Naskoni » Sep 23 2006, 21:04

Sir_Toejam wrote:ok so move animate up to level 3, and move earthquake down to level 2.

is that the general consesus?

I rather like the idea of earthquake being accessible to everybody, even those who chose not to invest in spellcasting.

makes castle sieges slightly easier.

...and yes, the power of it without specialization WILL be reduced.

funny that is mentioned, as I've been working on making ALL the spells more dependent on specialization and spell power (same overall effects on average, but the range of difference between no and expert specialization is increased).


I'm all for this. Don't forget to tweak Ressurection as well and remove the stupid -10% from there as well.

As for all Necros getting it - not necessarily - it sure is nice, but is it too nice? I play mainly Necro, mind you - although this way Vlad becomes just one of many, otherwise I'm always tempted getting him simply because chances were you'd not get Raise Dead anyway (50-50). If the spell is made much weaker for heroes without specialization it might actually work out very well come to think about it.

What do people think of making the spell Dark Magic? Ressurection is not Summoning Magic too.

Regarding specialization - it is my personal feeling there is not enough difference between heroes specializing and those that do not - one has to get more benefit for choosing to specialize other than simply learning the spells and heroes that are not specializing in any magic should definitely be put at a disadvantage in comparison to such that do. So, Sir_Toejam, either tell me how to do it or do it yourself ;)

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okrane
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Postby okrane » Sep 23 2006, 21:23

As for all Necros getting it - not necessarily - it sure is nice, but is it too nice? I play mainly Necro, mind you - although this way Vlad becomes just one of many, otherwise I'm always tempted getting him simply because chances were you'd not get Raise Dead anyway (50-50). If the spell is made much weaker for heroes without specialization it might actually work out very well come to think about it.


in fact... since 1.3... ALL necro heroes have AD in their spellbook...

What do people think of making the spell Dark Magic? Ressurection is not Summoning Magic too.


I think it would uselessly complicate things... it wouldn't make much difference for a necro since they all have big chances of receiving both and the spells are clearly distributed 2 spells/level/school...

egarding specialization - it is my personal feeling there is not enough difference between heroes specializing and those that do not - one has to get more benefit for choosing to specialize other than simply learning the spells and heroes that are not specializing in any magic should definitely be put at a disadvantage in comparison to such that do. So, Sir_Toejam, either tell me how to do it or do it yourself wink


I agree... at expert level spells should be overall stronger...

about necro heroes:

What do you think about Dreide... what does her specialty do exactly?
I usually take Vlad... but one time I was defending the town with dreide(recruited at level 8 or so) and it decreased the moral quite badly... the ennemy missed lots of his turns... I am tempted to try her out...

what do you think of her?...With the new mod... getting the ultimate would be easier and it would make her alot stronger...

Hope Sir_Toejam will change his mind and allow Archery and Howl of terror go together :D

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Postby Naskoni » Sep 23 2006, 21:56

I know all Necros get raise dead now, but my point is that this can be changed.

As for a Necro hero - I find I pick Lucretia more often than not - she makes vampires a force to be reckoned with and we all know they get better the more damage they deal and she definitely helps in this regard - they get more defense too - 50+ vampires can be scary under her at lv15+ ;) Additionally she comes with mysticism - necros have little knowledge so it comes in handy if you have to fight often and this is usually the case.

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okrane
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Postby okrane » Sep 23 2006, 22:04

but you haven't answered my question... How exactly does Dreides' ability improves banshee howl?

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Naskoni
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Postby Naskoni » Sep 23 2006, 22:07

okrane wrote:but you haven't answered my question... How exactly does Dreides' ability improves banshee howl?


From all I know - for all practical intents and purposes - it doesn't. I barely remember that under lv20 absolutely nothing changes and even at that level only the initiative decrease was a just a bit stronger - I read it months ago - bottom line was it is not a progressive skill in the end and as such not worth it for me. I don't use her if there is a choice.


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