Ultimate abilities - too hard to get?

[Metathron]

Well?

And if "yes", do you use the mod by Sir_Toejam (found here: https://www.celestialheavens.com/527) that allows you to obtain the ultimate ability by levels 16-20, if selecting your skills carefully? Do you find it balances the game, or does it enable the player to obtain the ultimate too easily?

[okrane]

What are the requierements for the ultimates in that mod?

[Metathron]

This is the doc that comes along with it:

Fast-Track Specializations

to install:

drop the .pak file in your data directory

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I have modified the requirements for the ultimate specializations for each faction. They are far easier to obtain; you should be able with complete and total focus to get them around level 16 to level 20, with 16 being the absolute minimum, and that only provided the hero starts with one of the required skill trees and perks.

I'm hoping this will add a bit of interest in going after these skills on custom maps and in multiplayer.

I wouldn't suggest using this mod for the single-player campaigns; or at least only if you are playing on heroic.

here are the changes:

general: all ultimate specializations require complete mastery of the basic faction skills (i.e., you must have all specializations as one of the requirements). For example, Nature's luck requires rain of arrows, imbue arrow, and deadeye shot.

before you start thinking : "Yikes, those seem like hardly any requirements at all!" try it and see. I've tested with every faction, and the game requires expert skill levels in the base skills to accomplish the tasks at hand. However, if you do find it too easy (not including any maps that have skill trainers on them), do feel free to kick in commentary at the forum on the bottom of this readme.

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Haven:

Unstoppable Charge

- Aura of swiftness (leadership)
- Retribution (attack)


Inferno:

Urgash's Call

- Teleport Assault (logistics)
- Swarming Gate (luck)


Dungeon:

Rage of Elements

- Secrets of Destruction (destructive magic)
- Wizard's Reward (enlightenment)


Necropolis:

Howl of Terror

- Power of Speed (attack)
- Spirit Link (Dark Magic)


Academy:

Arcane Omniscience

- Counterspell (sorcery)
- Graduate (Enlightenment)


Sylvan:

Nature's Luck

- Dead Man's Curse (luck)
- Imbue Ballista (war machines)


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have fun!

if you have suggestions, you can find me over on the Celestial Heaven's forum:

viewtopic.php?p=85029#85029

[okrane]

Well that's what I was afraid of...
There are some requierements that aren't in the optimal skill list for the class hero.
Meaning:
-for necro: power of speed it's just plain useless for a necromancer. If you have attack with a necro IMHO you would definately get Battle Frenzy and Archery. I mean I find these two essential.... and the third would be cold steel or tactics... depending if you want to be more offensive or defensive.
I suggest replacing the requierement to cold steel ...

- for warlock: I never took enlightment as a skill... and even if I would, I would definately go for Intelligence... it's the only thing really useful...
so getting wizard's renewal will get you 3 almost useless skills: Eagle Eye, Dark Revelation, Wizard's Renewal...
Better change that to Tear of Asha vision... you will get warlock's luck anyway..

- for Wizard... same as warlock: scholar, wizard's renewal, graduate... are kinda useless... you might want not to spoil 3 skills...
I don't know... when I take Enlightment I just take it to expert and take just Intelligence as a secondary skills... the rest I spend my skillpoints elsewere...

for Ranger: Ballista it's ok... only one problem: your hero has 2% chance of getting the warmachines skill (correct me if I am wrong... it sais so in the manual...). of course the combo triple ballista + flaming arrows is a strong one... but it is hard to gain the warmachines skill and you will give up the Archery ability...
Maybe replace this requirement with Familiar ground.... since logistics is one of ranger's favorites...

heaven and inferno are ok... since those skills are already essential

As I said in the begining this is just my opinion... and I'd love to have these requirements... I find it not so fun when having to choose betweena well customised skill set and the ultimate... IMO the ultimate should empower the optimal skill set... and I belive we all can agree that some skills are essential for each faction without restraining the generality...

[Sir_Toejam]

There are some requierements that aren't in the optimal skill list for the class hero.

have you EVER tried to get the ulitimate special for any of your characters BEFORE this mod?

it was full of non-optimal skill choices, and required FOUR complete trees, instead of 1.3 trees.

I chose to leave a few behind just to make the choices not so obvious, but also leave plenty of room to still develop other more optimal skill trees (nothing stops you from taking offense and archery with a preserve hero, for example).

I am considering changing the war machines requirement for elves though, as it was pointed out that it is hard to get (wasn't my experience, but that could just be me). Besides, some consider war machines to actually BE an "optimal" skill tree for elves.

ever tried triple imbued ballista combined with rain of arrows and implosion?

*shudder*

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

I voted "Yes, somewhat." Either the heroes need to be redesigned or the requirements for the ultimates need to be changed so that each heroe has a chance to get his ultimate.

GOW

[okrane]

have you EVER tried to get the ulitimate special for any of your characters BEFORE this mod?

it was full of non-optimal skill choices, and required FOUR complete trees, instead of 1.3 trees.
*shudder*

Nope I never tried because was nearly impossible... and I find it great that this mod fixes that.

I chose to leave a few behind just to make the choices not so obvious, but also leave plenty of room to still develop other more optimal skill trees (nothing stops you from taking offense and archery with a preserve hero, for example)

why? why leave things that are not obvious? Forget about Sylvan... balista is strong... I was talking mostly about necro and warlock....
In stead of taking power of speed i'd rather take archery... wouldn't you?
and with my warlock would I take the 3 useless skills from Enlightment and not take Intelligence? Would you?...
Don't get me wrong... I belive you have done a great job and I like your mod very much... but IMO the changes I suggested would make it the best...
I just think that this mod is great because it throws into the fight the ultimate skills... so why give up other good things to get to the ultimate?
That was the reason I wasn't going for the ultimate in the first place... part of the skills requiered were more or less useless...

[Kalah]

Missing the option "yes, but it should be hard".

[Metathron]

so why give up other good things to get to the ultimate?
That was the reason I wasn't going for the ultimate in the first place... part of the skills requiered were more or less useless...

But if you shouldn't have to give anything up, i.e. get to pick the best skills AND get the ultimate, wouldn't everyone tread on more or less the same path, and wouldn't that effectively dilute the diversity of the game? Don't get me wrong, I'll frown and grumble if I have to give up some of my favourite skills too, but the ultimate reward should more than compensate. That's not to say that some things from the mod couldn't be changed, for example, just that I wouldn't want all of the skills leading up to the ultimate ability to be the "best" ones or the absolutely clear-cut choices for each hero class.

Missing the option "yes, but it should be hard".

Well, how hard do you find it currently, i.e. without the mod? What about with the mod, where it is possible to grab the ultimate as early as level 16, though with quite some luck?

[okrane]

But if you shouldn't have to give anything up, i.e. get to pick the best skills AND get the ultimate, wouldn't everyone pick more or less the same path, and wouldn't that effectively dilute the diversity of the game? Don't get me wrong, I'll frown and grumble if I have to give up some of my favourite skills too, but the ultimate reward should more than compensate. That's not to say that some things from the mod couldn't be changed

Well... no... in this mod the ultimate requires only 2 primary skills... so there are 3 skills left... which are for everyone to choose... so I don't think this will make everyone choose the same thing...

just that I wouldn't want all of the skills leading up to the ultimate ability to be the "best" ones or the absolutely clear-cut choices for each hero class.

But in some cases they ARE the best: Haven, Inferno, and Sylvan(even if WM is harder to get) requirements are very much THE optimal skills for that class...
So why not the other two?

[DaemianLucifer]

Yes,definetilly.But I dont play HV anymore.If I did,however,I would surelly use Sir_Toejam's mod(or make my own).