Enlightment, is it finally worth picking now?

The new Heroes games produced by Ubisoft. Please specify which game you are referring to in your post.

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Sir_Toejam
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Postby Sir_Toejam » Sep 23 2006, 20:26

nope. that's pretty much exactly the same way i typically build a warlock.

that is of course, unless i want his ultimate special for some reason.

;)

oops: i did notice a few differences in the feats for each tree:

sorcery i usually pick erratic mana instead of arcane training, and for destruction usually ice instead of lighting for perks.

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Postby okrane » Sep 23 2006, 20:39

sorcery i usually pick erratic mana instead of arcane training, and for destruction usually ice instead of lighting for perks


Erratic mana in stead of arcane... yeah... that could work... if the cost reduction is uniformely distributed between 0 and 50 percent it would give an average of 25 which is a little higher... I pick arcane training because I can have it early... at basic sorcery... to speed up the developement when the hero has low knowledge...

Lighning vs Ice... usually, if my hero has exp sorcery, and my witches have cast slow on a target I belive you can stunlock it with lightning bolt...
And nonetheless ... at a higher SP lightning spells are is stronger than ice...

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Postby Adicto » Sep 23 2006, 20:45

okrane wrote:
I really like it for my warlock + luck and empowered spells and a massive spellpower is very effective.


What is your skill tree for a warlock?... Mine has no room for Enlightment... although I admit It woud be rather nice to have it. I have the following dream tree:

Destructive Magic: M of Fire, M of Storms, Secrets of destr
Luck: soldiers luck, Warlock's luck, Magic resistance
Attack: tactics, power of speed, Retribution
Sorcery: Arcane Traning, Mana regen, Magic Insight
Logistics: Pathfinding, Scoutingm Teleport Attack

So... any other ideas?

-Enlightenment (Intelligence)
-Destructive Magic (Master of fire)
-Sorcery (Mana Regeneration, Erratic Mana)
-Luck (Soldier´s Luck, Warlock´s luck)
-Defense (Evasion)

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okrane
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Postby okrane » Sep 23 2006, 20:49

-Enlightenment (Intelligence)
-Destructive Magic (Master of fire)
-Sorcery (Mana Regeneration, Erratic Mana)
-Luck (Soldier´s Luck, Warlock´s luck)
-Defense (Evasion)


And no Tactis???... and what do you do in the begining?
Tactics is brillant for your blood furies....

Replacing Logistics and Teleport Attack with Enlightment and Intelligence is indeed a tough call....

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Sir_Toejam
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Postby Sir_Toejam » Sep 23 2006, 20:56

to speed up the developement when the hero has low knowledge...


ahem...

http://www.celestialheavens.com/forums/ ... php?t=3938

still, you have a point about early development. If offered arcane training before mana regeneration, it probably would be worth going that route instead.

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Postby okrane » Sep 23 2006, 20:59

yup... I am perfectly aware with the mod.... In fact I "never leave home without it" :)

and you see... in the post above... Adicto took Enlightment for Intelligence... and he found it was the only skill worth to mention...

I truly belive having a "no compromise" skill tree would give us the maximum of satisfaction :D

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Postby Adicto » Sep 23 2006, 21:45

okrane wrote:
-Enlightenment (Intelligence)
-Destructive Magic (Master of fire)
-Sorcery (Mana Regeneration, Erratic Mana)
-Luck (Soldier´s Luck, Warlock´s luck)
-Defense (Evasion)


And no Tactis???... and what do you do in the begining?
Tactics is brillant for your blood furies....

Replacing Logistics and Teleport Attack with Enlightment and Intelligence is indeed a tough call....

I prefer focusing the heroes towards the final battle. Enlightenment + Intelligence helps to kill neutral monsters in the begining using low level destructive spells (against shooters you can use your scouts as cannon folder while your hero kills them, and against walkers you can continue using the furies with normality). Logistics sometimes is useless, like in games with a small time limit or when an unbeatable neutral monster (you don´t have enough creatures/spells/something in this moment) blocks your path/mine/artefact/whatever. It´s just the way I play with dungeon.

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Postby okrane » Sep 23 2006, 22:20

yeah... but I still you take defense in stead of offense...
IMO dungeon is an offensive group... so attack is more suited to them...

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Postby Adicto » Sep 24 2006, 2:27

okrane wrote:yeah... but I still you take defense in stead of offense...
IMO dungeon is an offensive group... so attack is more suited to them...

Dungeon is an offensive faction, yes, but look at Attack skill & perks: only +15% to melee damage at expert, Battle Frenzy is useless for your troops because they are low in numbers, and you never should pick Archery because matriarchs are your only shooters (scouts are more like melee creatures). Only tactics worth it for dungeon.

In the other hand, with Defense all your troops receive -30% damage from melee attacks, with Evasion -20% from ranged attacks, and you have acces to Resistance (-15% magic damage) and Protection (+2 to Defense).

Warlocks earn almost 0 points of defense and dungeon army always is outnumbered... an ability that makes your troops last much longer while your destructive hero disintegrates the enemy troops, only can be VERY GOOD choice.

They say: "If the strength makes winners, have no weaknesses makes unbeatables" ;)

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Postby sylvanllewelyn » Sep 24 2006, 2:28

I don't pick enlightenment for wizards, because most of the stat points will go into knowledge that you'll have difficulty unloading before the end of the fight anyway. Plus their spells are not really dependent on spell power anyway. It really depends on whether my heroes will reach a high-enough level to justify 3 useful skills that I could have had. In the end, I usually pick it for my warlock.

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Postby Sir_Toejam » Sep 24 2006, 2:43

Dungeon is an offensive faction, yes, but look at Attack skill & perks: only +15% to melee damage at expert, Battle Frenzy is useless for your troops because they are low in numbers,


but with tactics, you have 3 very good melee units that can cross the field and do damage in one turn (lizards, maidens, and dragons), and the maidens can come back from that (so defense not an issue).

adding frenzy to your maidens works quite well.

I think if you can find something to boost initiative, offense makes dungeon an excellent first strike faction.

however, inferno also has units with better initiative that can cross entire field in one turn (cerberi, devils, and nightmares).

so, in that case, then yeah, defense would be the better choice.

so, it depends on the circumstances.

i personally HATE shooters, so i pick offense for dungeon so i can get my maidens and dragons in their face on the very first turn.

however, if i expected to be mostly fighting inferno, then defense probably would be a better choice.

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Postby MrSteamTank » Sep 24 2006, 5:24

Panda Tar wrote:That Eagle Eye ability...does anyone take it? I've never used so far.


If their were a large selection of spells that units and enemy heroes used then yes it would be pretty useful. Unfortunately this game has so few spells it's worthless. They would probably have to triple the amount of spells and add in at least 7-8 neutrals with spellcasting abilities to make me consider getting this skill.

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Postby Sir_Toejam » Sep 24 2006, 5:42

neutrals with spellcasting abilities:

mage
archmage
pit demons
pit lords
witches
matriarchs
djinn
master djinn
druids
archdruids
water elementals
archangels
clerics
priests
liches
archliches
sprites

that's more than 7-8, isn't it?

*shrug*

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Postby Adicto » Sep 24 2006, 13:59

but with tactics, you have 3 very good melee units that can cross the field and do damage in one turn (lizards, maidens, and dragons), and the maidens can come back from that (so defense not an issue).

But those creatures can cross the battlefield in one turn without tactics anyway (BF speed-8, GR speed-8, BD speed-9). Tactics only adds to them a bit of mobility. Evasion provides a great protection against the powerful shooters of other factions (skeleton archers, master hunters, archmages, marksmen, etc...), that one is much more useful than only one more square for your offensive troops.

The only inconvenient is that Defense is more difficult to obtain that Attack for a warlock.

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Postby DaemianLucifer » Sep 24 2006, 14:07

Tactics allows your troops to kill of enemy archers before they manage to shoot.Even if blocked,maydens can still penetrate and punch because of their high initiative.And without tactics,those units cannot reach all of the enemy in the first turn.

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Postby Adicto » Sep 24 2006, 14:35

DaemianLucifer wrote:Tactics allows your troops to kill of enemy archers before they manage to shoot.Even if blocked,maydens can still penetrate and punch because of their high initiative.And without tactics,those units cannot reach all of the enemy in the first turn.

¿¿...?? How can you hit succubi with blood furys if they are protected by pit lords and overseers? The enemy normally is clever enough to not leave his shooters unprotected against the first attack of your furys, and later he kills those b*****s to be able to move more troops. With blood furys you normally face the same melee troops in final battles with or without tactics.

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Postby cornellian » Sep 24 2006, 15:40

Tactics isn't half as useful as it is thought, simply because of MP.. I doubt most of you play multiplayer but using tactics against a human means having tactics used against yourself. This is as simple as it gets. You won't be able to reach his ranged troops, nor casters in your first turn because of tactics except for couple exceptions or inexperienced opponents, you merely will give his front troops to reach yours in the first turn as well...

There is one good side of tactics and that is if you place a 2x2 creature in front of your casters & ranged to provide a solid wall.. The rest has much less practical use compared to battle frenzy and archery. It may be great in campaigns and SP, but you should rarely have trouble defeating the AI anyway.

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Postby Grumpy Old Wizard » Sep 24 2006, 15:50

Sir_Toejam wrote:neutrals with spellcasting abilities:

mage
archmage
pit demons
pit lords
witches
matriarchs
djinn
master djinn
druids
archdruids
water elementals
archangels
clerics
priests
liches
archliches
sprites

that's more than 7-8, isn't it?

*shrug*


Creatures and their upgrades have little difference in spells so you can't count them twice.

Djiin and master djiin don't count because strangely you can't learn the spells they cast. I guess their spells are counted as abilities instead of spells. It should be changed such that arcane intuition does let you learn the spells they use.

I have selected arcane intuition before because a wizard can't afford to build up his mage's guild early. Learning spells from the archmagi and neutrals can be helpful though I admit this isn't the greatest of picks.

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Gandalf: "So do all who live to see such times but that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us."

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Postby Sir_Toejam » Sep 25 2006, 0:11

Creatures and their upgrades have little difference in spells so you can't count them twice.


??

archmages get fireball

pit lords get meteor shower

archangels get resurrect

should i keep going?

I'm truly puzzled by this line of reasoning.

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Postby Grumpy Old Wizard » Sep 25 2006, 1:25

Sir_Toejam wrote:
Creatures and their upgrades have little difference in spells so you can't count them twice.


??

archmages get fireball

pit lords get meteor shower

archangels get resurrect

should i keep going?

I'm truly puzzled by this line of reasoning.


Yes, I said little difference, not no difference.

I already said that I do sometimes take the skill since wizards are pressed for spells early on so I can learn from my archmages. It is puzzeling why wizards aren't allowed to learn from the djiin...that would make the skill so much more useful for them and make the djiin accomplish something before they die.

I am sorry to say that the archangel's resurrect is also an ability so you can't learn resurrect from them.

This leaves us with:

mage/archmage
pit demons/pit lords
witches/matriarchs
(xxxdjinn/xxxmaster djinn)
druids/archdruids
water elementals
(xxxarchangels)
clerics/priests
liches/archliches
sprites

GOW
Frodo: "I wish the ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened."

Gandalf: "So do all who live to see such times but that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us."


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