Do casting creatures need nerfing?

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Do casters need nerfing? How much?

>30%
5
19%
10-20%
7
27%
no change necessary
14
54%
 
Total votes: 26

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Sir_Toejam
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Do casting creatures need nerfing?

Postby Sir_Toejam » Sep 18 2006, 19:45

there was a bit of a sidetrack debate in the ghost thread discussing whether casting creatures are still too powerful after the 1.3 patch.

I din't really find it to be too much of an issue in the campaigns, but can see where a small group of druids or mages can stymie early development and exploration if placed in an inconvenient location.

so how much nerfing do folks think is needed, if any?

If any, I would think a bit of nerfing on the low end of the scale, balanced by increase in damage for larger stacks would be fine, maybe lower the defense of the casters a little bit

for example, if one druid does 36 damage with lighting, reduce that to 30, and maybe drop the defense 2 points. to balance that, with each increase of the stack size by 10 or so, increase the BASE damage output of each creature by 2 points, so a druid in a stack of 10 would do 32 base damage, in a stack of 20 would do 34, 30 would be back to 36, and this would increase as the stack size increases. leave the logarithmic formula for calculating overall damage the same as it is now.

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Postby Warlock » Sep 18 2006, 19:52

It depends on the creature. For example, Shadow Matriarchs are perhaps underpowered for their cost. Magi are borderline but I think they are more annoying than deadly (if you play smart you can get past them - if anything maybe just a nerf to the size of their neutral stacks).

The only one I really feel is bad are Druids. They have way too much HP for the amount of damage they do. Especially Arch-Druids.

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Postby Panda Tar » Sep 18 2006, 20:05

Hum, I think they should be like this:

Decreases defense for Druid a bit, keeps damage.

For spell casting matter. Depending on which side of the scale the unit is based on (I mean, might or magic), their spell damage should be increased or decreased.

Like: I see druids, more likely to be might than magic, almost balanced. For that matter, having their spell damage similar to their maximum damage, say, 12, each druid should add 12 to spell damage (lightning for instance). Simple as that. 10 druids, 120 damage. 1000 duids, 12k damage. Should be fair at small numbers and at high numbers. Maybe after 100 or 200, each 1 hundred of them would decrease 1% or total damage.

For Archmages, which are related more to magic, their damage as being 8 and their fist or heaven or fireball being, hum, 15? And so on.

For Pit Lords, allmighty, fireball being 10, 8...

They should, of course, have less spell points for this or that case. But I really believe that having a fixed damage for each unit should do for magic balance (I hate seeing 707097807907027362308460324K of sprites inflicting 80 damage using their wasp swarm on peasants <- non-magical resistant... :disagree: ).

One that I think is more like I said, but I'm not sure (just like almost anything on that game to be sure about), is Djinn Sultan's Decay's damage. It's strong enough to compare.
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Gaidal Cain
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Postby Gaidal Cain » Sep 18 2006, 20:13

I want linear damage for the spellcasters with damage spells, and I want their spells to be doing roughly the same damage as an equivalent shooter stack at half damage penalty. Druids should choose spellcasting or shooting depending on circumstances, not their own stack size...
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DaemianLucifer
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Postby DaemianLucifer » Sep 18 2006, 20:24

Voted option 2.Although,I think a complete change of the system needs to be changed.I like the idea of stacks having penalties to damage when they are bigger,but it should be applied to all(except the few that have a special negating it),and it should be less drastic.Also,Id like to see casters handled as in HIV,but with less spell damage per creature.And,Id also like to see buffs/curses affected by spellpower.With these changes I think they could be perfectly balanced.

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Jolly Joker
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Postby Jolly Joker » Sep 18 2006, 20:50

So you have a stack of Druids guarding something. Now, where is the difference between (Elder) Druids, Master Hunters, Succubi Mistresses, Cerberi, Griffins and even Marksmen? I see only one (see below). All can be very costly and you need to take special action to get them finished. Go for an upgrade or a specific unit and an ability, most of the time.
The only difference there is: the magic units will do hurting damage even in low numbers. But that's why they are no shooters, but magic units. Besides you sometimes have to take losses, no way around it, if you want to make progress.
I don't want to offend anyone here, but this is a bit, well, gutless. I mean, come, on do you want to go through a game like this completely unscarred? Never a single loss? Won't work and is boring.

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DaemianLucifer
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Postby DaemianLucifer » Sep 18 2006, 21:18

Jolly Joker wrote:So you have a stack of Druids guarding something. Now, where is the difference between (Elder) Druids, Master Hunters, Succubi Mistresses, Cerberi, Griffins and even Marksmen? I see only one (see below). All can be very costly and you need to take special action to get them finished. Go for an upgrade or a specific unit and an ability, most of the time.
The only difference there is: the magic units will do hurting damage even in low numbers. But that's why they are no shooters, but magic units. Besides you sometimes have to take losses, no way around it, if you want to make progress.


Well,griffins Ill gladly attack,and Ill win almost without losses.I never saw a neutral griffin dive even once(though even when the computer used it,I usually avoided).The rest,however,Ill think thrice before I even consider attacking them.Especially the mages and the druids.

And imagine if one player has mages and the other has squires as mine guardians(it happens a lot).It really gives an unfair advantage to the second one.

Jolly Joker wrote:I don't want to offend anyone here, but this is a bit, well, gutless. I mean, come, on do you want to go through a game like this completely unscarred? Never a single loss? Won't work and is boring.


Strangely,but thats exactly what turn retal means,and thats mostly why I hate it.

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Postby dragonn » Sep 18 2006, 22:07

Yeah the units spell system is the most stupidiest yet...

It makes me laugh when 20 Mages do almost us much damage as 50. The most anoying situation occurs when about 10 Mages/Druids are left from an arrow barrage (for instance) that killed about 100 of them. So what, they will do enough damage afterall, killing many of your precious archers or so...

I completly agree with DaemianLucifer. There should be a similiar system as in HIV, but a bit more balanced. Those Genies were a bit of a nuisance in HIV, when they've killed your Super-hero with one shoot, because his magic resistance was not enough :D (oh wait Heroes no longer fight on the battlefield :P)

Like this: Mage/Archmage 6-8 or less damage per level with Magic fist and 10-15 or less with Fireball and so on...
Last edited by dragonn on Sep 18 2006, 22:11, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby dragonn » Sep 18 2006, 22:10

Jolly Joker wrote: I mean, come, on do you want to go through a game like this completely unscarred? Never a single loss? Won't work and is boring.


When I played HIII or HIV my priority was to save as many units. It was my way of playing, sometimes I even repeated some battles to try a diffrent startegy and save as many units as it was possible. I just couldn't stand my poor dragons being killed like that :P
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Postby Adicto » Sep 18 2006, 23:31

Do casting creatures need nerfing?

Only offensive casters need nerfing (druids, archmages, pit lords), all the other casters are very poor neutral monsters because they spend some turns casting dark or light magic instead of attacking.

Anyway matrons, archlichs and inquisitors are more likely "heavy" shooters than casters.

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Postby Grumpy Old Wizard » Sep 19 2006, 0:50

I voted no change to casters. Yes, they can be very dangerous and hinder your progress, but so can other units, as JJ said. Master hunters and marksmen are both good good examples. If the academy gets yet another nerf they might as well replace them with another faction. :)

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Postby Alamar » Sep 19 2006, 1:40

Gaidal Cain wrote:I want linear damage for the spellcasters with damage spells, and I want their spells to be doing roughly the same damage as an equivalent shooter stack at half damage penalty. Druids should choose spellcasting or shooting depending on circumstances, not their own stack size...


I agree 100%!!

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Postby Cyrox » Sep 19 2006, 1:43

No change to castors. They're fine as they are. Except for the bug that they do more damage as seperate stacks than as a single stack with the same amt of troops.

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asandir
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Postby asandir » Sep 19 2006, 1:46

sadly it's not a bug, but a "feature" i could wish it was a lot more linear, but sadly this is not the case
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Gaidal Cain
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Postby Gaidal Cain » Sep 19 2006, 8:17

Jolly Joker wrote:So you have a stack of Druids guarding something. Now, where is the difference between (Elder) Druids, Master Hunters, Succubi Mistresses, Cerberi, Griffins and even Marksmen?


The difference is that in low number, the Druids will be doing more damage with their lightning bolt tghan the shooters will (since I won't attack until I've fast enough units to cross the field in one turn and can thus avoid the no-distance penalty area), and won't be prevented from doing that even by closing in on them. It's also of very little help to take out most of the creatures in a stack of druids.

The only difference there is: the magic units will do hurting damage even in low numbers. But that's why they are no shooters, but magic units. Besides you sometimes have to take losses, no way around it, if you want to make progress.


Yes, but why should that be true only for casters then? Random and unfair, if you ask me. Make caster damage linear, and give us simultaneous retal, and you'll see much more attrition, spread out over several battles, just not high attrition whenever you go up against casters.
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asandir
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Postby asandir » Sep 19 2006, 8:32

indeed, that's the crux of the issue right there
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Postby okrane » Sep 19 2006, 8:58

I just hope that all the talking we're doing here will finally have some use, because I get the feeling that the creators didn't spent alot of time thinking about fans when they made the game or released the patches...

I belive casters should be nerfed when in small stacks and buffed when in large stacks... I liked the linear magic system from H4... it should be the same...

Otherwise you would definately fear casters near a mine (mostly if you are academy and you desperately need that mine) and hate the casters in your army, which, in high numbers, won't be as nearly as dangerous.

I rarely remember casting a spell with my archmagi(oh excuse me... archmages :p )... just maybe when some of my creatures got in the way...

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Nebs
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Postby Nebs » Sep 19 2006, 13:22

No change, I like them casters just fine.

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Postby sezerp » Sep 19 2006, 13:49

Jolly Joker wrote:The only difference there is: the magic units will do hurting damage even in low numbers.


Which is terribly unbalancing... Wouldn't be if druids were neutral.
As it is now: You wipe 50% of enemy's druids ? Who cares, remaining half is enough to kill you. OTOH you are better player and have twice as many druids as your oponent - doesn't matter either, unless you split them, that is. This is sooo wrong...
Last edited by sezerp on Sep 19 2006, 15:14, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby ThunderTitan » Sep 19 2006, 14:16

Casters just need to stop getting less dmg as their numbers increase and the dmg balanced a bit. Should be more then enough.
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