Massive changes in resource demands! Different game now!

The new Heroes games produced by Ubisoft. Please specify which game you are referring to in your post.

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Jolly Joker
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Massive changes in resource demands! Different game now!

Postby Jolly Joker » Sep 14 2006, 10:07

I checked the resource and money demands changes and they are brutal - and extremely effective, I think.
1) Most notably, money demands have been dropped for level 7s - CONSIDERABLY. For example, intead of 20000/30000 in Academy they cost 12000/12000 now! Necropolis level 7 cost 6000/8000. Most expensive is Dungeon now with 12000/15000, (for level 7 only, of course).
That means, moneywise, level 7 have just become an option to build.
2) Resources: let me tell you, they have gone up - except for Academy, all in all. Academy got a lot better structured: Genies are buildable now, for example. Haven and Sylvans got MASSIVE Wood increases, Haven even has to pay precious resources now. Haven even has Ore increases. All in all reource needs seem to be more unbalanced (meaning, that towns tend to need more of certain and less of certain other resources).

I think it has become another game now because in general building cost less money and more resources which will make building all in all more difficult, but will leave more money to buy creatures AND have a chance to go for level 7. The balance has been changed completely here.

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Bonzer
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Postby Bonzer » Sep 14 2006, 10:13

Hi JJ,
Just replied to a similar post re Academy, (at the same time as you posted this I think).

Anyway, the point being as long as mapmakers know the development costs, they can make resources available as required. So balancing and therefore type of gameplay / strategy required should be up to them.
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Postby Rainalkar » Sep 14 2006, 10:28

That is excellent. I still can't test it myself though, but it seems that the changes are very good. Heck, Titans for 24000! They lowered the price by more than 50%.

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Postby Jolly Joker » Sep 14 2006, 10:49

Here are the absolute changes (not mentioned -> not changed)
ACADEMY: -26000 Gold; -10 Ore; -5 Crystals; -2 Gems; +10 Sulfur; +13 Mercury
DUNGEON: -23500 Gold; -19 Gems; -10 Mercury; +15 Crystal; +15 Sulfur
HAVEN: -31000 Gold; + 5 C; + 10 M; +10 S; +20 G; +15 O; +50 W
INFERNO: -19000 Gold; -8 C; -8 G; +15 S; +20 W
NECRO (!): -21000 Gold; -5 S; -15 C; -15 G; +30 W; +33 M (!)
SYLVANS: -12000 Gold; -38 M; -38 S; +7 C; +8 G; +40 W

On first look the changes are very well implemented as well.

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Postby Rainalkar » Sep 14 2006, 10:54

What was lowered in Haven money buildup? Archangles were 50000, the total is lower by 31000, I guess the Archangels now cost cca 25000, but what about the remaining 6? Paladins?

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Postby Grumpy Old Wizard » Sep 14 2006, 11:03

Jolly Joker wrote:Here are the absolute changes (not mentioned -> not changed)
ACADEMY: -26000 Gold; -10 Ore; -5 Crystals; -2 Gems; +10 Sulfur; +13
On first look the changes are very well implemented as well.


The time frame of the academy's "breaks" and increases in costs has about finished killing them.

http://www.celestialheavens.com/forums/ ... 3503#83503

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Postby Jolly Joker » Sep 14 2006, 11:23

GOW, you have no idea what you are talking about. Seriously.
Rainalkar: Haven money changes: Royal Griffin down 2000 to 4000; Paladin upgrade down 1000 to 9000. Angels down 10000 to 10000; upgrade down 18000 to 12000.

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Postby Rainalkar » Sep 14 2006, 11:29

ok thanks.

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Jolly Joker
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Postby Jolly Joker » Sep 14 2006, 12:25

Actually I have missed something: The mage guilds have become cheaper. You need now 8 of each precious resources less to build all 5 mage guilds which is a rather nice thing.
That leads to the following figures:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


ACADEMY: -26000 Gold; -10 Ore; -13 Crystals; -10 Gems; +2 Sulfur; +5 Mercury
DUNGEON: -23500 Gold; -27 Gems; -18 Mercury; +7 Crystal; +7 Sulfur
HAVEN: -31000 Gold; -3 C; + 2 M; +2 S; +12 G; +15 O; +50 W
INFERNO: -19000 Gold; -16 C; -16 G; +7 S; -8 M; +20 W
NECRO (!): -21000 Gold; -13 S; -23 C; -23 G; +30 W; +25 M (!)
SYLVANS: -12000 Gold; -46 M; -46 S; -1 C; +40 W

Note that this figures now are a bit misleading. Basically creature dwellings have become much more resource intense while magic has vecome a lot cheaper. This will eventually lead to mage guild levels and level 7 basic creature dwellings being build instead of upgrades of lower levels.

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Postby Sir_Toejam » Sep 16 2006, 0:30

the mage guilds are not the same costs across the board:

all mage guilds are now half the rare resource costs, level 3-5, except:

necro, which is unchanged (still costs 10 of each rare to build level 5)

and dungeon, which costs only 4 of each rare resource to build the level 5 guild.

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Postby WinterIsComing » Sep 16 2006, 2:24

Funny how the two building that needed the most re-balancing were left untouched, I am of course talking about Spawn of Chaos and Sacrificial Pit.

also now the drastic increases of wood/ore of some factions has made them almost unplayable.

Also funny how lazy Nival is at documenting and explaining any changes

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Postby MistWeaver » Sep 16 2006, 14:42

Jolly Joker wrote:Actually I have missed something: The mage guilds have become cheaper. You need now 8 of each precious resources less to build all 5 mage guilds which is a rather nice thing.
That leads to the following figures:


Actually you have missed one more thing. There is a bug in game mechanics in 1.3 that leaves necro guild prices without changes

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Postby Jolly Joker » Sep 16 2006, 15:04

What makes you think that's a bug? Dungeon has different costs either.

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Postby MistWeaver » Sep 16 2006, 15:41

Jolly Joker wrote:What makes you think that's a bug? Dungeon has different costs either.


Lets see updated data files for level 5 MG:

Here is prices for Dungeon

<Wood>5</Wood>
<Ore>5</Ore>
<Mercury>4</Mercury>
<Crystal>4</Crystal>
<Sulfur>4</Sulfur>
<Gem>4</Gem>
<Gold>1000</Gold>

Here is for all others except for necro:

<Wood>5</Wood>
<Ore>5</Ore>
<Mercury>5</Mercury>
<Crystal>5</Crystal>
<Sulfur>5</Sulfur>
<Gem>5</Gem>
<Gold>1000</Gold>

Necro has no Guild update file. Just if it has been forgoten. So its price remains old.

Does someone really think that its not a bug ?
If so, nival has worst balance update methods ever, and H5 cd can go directly to the shelf

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Postby Alamar » Sep 16 2006, 15:53

On heroic difficulty the cost of mages and djinn basically mean if you don't have a resource rich map that you're going to be stuck with L1-L3 until you take a mercury and/or sulfer mine.

I suspect that the resource costs are OK on hard difficulty but I am not convinced that the resource costs are "right" on heroic difficulty.

I'll see how the game develops but with Academy not having early mages while several other good/strong factions still getting their L1-L4 in the first week may hurt a lot ...

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Postby ThunderTitan » Sep 17 2006, 0:01

Dude, PWNED:

Plemenit wrote: http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/ ... 042284/p/2

Jolly, it's funny that you say these changes are so "wow wow wow". Roll Eyes Becouse, last time I checked this game was so perfect for you. [So perfect that you felt (and still feel) the urge to spit venom on every homm5-"complainer" on this forum.]

If these changes, by your own words, completely changed this "flawless" game, how is it still a "perfect" game? Massive resource tweaks, creature tweaks.. you even say it's a "different game". When people complained about balance I remember you all over the place saying it's completely balanced.
And these changes are- BALANCE changes..
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Postby LordErtz » Sep 17 2006, 1:13

wow, I second that motion

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Postby sylvanllewelyn » Sep 17 2006, 1:44

Yeah, I noticed how Haven suddenly had these resource demands. Boo. At least that's more gold to train more of my beloved marksmen.

It's kind of sad how they reduced the gold cost of level 7's though. First they made the good move of changing the defense skill mechanism to give more importance to low level creatures, then they realised they went overboard and had to remedy it with lowered gold cost with those dwellings. I hope they do bring back the very high upgrade costs of the dwellings in future patches though. An upgrade should be a real choice with real oppertunity costs.

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Postby Jolly Joker » Sep 17 2006, 7:03

ThunderTitan wrote:Dude, PWNED:

Plemenit wrote: http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/ ... 042284/p/2

Jolly, it's funny that you say these changes are so "wow wow wow". Roll Eyes Becouse, last time I checked this game was so perfect for you. [So perfect that you felt (and still feel) the urge to spit venom on every homm5-"complainer" on this forum.]

If these changes, by your own words, completely changed this "flawless" game, how is it still a "perfect" game? Massive resource tweaks, creature tweaks.. you even say it's a "different game". When people complained about balance I remember you all over the place saying it's completely balanced.
And these changes are- BALANCE changes..


Don't get overboard, TT. I never said the game was perfect. Instead I said that I thought Necro was overpowered. I even suggested changes. I furthermore said, that the buildings costs could be adjusted. I already said in the beta that mage guilds would be too resource intensive.
Just because I disagree with some people's attitude of trashing a game because they either hate the producer or, in this case, think the game isn't inventive enough, it doesn't mean I like everything. I just don't start bashing onto Nival, because - and that might be my real fault considering the recent poll here - I like what Nival does with the game and I see that they are working on it.

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Postby ThunderTitan » Sep 17 2006, 10:01

Doesn't change the fact that that was funny. As for going overboard, that not my post. :devil:
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