1.3 Academy

The new Heroes games produced by Ubisoft. Please specify which game you are referring to in your post.
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Darkion
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Unread postby Darkion » 19 Sep 2006, 16:05

PhoenixReborn wrote:If you are speaking about finding objects on the adventure map I would recommend selecting "classic homm view" from the graphics options menu. Also, pressing 'alt' (as of 1.3) causes interactive objects (resources, dwellings) to glow even if they are behind things.
Thanks for the information. I really don't have a problem with the gameplay myself, but I have a couple of friends that dislike rotating the map and might benefit from the <alt> tip.

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Unread postby LindaG » 19 Sep 2006, 17:30

PhoenixReborn wrote:If you are speaking about finding objects on the adventure map I would recommend selecting "classic homm view" from the graphics options menu. Also, pressing 'alt' (as of 1.3) causes interactive objects (resources, dwellings) to glow even if they are behind things.
You can do that? I didn't know that. I will have to try both of those suggestions next time. Thank you. :)

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Unread postby dragonn » 19 Sep 2006, 21:34

DaemianLucifer wrote:
okrane wrote:the game actually runs smoother in 1.3 for me too... but the issue here was the balancing not the graphics... I think we all agree that the graphics are great.
I dont.Seen better earlier,and with less demanding engine.
Yeah, even Nivals earlier game Etherlords looks very similiar to HV in my opinion, and the game is much older. The game runs a lot more smoother. I think that there is a number of some kind of graphic effects that make the game slower like those moving trees or light effects...and that aren't essential if you ask me...
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Unread postby Sir_Toejam » 19 Sep 2006, 22:18

ok, so after all the whining about academy, how hard does anybody think it would be to simply modify the data files to change the building requirements?

it took me one day to figure out how to modify and calculate the formulas for all the skill trees necessary to change how gaining ultimate specializations work, and I posted the mod today over in the mods section.

I've never tried to mod h5 before. It was friggin' easy.

less whining, more work, people!

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Unread postby LindaG » 19 Sep 2006, 22:26

Sir_Toejam wrote:ok, so after all the whining about academy, how hard does anybody think it would be to simply modify the data files to change the building requirements?

it took me one day to figure out how to modify and calculate the formulas for all the skill trees necessary to change how gaining ultimate specializations work, and I posted the mod today over in the mods section.

I've never tried to mod h5 before. It was friggin' easy.

less whining, more work, people!
Thanks for that, Sir_Toejam. :)

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Unread postby ThunderTitan » 19 Sep 2006, 22:28

Sir_Toejam wrote:less whining, more work, people!
Well i guess we don't need Nival anymore. But what to call the project? Equilibris is already taken. Balancis? Fixitus? Rake of Drogs?
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Unread postby Sir_Toejam » 19 Sep 2006, 22:37

rake of drogs?

I like it!

there still seems a lack of general interest in modding this game, which is puzzling considering how easy it seems to be.

Yes, at this point, with the map editor released, all we need to do is figure out which data files are associated with which aspect of the game, and we can leave Nival behind.

there has been discussion about creating a modding guide, both here and at elrath. there is a faq in the modcrafting section on this very site, and a similar one on elrath.

you can also simply open up any mod to see which particular files were modified, and then from that figure out which original files/directories in the main data.pak file need to be extracted for modification.

that's how i figured out how to do the skill requirement changes, and modify heroes.

Yes, if you don't like what Nival has done, there are a GREAT many things that are very easy to change.

go over to the modcrafting guild forum, read the faq, open some mods, and see for yourself.

the only tools you need are winzip or winrar and a text editor.

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Unread postby ThunderTitan » 19 Sep 2006, 22:45

Sir_Toejam wrote: there still seems a lack of general interest in modding this game, which is puzzling considering how easy it seems to be.
Most ppl are prob waiting for Nival to be done with it. It's kinda stupid to have to mod the mods whenever a new patch comes out. And maybe some even hpe Nival will fix/balance everything eventualy.

Drowned in Drakes might be a more apt title for a WoG-like mod.
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Unread postby Sir_Toejam » 19 Sep 2006, 22:47

the only changes that need to be made to mods to get them to work with new patches is to simply update the time stamps on the files inside of the mods.

uh, that's not exactly difficult.

less excuses, more modding.

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Unread postby ThunderTitan » 19 Sep 2006, 22:50

Sir_Toejam wrote: uh, that's not exactly difficult.
No, but it sounds tedious. But don't worry, i'm sure there are gonna be more mods in the future.
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Unread postby DaemianLucifer » 19 Sep 2006, 22:53

Sir_Toejam wrote: there still seems a lack of general interest in modding this game, which is puzzling considering how easy it seems to be.
The thing is that heroes have always been very closed and unmodable,unlike civ.So modders arent that established,as opposed to the mapmakers.But major mods will come.

How bout calling the new ubermod:The Disciples of Aaeglr? :devious:

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Unread postby Sir_Toejam » 19 Sep 2006, 23:45

there's no need to wait for major mods.

that's what I'm saying.

don't like it when you see "not enought movement points"?

change it!

there are a myriad of little things that can easily be modded with very little time investment.

then, if you want to immortalize your changes, just send me a PM and I'll put it up in the mod section.

it really is that easy.

3/4 of the complaints i have seen about homm5 from a gameplay standpoint are easily modded.

open up the data file and explore around a bit.

you will see dozens of things that you might want to change, and it really only takes a few hours to change and test your efforts.

all of the code is written in XML for chrissakes!

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Unread postby DaemianLucifer » 19 Sep 2006, 23:51

You are forgething the second truth about the people:

People are lazy.

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Unread postby ThunderTitan » 19 Sep 2006, 23:51

Sir_Toejam wrote: 3/4 of the complaints i have seen about homm5 from a gameplay standpoint are easily modded.
Unfortunatly mods aren't the original game. :disagree: But you're right, more ppl should make mods for H5.

Draconic Deluge here we come.
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Unread postby Sir_Toejam » 20 Sep 2006, 01:54

yes, yes, talk is cheap.

so what do people want?

reduce the cost of the mage guild by 5 sulfur, say?

be specific, and I can kick out a mod to change whatever building costs for the academy most think is fair in about 30 minutes.

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Unread postby asandir » 20 Sep 2006, 02:00

and that is why we love you modders, i've played with the files a bit to change things to how i like them, some skill changes and the devil/arch devil mod .... but now i am a bit over HV .... so unless some friendly modders can make it more fun, I may be stuck going back to previous iterations .... but i hope you guys can fix it
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Unread postby Sir_Toejam » 20 Sep 2006, 02:26

and that is why we love you modders, i've played with the files a bit to change things to how i like them, some skill changes and the devil/arch devil mod
US modders?

you can't count yourself out yet.

:-D

besides, the map editor JUST came out. You know you will want to check out some of the better maps in a month or so.

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Unread postby Jolly Joker » 20 Sep 2006, 06:51

Let's try a more in-depth analysis of resource demands.
Let's base the analysis on maps where you start with a naked town at level 1 and one Hero and of course Heroic difficulty. Example for a map: No Man's Land.
I'm starting with Sylvans. Their problem is that ALL dwellings require Wood, the upgrades as well as the "cheap" fillers like Market and Blacksmith or the Level 1 upgrade. So the problem is reaching the magical level 9 (allowing City Hall and Druids) as well as finding the 15 Wood for the Hunter dwelling: Tavern and Fairies = 10 W. Town Hall. Dancers for another 10. You are now at level 5. you need 4 more, before you can build Druids (needing no wood). In case you got or will get 3 Gems somewhere until then you may try with Market and Mystic Pond for another 5 Wood. That leaves the Hunter dwelling for another 15 and one other which MIGHT just be the resource silo, but this will deplete your money (you'll need another 5000 for City Hall soon) or else the Mage Guild (Blacksmith or Sprite upgrade will be 5 Wood as well).
This will bring the needed Wood to either 40 or 45. Even if you hit the Sawmill on day 1, you'll get 12 Wood from that and you start with 10 = 22. That means there are 18 or 23 missing, depending on your last decision. Note that we are talking about getting a level 3 dwelling AND a level 4 sometime in week 2. If you find three piles of Wood (2 at the mill and one someplace else) you may be lucky and reach 18, but you may simply not. If not you have a tight decision: if you forego the Hunters you may reach level 9 with other dwellings needing 10 Wood less. The wisest decision may just be, to forego Hunters completely and go for Sprite upgrade immediately. Your troops for week 1 would then be some 30 Sprites (pretty useful in 6 stacks) and a stack of, well, about 20 Dancers, which should be good enough for the basic things. Check this for yourself. We are talking here about not building the Hunters which is a very serious problem and something like heresy for any serious Sylvan player. Not, that this would solve the problems. You still need 15 for the Hunters, and later on 5 for the Unicorns and another whopping 15 for Treants - not to mention the 5 for each mage guild level. What you need is access to water - without the need to build a boat.
Now compare this with Academy. You can always build level 1-3 in week one, no problem. However, if you want to have Mages as well you need to find not only 5 Sulfur, you need to find 5 Gems as well. Since you might like MG level 2 soon you'll like to find SIX S and G and 1 M. A realistic 8 dwelling start is Tavern, Gremlins, MG, Blacksmith, Golems, Town Hall plus Gargoyles and either Market or Gremlin upgrade or MG level 2. This will involve 20 Wood and 25 Ore with a Market or 15 Wood and 30 Ore with Gremlin upgrade or 20 Wood and 30 Ore with MG level 2. MG level 2 would make it necessary to gain 1 Mercury and 1 Gem at least.
What about Necro? You cannot get more than level 3 in week one since Vampire is level 9. We have Tavern, Skeletons, Skeleton upgrade, Zombies, Town Hall, Mage Guild for 10 Wood and 20 Ore - easy. The decision is, though: Fort and Ruined Tower? This will bring things up to 25/25; possible, but not without a price: it will deplete money and Wood - money you can use for City Hall/Resource Silo, Wood you need for the Vampires. Furthermore you need Sulfur for the Pillar of Bones sooner or later, otherwise you won't get your lvl 5. The bottom line is, that you will simply forego the Ghosts (which makes the Haunted Mine ability very tempting), trusting your Skelly Archers to do the work. You have serious building problems.
With Haven you have the advantage that you have the 3 level 1 buildings that cost only money. What you want is Tavern, Blacksmith, Town Hall, Archer, Peasant, Footman, Griffin and an 8th one. This is 30/30. If the 8th is a MG lvl 1 you are at 35/35. If you have problems you can easily leave out the Footman. So Haven is not easy to go for the best, but possible, plus you have a lot of options. The problems for Haven start in week 2, btw. They will need only a few of the precious resources but lots of Wood and Ore to get onwards.
Let's have a look on Dungeon and Inferno lastly then to round this little survey up.
Tavern, Scouts, Town Hall, Mage Guild, Maidens. This is 15/10. If you can afford the long view, you will want to proceed with Blacksmith and Minotaurs (end of week 1) to get them build. The eight building doesn't really matter. The problem here is not so much the resource need. The problem may be that you cannot afford to take the long view and have to go for either a level 2 mage guild or an upgrade or two (or all together to get things rolling - which would leave you with level 1 and 2 only after week 1 as well. However, with a view on week 2, Dungeon build-up is pretty clear-cut in terms of what you can and what you cannot do. of course the missing Fort hurts Dungeon a lot because they need the Citadel and Castle.
Lastly Inferno. With Inferno the problem is the Cerberus building. Tavern, Imps, Town Hall, 2 out of (Market, Blacksmith, Familiar Upgrade Demon Tower and Mage Guild) and Hell Hounds leave us at day 7 for one other building in week one and another one for reaching level 9. The Cerberus upgrade costs 15 Wood and 5 Sulfur which a) will, if possible at all deplete your wood: you'll have paid 25 Wood for the doggies alone and there are plenty of buildings that cost 5 more Wood; and b) you'll need 2 Sulfur and another 3 when you want to build Succubi. This is where the building trouble really starts for Inferno.
So for Inferno that leaves you either with a good force to take the precious mines and depleted resources, or with a mediocre, vulnerable force, but immediate building options.

So where does that leave Academy? In a very good situation, I'd think. You have lots of possibilities and chances. You may pick resources at start which will give you additional Gems; even if you play with random heroes you may get Havez. You may have a nice destructive spell in the guild (but Stone Spikes and Mark of the Wizard don't work together). You may get 5 Sulfur one way or another. At least you have a chance to go for your level 4 in week one.
No, I don't think Academy is bad.

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Unread postby Mytical » 20 Sep 2006, 07:03

Well JJ, as I said before all I can do is base it on MY experience, not everybody elses. I've played the map many many times since 1.3 came out. Just to see how correct you were in the resource balancing. Sorry but I seem to be playing a different map then you, though i did play it on 'easy'. Sad to say academy really was the most pathetic of the towns. Maybe on heroic things do change, could not honestly tell you. However, don't just dismiss my findings just because they don't fit into your world. I worked hard to actually take what you said into consideration, the least you could do is do the same. With all things being equal, regardless of setting, all towns should have an equal chance. I have not found this so. And if you put the AI on academy, then it becomes even easier...which I find a little odd. I would have to test on heroic to see how accurate you are, and believe me I will. For now I will trust your findings, but I can honestly say...on easy things are NOT balanced. Beginning players try things out on easy usually before anything, and if you want to get more players, you have to balance things on easy. Die hard fans, like myself, maybe able to defeat the computer on heroic, but what about the new people? Just ignore them? they don't matter? I think a readjustment should be made, you think it's ok. Lets agree to disagree. Not everybody will see things your way, or my way either.
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Unread postby asandir » 20 Sep 2006, 07:27

certainly true myst, and good on you for trying it out as well, but I think most people will agree with you, I certainly do
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