1.3 Academy

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atma6
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Unread postby atma6 » 15 Sep 2006, 15:43

Why are people acting as the Academy is the only town to have a resource cost shift. Really GOW before saying how doomed the Academy is you have to acknowledge the price hike in other factions, such as the increased need for mercury in the Necropolis. This makes it harder for them to get a strong start the same way you are complaining about the Academy.

I think that the changes are positive because it helps take the pressure off of gems and ore. So now as was mentioned you can make artifacts using them without sacrificing as much.

You keep saying that the mage's guild cost reduction effects every faction so it doesn't figure into a mage's advantage. If you think about it, it does. As most factions don't rely on rare reasources as much and half of them are not magically inclined. This change doesn't effect them that much, but for a Wizard it allows them to build the mage's guild without crippling their economy and get far more spells than they otherwise would have been able to. Also the resource cost restructuring effects the ability to buy them too as you now don't have 25 Sulfur and 0 Gems.

The cost of Titans has been drastically reduced, which even though its a level 7 unit upgrade, is extremely important as it is THE upgrade of the Academy. Rakshasa's are harder to get, which is bad, but at least the Djinns aren't so many gems that its not even worth purchasing their dwelling, and contrary to popular opinion, Djinns can be very useful, not Titan or Rakshasa useful mind you, but still far better than some units in other factions (Horned Demons, Zombies, Minotaurs, Bone Dragons).

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Mytical
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Unread postby Mytical » 15 Sep 2006, 16:46

Hmm all I can say is what I personally have experienced. Keep in mind I don't play MP online. After the 1.3 patch I have done a few maps with academy that I tried on academy in just about every patch. Keeping in mind that I actually like academy despite all of its hardships, here is what I personally have discovered through trial and error. Academy is harder to get going, and harder to keep going. I've tried easy up to heroic and it is the same regardless of selection (though of course it gets even harder the harder you choose). There just isn't enough resources to make a difference even on really large maps. By the time I get academy to the former glory I usually got it to, the enemy has about 1.5 to 2x the ammount of creatures it did before. The problem with this patch is, for academy, that you just dont have the resources to go arround. Regardless of if you purchase the basic only or not, your climbing the tier tree is so slow it is not even funny. I have tried many tactics, and tried many builds...it all ends up the same. Now MP against humans may indeed be different, but the AI seems to have absolutely no problem building regardless of type of town I put them on. The only way I can top them is forcing them to choose Academy, and then they are way to weak unless on hard/heroic. So, I've tested, I've trialed, and my verdict of academy 1.3 is ...thumbs down. They really need to readjust this to even out the towns...again.
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Jolly Joker
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Unread postby Jolly Joker » 15 Sep 2006, 17:53

But to make this a conclusive experience you should play that same map with each of the other towns on every difficulty level. They might play the same hard way.

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Alamar
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Unread postby Alamar » 16 Sep 2006, 16:39

Jolly Joker wrote:But to make this a conclusive experience you should play that same map with each of the other towns on every difficulty level. They might play the same hard way.
In my current 6 team hotseat game [1 of each faction] on heroic difficulty level Academy seems slow compared to other factions.

For example Haven can still build L1-L4 very early so their first week or two isn't terribly effected. Necros seem to build fairly fast. Sylvan is more wood heavy but you can still often get hunters in the first week. Inferno hasn't changed too much from what I can tell. Dungeon's early builds don't seem bad but the resources later on can catch up to you.

This leaves Academy behind the eight ball with both Mages and Djinn needing 10 precious resources apiece and you only start with 5 on heroic. I haven't looked for creature stat changes but it seems like they've made Academy's early game harder which means they will have a harder time expanding, etc.

One very nice thing that I like is that now building the resource silo will likely pay for itself. Balancing the 5K gold it costs vs. the resources that it gives is now a harder decision so I like that.

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Mytical
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Unread postby Mytical » 17 Sep 2006, 07:25

Ok I am back, I decided to take up the challenge of No Man's Land. I decided to do this not with every town, but with every town 6 times (that is why it has taken me so long to get back to this). I played them all on Easy, so as to have the most resources you can get sans cheating. Here are my personal findings.

All the towns are indeed a little harder to play, but there are some that just stick out as really really lagging. Necromancers really really got blasted with the raise dead spell nerfs and there buildings are harder to get going. Seems either there is a major bug, or somebody really really dropped the ball with Raise Dead. I can see it affecting a unit for an entire combat, but if you raise dead on say Skeleton archers, all they are good for after is castle defense, you can never seem to cast raise dead on them again...ever. Unless of course you make a new stack of them and the new stack doesn't include a single unit of the old stack. Any that you add to the old stack also get the penalty, despite not being arround when the first spell is cast....just one word...Huh????

It would have been more humane for them to get rid of Academy town altogether then what remains now. They take forever to get going, and even with all the Necromancer and other towns faults now, are just impossibly weak. Only hope you have is setting all your opponits to Academy (and this on easy).

Haven is one of the easiest to get up and going, but still a lot slower then one would like. On easy you should at least be able to get tier 5 creatures by end of the first week, but good luck with that if you want fort, ect.

Sylvan took a hit, but still pretty awesome. Since there level 3 creatures are really something they don't suffer as much as most. Also wood is common, but never seems enough to go arround, and this hurts the once mighty nation.

Inferno seems to be about the same, but can be a little rougher to do then Sylvan do to rarer resources.

Dungeon can be hit or miss, but I honestly could not tell if it was the map or the town itself. Perhaps No Man's Land is not a good test for Dungeon.

Well that about sums it up, don't believe me, do the test yourselves. All 6, 6 times each, on easy. Then tell me what you think.
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Qlczas-PL
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Unread postby Qlczas-PL » 17 Sep 2006, 08:44

with Academy Castle Death... This game is also Dead to me...

Rest in Pieces Homm5...

I'll wait for Disciples III ;/ EVEN without Hordes of the Undead at the start.
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DaemianLucifer
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Unread postby DaemianLucifer » 17 Sep 2006, 12:54

So first they decided to speed up the game,but they found it to be too fast(I didnt notice,it seemed sluggish to me),so they decided to slow it down? :| They bugged tactics phase(one of the very few excelent features that they added),they bugged raise dead,and they destroyed the academy completelly?So,this patch is even vorse then the 1.2?Glad I didnt instal it then,since it seems to me that the original version,though pretty bugged,and pretty slow,and pretty unfinised,is way better then the patched one.Am I right?

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Alamar
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Unread postby Alamar » 17 Sep 2006, 12:57

I'm happy to do my testing on heroic & hotseat a MP map to see how things shake out.

Early on [first 2 weeks] Academy seems hosed esp. if you have tough guardians sitting on sulfer mines [mages] and mercury [djinn].

Aside from that though many of the other factions are playing about the same in the first couple of weeks. You may have to wait an extra day or two here & there but I'm OK with that part of the game.

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okrane
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Unread postby okrane » 18 Sep 2006, 15:57

I totaly agree that academy is having a real hard time in the early stages of developement. I'm always very low on resources and my main hero can't handle tougher creeps...
Even the fact that the wizard class hero receives only knowledge is annoying.... It could be useful for item creation... but usually I hardly have anything left to spare...
His primary skills make him very poor in battle... I even took enlightment for a boost in his stats and I ended up with 17 knowledge, 1 attack 1 defense, and 4 power... at level 12 or so...

What academy hero do you like? I'm using Havez... I find balista really useful in the begining...

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Grumpy Old Wizard
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Unread postby Grumpy Old Wizard » 18 Sep 2006, 17:52

My favorite is Jhora. She starts with eldrich arrow. I try to get her to expert sorcery asap. I also try to develop enlightenment early on so she hopefully gets some spellpower.
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Arqane
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Unread postby Arqane » 18 Sep 2006, 19:18

With the generally lower gold costs now, I'll usually grab an extra hero for taking out an extra mine or two. Especially on higher difficulty levels, I'll often build the Artifact Merchant and get one of the good cheaper (<10k gold) artifacts. They can make a difference, and gold isn't the major concern.

Strictly speaking, my Dungeon strategy slowed down alot more than my Academy strategy. I used to rush up to Blood Furies and Deep Hydras, but now the cost is usually too high for the Deep Hydras before week 3 (and regular ones aren't worth it).

I still regularly win the first 2 weeks worth of battles with Razzak, even without MGs. I haven't even purchased the building in the first couple weeks since they were weakened, and it really hasn't made much of a difference.

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PhoenixReborn
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Unread postby PhoenixReborn » 18 Sep 2006, 22:04

DaemianLucifer wrote:So first they decided to speed up the game,but they found it to be too fast(I didnt notice,it seemed sluggish to me),so they decided to slow it down? :| They bugged tactics phase(one of the very few excelent features that they added),they bugged raise dead,and they destroyed the academy completelly?So,this patch is even vorse then the 1.2?Glad I didnt instal it then,since it seems to me that the original version,though pretty bugged,and pretty slow,and pretty unfinised,is way better then the patched one.Am I right?
I have no idea what you are talking about here. You don't even have the patch installed. First of all, the tactics phase isn't bugged. It came up on Age of Heroes and on Ubi forums, both turned out to be due to mods. I'm not sure what you mean by bugged raise dead. Actually, the game runs smoother under patch 1.3...so at least use it before you start throwing the accusations left and right.

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Mytical
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Unread postby Mytical » 18 Sep 2006, 22:08

I have experienced bugged raised dead (in buglist), but it seems to have come from a mod I forgot about. After I deleted it, it cleared up, was odd though having creatures with the raise dead hp's after the battle ended.
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dragonn
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Unread postby dragonn » 18 Sep 2006, 22:21

PhoenixReborn wrote: Actually, the game runs smoother under patch 1.3...
Excuse me? I didn't notice any changes, but maybe it's because of my low-end comp. Altough the bug that made my game crash (well actually freeze, after restarting the game it sometimes happend when loading a map)seems to, bo no more...

But it still does not change the fact that instead of messing with players strategies Nival should fix a couple more of those nasty bugs --> Buglist thread...
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okrane
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Unread postby okrane » 19 Sep 2006, 09:46

the game actually runs smoother in 1.3 for me too... but the issue here was the balancing not the graphics... I think we all agree that the graphics are great.

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DaemianLucifer
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Unread postby DaemianLucifer » 19 Sep 2006, 15:03

okrane wrote:the game actually runs smoother in 1.3 for me too... but the issue here was the balancing not the graphics... I think we all agree that the graphics are great.
I dont.Seen better earlier,and with less demanding engine.

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Darkion
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Unread postby Darkion » 19 Sep 2006, 15:22

okrane wrote:I think we all agree that the graphics are great.
No, not everyone likes the graphics or their impact on gameplay.

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okrane
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Unread postby okrane » 19 Sep 2006, 15:40

Well... if neither grafics nor gameplay are enjoyable... then it's really a mediocre game... :(

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PhoenixReborn
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Unread postby PhoenixReborn » 19 Sep 2006, 15:53

Darkion wrote:
okrane wrote:I think we all agree that the graphics are great.
No, not everyone likes the graphics or their impact on gameplay.
If you are speaking about finding objects on the adventure map I would recommend selecting "classic homm view" from the graphics options menu. Also, pressing 'alt' (as of 1.3) causes interactive objects (resources, dwellings) to glow even if they are behind things.

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Darkion
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Unread postby Darkion » 19 Sep 2006, 15:56

okrane wrote:Well... if neither grafics nor gameplay are enjoyable... then it's really a mediocre game... :(
I think that it's really difficult for a game to be universally liked, what might be seen as great for a bunch of people might really turn some other players off. There are many gamers that like the game the way it is, so that's a good sign.


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