Which army without heroes prevails ?

The new Heroes games produced by Ubisoft. Please specify which game you are referring to in your post.

So which army would be the strongest overall without heroes?

Haven
10
40%
Necropolis ... erf had to put them anyway
1
4%
Academy
1
4%
Inferno
5
20%
Dungeon
8
32%
 
Total votes: 25

User avatar
Kilop
War Dancer
War Dancer
Posts: 353
Joined: 29 Aug 2006
Location: USA

Which army without heroes prevails ?

Unread postby Kilop » 11 Sep 2006, 22:37

So the rules are 2 lvl 1 mages, without any skills related to fight ( fez, johra naxes, nathir ...) one full growth of the town ( means 8 lvl7) fight each other... who wins ???
...it would be interressant to run some in game tests with saved games, anyone motivated ?


Is it clear ?

Just reminded that having other towns armies drop their moral... it would need to be some +morale artefact for the tests, just a side not thought...

User avatar
DaemianLucifer
Round Table Hero
Round Table Hero
Posts: 11282
Joined: 06 Jan 2006
Location: City 17

Unread postby DaemianLucifer » 12 Sep 2006, 00:13

I was undecided between inferno(because of raise pit fiend,succubi and the devastating charge of cerberi and nightmares)and sylvan(druids and hunters,of course),but went with the inferno,mostly because of the raise pitfiend.(it has nothing to do with me liking the succubus,honestly :devil: )

User avatar
Kalah
Retired Admin
Retired Admin
Posts: 20078
Joined: 24 Nov 2005

Unread postby Kalah » 12 Sep 2006, 01:18

I think the Inferno army with its lightning quick cerberi, who also have NR ability, is a hot candidate. Also a possible candidate, of course, is the Sylvan army with its powerful shooters.
In War: Resolution, In Defeat: Defiance, In Victory: Magnanimity, In Peace: Goodwill.

User avatar
Sir_Toejam
Nightmare
Nightmare
Posts: 1061
Joined: 24 Jul 2006

Unread postby Sir_Toejam » 12 Sep 2006, 01:29

funny, other than necropolis, which pretty much seems to depend on the hero to balance out the weakness of the army itself, I really have a tough time assuming which would normally win out.

I picked dungeon simply because they have multiple ways of inflicting extra damage (assasins, grim raiders), they have a good level 6 shooter/caster (with several spells that seriously can inhibit the opponent, and boost allies), and their toughest unit is immune to spells.

Inferno is quick, but their level 7's are a little weaker (and slower, unless you are using a mod), and their shooters are weaker too. whether or not pit fiends would become a factor is highly dependent on who controls the opponent.

I suppose, to test the issue, we would have to just enable auto-battle and repeat the "experiment" a few times for each faction matchup?

just as a guess, I'm gonna rank them as follows:

dungeon
elves
Inferno, humans
academy
necro

sure tests sound fun. where to post the savegames?

moreover, it probably would be easiest to wait unitl the map editor comes out, then a quick cheap map can be created with the right prerequisites.

User avatar
asandir
Round Table Hero
Round Table Hero
Posts: 15481
Joined: 06 Jan 2006
Location: The campfire .... mostly

Unread postby asandir » 12 Sep 2006, 01:37

hmmm, im thinking inferno, but think it could get interesting with sylvan and dungeon
Human madness is the howl of a child with a shattered heart.

mr.hackcrag
Round Table Hero
Round Table Hero
Posts: 1525
Joined: 05 Jul 2006

Unread postby mr.hackcrag » 12 Sep 2006, 01:59

If so many people think inferno, then why does it only have one vote? :|

User avatar
Mytical
Round Table Knight
Round Table Knight
Posts: 3780
Joined: 07 Aug 2006
Location: Mytical's Dimension

Unread postby Mytical » 12 Sep 2006, 02:12

Though I do like the succubus :D I voted Sylvan. It would be a rough call though.
Warning, may cause confusion, blindness, raising of eybrows, and insanity. Image

User avatar
asandir
Round Table Hero
Round Table Hero
Posts: 15481
Joined: 06 Jan 2006
Location: The campfire .... mostly

Unread postby asandir » 12 Sep 2006, 02:49

one reason is that i forgot to vote .... but corrected now :D
Human madness is the howl of a child with a shattered heart.

User avatar
Cyrox
Peasant
Peasant
Posts: 84
Joined: 13 Aug 2006

Unread postby Cyrox » 12 Sep 2006, 04:28

I chose Sylvan.

Master hunters and druids rule.

Killroyan
Peasant
Peasant
Posts: 51
Joined: 19 Jan 2006

Unread postby Killroyan » 12 Sep 2006, 07:56

Armies with a low level hero is all about the most initiative so it gets down to sylvan and inferno. Without gating inferno gets a hard beating in power. Sylvan stays strong without the avenger skill. Then we have 4 high init/speed creatures with 3 AoE attacks with blade dancers, sprites and dragons, Unicorn with blind and last but most important of all the hunters and druids that get guarded by ancient ents. They are just the most complete army out there.

User avatar
Mytical
Round Table Knight
Round Table Knight
Posts: 3780
Joined: 07 Aug 2006
Location: Mytical's Dimension

Unread postby Mytical » 12 Sep 2006, 08:04

It does come down to skill of player, personal taste, and hero stats. I'm sure there are some master players out there that can take on Dungeon with Academy and send crying home to mama. Just like I am sure there are people who play dungeon can walk over the entire map laughing at the feeble attempts to stop them. Negating this, yes the Sylvan troops are overall better. Not undefeatable, but with people of equal skills, and heroes of equal stats..I do believe sylvan would come out on top.
Warning, may cause confusion, blindness, raising of eybrows, and insanity. Image

User avatar
asandir
Round Table Hero
Round Table Hero
Posts: 15481
Joined: 06 Jan 2006
Location: The campfire .... mostly

Unread postby asandir » 12 Sep 2006, 08:11

i guess the difficulty that necro has in this situation is that it is the only faction that will gain units in the build up that other factions can't get .... if you assume equality of dwellings, or even better, no dwellings on the adventure map, then you are limited to the units available from the towns, but necro also sources units from the neutrals, and will not win a stand up fight without those gained units .... so they either have to be given due consideration or excluded from the poll IMO, in a month of neutral fighting there would be a reasonable pool of skelly archers to even the odds slightly
Human madness is the howl of a child with a shattered heart.

Killroyan
Peasant
Peasant
Posts: 51
Joined: 19 Jan 2006

Unread postby Killroyan » 12 Sep 2006, 10:37

That was my point. Straight up with only creatures it will propably be sylvan otherwise you have to take a lot of other things into reconsideration:
1. Havens training means masses of priests and marksmen
2. Necropolis means masses of skeleton archers
3. Acadamy means all boosted creatures with artifacts
4. Inferno get 40% extra gated in creatures
5. Dungeon should get extra creatures from the blood pit, etc.... although empowered spells and elemental chains still would work
Right now the weakest skill is the avenging skil in this case. Without it there is not a big loss because you have to beat the creatures first to implement in the avengers guild.

So the poll is bit off, but that is why I choose sylvan.

wayne
Leprechaun
Leprechaun
Posts: 43
Joined: 07 Sep 2006

Unread postby wayne » 12 Sep 2006, 11:19

I am by no means a veteran of Heroes V, only managed to complete the campaign on normal mode and played a few multiplayer games. Assuming that Necropolis gets a chance to build up a few skeleton archers and that morale and luck are zero for all creatures, I would go for Necropolis.

User avatar
Kilop
War Dancer
War Dancer
Posts: 353
Joined: 29 Aug 2006
Location: USA

Unread postby Kilop » 12 Sep 2006, 11:52

Assuming that Necropolis gets a chance to build up a few skeleton archers and that morale and luck are zero for all creatures, I would go for Necropolis
no skel archers here, or we must study evry racial...
someone could make up a savegame with the two best armies as described, and it would be interesting to run contest...
as to les computer auto battle , this is not the best idea since computer sux anyway ...

vhilhu
Druid
Druid
Posts: 863
Joined: 13 Aug 2006

Unread postby vhilhu » 12 Sep 2006, 12:40

sylvan. druids/hunters just sweep the place.

User avatar
Lady Farquad
Scout
Scout
Posts: 179
Joined: 28 Jun 2006
Location: Hispanic heaven

Unread postby Lady Farquad » 12 Sep 2006, 15:41

I think we definitely have to check this all out... who knows, may be there would be a bunch of self-resurrecting vampires at the end... Or, leaving the troops alone, dragons would dominate by pure hitpoints math...

This is exactly the part I like so much about HOMM, the hero factor working on the army stats. Without it, it's hard for me to figure out the results.
Last edited by Lady Farquad on 13 Sep 2006, 14:45, edited 1 time in total.
Morior, ergo sum

User avatar
Sir_Toejam
Nightmare
Nightmare
Posts: 1061
Joined: 24 Jul 2006

Unread postby Sir_Toejam » 12 Sep 2006, 21:18

I'm sorry, but there is no other way to do this other than let the AI battle itself. Any other way introduces bias. The AI might suck, but it will suck equally for each side.

In the end, the best one could say is which side is the best using the AI.

There is no way to determine the "best" faction, really.

Maybe if somebody tweaks the AI to better utilize the special abilities of the troops, but otherwise...

If you think doing the comparisons between factions using the AI will generate useful results (it at least would be fun to try, IMO), then that's what should be done. The map editor comes out tommorrow, and it should be very easy to set up very small savegames already set up to test.

User avatar
Kilop
War Dancer
War Dancer
Posts: 353
Joined: 29 Aug 2006
Location: USA

Unread postby Kilop » 12 Sep 2006, 22:43

I'm sorry, but there is no other way to do this other than let the AI battle itself
the goel is not to sompare the pure stats of the creatures, but wich army has the best base to begin with including, how they act together , lead by someone a litle inteligent ...

User avatar
Sir_Toejam
Nightmare
Nightmare
Posts: 1061
Joined: 24 Jul 2006

Unread postby Sir_Toejam » 12 Sep 2006, 23:33

you're still not gettin it.

if led by someone "intelligent", how do you remove bias?

you can't, ergo any comparisons would be hopelessly biased.

it really is that simple.


Return to “Heroes V-VI”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 23 guests