map editor has 8 town limit - nival has to change this

[Ethric]

Yeah but there are hindrances in the way of lacking features ("I wish I could do xxx, pity they didn't think of that. Oh well, let's see about fidning a workaround), and then there are hindrances deliberately put there for mysterious reasons ("I wish I didn't have to find a workaround to this ridicolous "feature", what were they thinking!?). I for one think there's a difference there.

And a REAL mapmaker would not welcome a needless hindrance because he wants more obstacles making maps, he\she'd want a mapeditor that allowed for a wide range of options with few restrictions. At least, that is my opinion.

[DaemianLucifer]

Yeah but there are hindrances in the way of lacking features ("I wish I could do xxx, pity they didn't think of that. Oh well, let's see about fidning a workaround), and then there are hindrances deliberately put there for mysterious reasons ("I wish I didn't have to find a workaround to this ridicolous "feature", what were they thinking!?). I for one think there's a difference there.

And a REAL mapmaker would not welcome a needless hindrance because he wants more obstacles making maps, he\she'd want a mapeditor that allowed for a wide range of options with few restrictions. At least, that is my opinion.

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

Hah! Nival is scared of the lowly, humble fans who will show them how to make a real map. By limiting the mapmakers' creativity by only allowing 8 towns per maps, Nival can rest assured that not too many outstanding quality maps will be made. Nival has sought from the start to stifle Heroes 5 and suffocate any fan made creations.

Actually, a REAL mapmaker will not look on what limits they face from the Heroes 5 MapEditor, but to venture and learnon the abilities on what the MapEditor has! So I say bring it on! If that's what their intention is, then they'll be sorry for challenging the creativity of the Heroes fans!!

I think if the map editor puts too many limits on the mapmaker he will chose to deploy his creativity elsewhere. Like the soon to be released NWN2 for instance.

Ubi/Nival be warned. The success of the HOMM series has always been to a large degree attributable to the rich fan made content that kept the game fresh.

A friendly and powerful editor will mean greater profit for them in the future. An editor that places too many limits on the mapmaker may mean the demise of the series.

GOW

[LordErtz]

I concur 100% GOW. I haven't played the game in a month, and if the map editor can't allow for some unrestricted creativity, the expansion will tank like the ones in the POTD

[vhilhu]

if they(ubi&nival) want to keep the unique town with unique story and special abilties stuff, maybe they should make a "default town speciality and story" that only pops out when 8 towns of a race have been used up. eg extra money as special?

[Campaigner]

Like stalin in Red Alert:

You....disaPOINT me Krukov....*tries to break neck*....*krick*

Today it is: You...disaPOINT me Nival....

LOL! The colors couldn't have been better

[Mytical]

I am somebody who has tried to be positive dispite everything. Even now I have to say I have a semi-optimistic view. However, hope is fading fast with this announcement. My map making skills are rather bleak, but I personally am desiring to try to stretch myself with H5. If indeed there is a limit, then about 75% of my ideas go to the trash (for maps). Even if I don't count the ones that involve already improbbable things, like the ability to change creatures without scripting (if I need to write code I am SoL). My IT knowhow is near the bottom 50%, not the top 10% . Anyhow, I really hope that they reconsider or make it where it can be turned off. If it comes out without being able to be turned off, but with a hint that it may later, as long as it's not TOO long, fine. But if there isn't even the hint, I will seek something else to pass my time. It's a shame, HoMM is something I have always looked forward too.

Signed, Not quite so Optimistic
Mytical Stormcrow

[DaemianLucifer]

Hey,dont give up on the whole series.Equi still provides a lot of posibilities.Especially since its editor is still the best one there is.

[Meandor]

Nival likes doing one step forward and two steps backwards...

[Qarl]

Mytical302, if the map editor proves to be to script-heavy for your tastes when it's released, you could go the super easy route... Some Russian fella made a random map generator:

http://elrath.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=314

[Mytical]

Thanks, but already have a couple volunteers to help me if it requires too much -if this then that else run arround in circles...hehe. Now I dont know what the exact script was (as I said my skill with this is horrible) but there was a really funny map once. I don't have it anymore, and it was made by a friend of mine, but it was a map called bananas (never made it past the testing phase cause it was pure silly).

Everytime you would reach a certain ammount of resources the following would appear : "Your gluttonous and hording (hordeing?) ways have angered the Monkey God Chimpus. Your stores were attacked by a horde of frenzied apes who took all of your resources. On the bright side, they left a ton of bananas in it's place."

First time I seen that, I almost fell out of my chair laughing. It was set pretty high, but every time you reached that ammount, you lost everything.

I know that this was way off topic, but I am trying to get H1-HIV again (lost them when upgrading to new computer after old comp decided that sparks and flames were a GOOD thing). If I manage to do this, gonna start working on maps again.

[DaemianLucifer]

"Your gluttonous and hording (hordeing?) ways have angered the Monkey God Chimpus. Your stores were attacked by a horde of frenzied apes who took all of your resources. On the bright side, they left a ton of bananas in it's place."

Thats so hillarious!My personal favourite is the "You shall not pass" from the wind of thorns

[Jolly Joker]

Hah! Nival is scared of the lowly, humble fans who will show them how to make a real map. By limiting the mapmakers' creativity by only allowing 8 towns per maps, Nival can rest assured that not too many outstanding quality maps will be made. Nival has sought from the start to stifle Heroes 5 and suffocate any fan made creations.

Actually, a REAL mapmaker will not look on what limits they face from the Heroes 5 MapEditor, but to venture and learnon the abilities on what the MapEditor has! So I say bring it on! If that's what their intention is, then they'll be sorry for challenging the creativity of the Heroes fans!!

I agree completely. I mean, what are people thinking? Look at this thread for example: http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/ ... 2701034974
It's a "we want bigger maps" demand. Simple question: Who wants to edit a map that is 1000 x 1000? How long shall it take?
My honest opinion is that a lot of fan-made maps are not good because the maps have too much filler stuff. You don't want boring=useless fights: each fight that's a no-brainer in itself as soon as you come, is useless and makes no sense. For example, place a guarding stack somewhere to make sure, players have a certain army size before they venture out, it would be silly to place much smaller stacks behind that as guards because the player already beat the guarding stack.
Heroes V has NOT the epic dimension that IV had, simply because: only ONE hero per army (at most) and only 33 skills/abilities to get (instead of 98) per hero. Clearly, a map is finished as soon as the main hero has levelled out and has made the last battle.
I think, that with Heroes V any level 10 hero with a halfway decent army can beat big numbers of neutrals, so either fights will be boring on "epic" maps (too small monster stacks) or the main hero(es) will gain experience and levels rather fast.
The more towns you have, the bigger the army and the bigger the stacks necessary to keep things interesting. The bigger the stacks, then, the faster your hero levels.
I don't think, that Heroes V is the game that most "big map/lots of towns" supporters think it is - which might be the reason while many of THOSE are not satisfied with the game.

[Mytical]

Simply, we want epic maps for epic quests. Any good mapmaker will be able to balance out the issue of neutral stacks, and epic maps are not about the neutral stacks anyhow. It is about the quest, the 'enemy', and the feel that you are accomplishing something. I realize that discussing this will be selfdefeating so after this, I will not debate the point. Every person's point is valid. For you JJ epic maps = boredom. For me, epic maps = excitement. We'll agree to disagree. I have been a person who has tried to get people to see the positives of this game. I just also happen to like epic maps. This is not an attack on you JJ, so please don't take it as such. For you, your assessment is valid, that doesn't mean it is for everybody. Just because we like big maps does not mean we dislike H5.

I am sure people are going to disagree with me, and JJ after your next post if you want me to debate you, I will do so in PM. You can have the last word where I am concerned on this post. Please just understand, I dont agree with you. Doesn't mean I dont respect your opinon.

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/ ... 2701034974
It's a "we want bigger maps" demand. Simple question: Who wants to edit a map that is 1000 x 1000? How long shall it take?

I like XL epic maps. I like playing them. I like making them. Surveys have shown that the majority of players prefer them.

My honest opinion is that a lot of fan-made maps are not good because the maps have too much filler stuff. You don't want boring=useless fights:

Heroes V has NOT the epic dimension that IV had, simply because: only ONE hero per army (at most) and only 33 skills/abilities to get (instead of 98) per hero. The more towns you have, the bigger the army and the bigger the stacks necessary to keep things interesting. The bigger the stacks, then, the faster your hero levels.
I don't think, that Heroes V is the game that most "big map/lots of towns" supporters think it is - which might be the reason while many of THOSE are not satisfied with the game.

Epic maps were not invented during HOMM4. HOMM2 and HOMM3 also had them.

Creative mapmakers can come up with all kinds of special locations and plenty of stuff for the player to do in epic maps.

I enjoy HOMM5. I do think that too few maps shipped with the game and that there are too few really big maps.

If you don't like epic maps that is ok. People like different things. But don't think that mapmakers can't make fun and challenging epic maps in the HOMM5 platform...unless Ubival artifically limits them.

GOW

[Qarl]

I, too, like epic maps -you know, as long as they're made by a really creative person and aren't really boring. I do think JJ has some valid points though too. Things do seem to get a little less fun when your main hero is maxed out and there's no benefit from winning battles any more (other than staying alive.)

But one thing I'm wondering... would we have the ability to set the experience cap for the map? Or can we completely remove it? If we can, then it would seem that we could make a map about 5 times bigger than the largest one in the game because it takes 5 large maps in a campaign with experience caps to get to the point where the hero is maxed out.

There could be some flaw in my reasoning though. I haven't had my coffee yet.

[Bonzer]

My thoughts on epic sized maps are like most of yours, can be good to play as SP, but time consuming to make. If the editor limits this by number of towns etc, has anyone thought of making a campaign instead?

If a campaign editor isn't included this time, it hopefully will later.

Until then, it may be a case of making (say) three maps, with predefined Heroes, and the "West edge of Map One becomes the East edge of Map Two", and so on.

OK, without a Campaign Ed you couldn't transfer the actual army, spells and artefacts you had accumulated, but the storyline could allow for "having completed part one, you consolidate before moving out to part two. Some troops leave, some more arrive." Etc

Like some of you have said (I think), obstacles are really opportunities to see how creative you can be.

[Mytical]

Now that is something I can not argue with. That was insightful and helpful. Yes campains are prefered for me. Sometimes though, you want that last map to be epic . Anyhow, if campains are used yes would help ME some, but not maybe others.

@Qarl We should have the ability to set level caps. Or one would hope so, and to get rid of them (subject to the game's level caps of course if any). So if they never ment for any hero to go say, above level 100 then we might have that to deal with, but I think maybe there is no cap...not sure. Still it takes so much exp to get even 35th level that if it is one map it would take a huge map. (sans cheats of course)

[Dragon Angel]

It's a "we want bigger maps" demand. Simple question: Who wants to edit a map that is 1000 x 1000? How long shall it take?

Come on, JJ, you're exaggerating our positions, while not wanting to see how exaggerate the limit we are commenting is.

I think the point here, for many good mapmakers, is not "oh, I can't make the XXXXXXXL map of my dreams" but the fact that, with an 8-town limit (either of placement or conquest), you can get the following "damn... I just need one more town to complete the history, but this stupid limit forbids me to place it!!"

Tough I have no published work (and probably because I won't release to the net a map I'm not 100% proud of - wich is a quite difficult mark to achieve in my case), I have been into heroes mapmaking for a long time and I have already passed the stage were all you want to do is XL maps with all things possible. I have realized map size as a variable depending on the type of map you want to make. Yet I also realize depending the map you want to make, and the story you want to tell, you may need less or more towns, and the player should be able to conquer less or more of them. Of course, after certain town limit is surpassed, the map is over, independently on what is left, but that limit isn't necessarily 8. 8 is quite a good number already, but we could go up to 12 for definitive dominance, IMHO. Think also that - al least in previous games - towns can be limited in their development by the mapmaker, so it is not the same to have 8 full-developed towns than 8 towns that are basically dwellings with a wall.

If limits had to be put, I'd consider the following: at least a limit that allowed 3 starting towns per player ("kingdoms at war-type of map")... that will make at least 3x8=24 placeable towns. As for winning condition, 1/2 of this value (12) or a bit more (15) might be also good. I could live with these values, but 8 is too limiting in the other hand.

In fact, as Ethric was commenting, If you had a conquer "n" towns victory condition (or a conquer and hold towns A,B,C...), you'll see them being quite used by the mapmakers in order to control the map ends when it is still fun to play. But this should be up to the mapmakers decision, not the developers one.

[Jolly Joker]

As I've said, my opinion is that 8 towns is awkwardly few. I'd think that 16 would be okay.
So there's no debating that.
There is no debating the need for "epic" maps either. I like to play an "epic" map myself. However, there's nothing more difficult than making an "epic" map.
I think, that Heroes V is a game that needs a tight "environment control" because otherwise things will run out of every order.