map editor has 8 town limit - nival has to change this

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Qarl
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Postby Qarl » Sep 8 2006, 17:56

Ethric wrote:Why do you compare it with the H3 editor, when H4 had a vastly more powerful one... bit like saying "This new spaceshuttle is really complex, much harder to learn how to pilot than a bicycle."


By giving an extreme example it helps to illustrate my point more dramatically so people won't be confused by what I'm saying. If I were to choose a more subtle example as you suggest, my point may not have been as clear.
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Postby myythryyn » Sep 8 2006, 18:18

Qarl wrote:
No, you can NOT put more than 8 towns on the map. But there is no set 8 town victory condition. You can set any victory condition you like.


ok but jolly joker said there was an eight town set victory condition, and you can place more than eight towns...

so we have two conflicting statements of information.

i think the important thing is that nival should know that there will be a multitude of angry players if they either impose an eight town limit or victory condition....and that if niether of these things will be in the release version, do you have any idea on that?

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Postby Qarl » Sep 8 2006, 18:42

myythryyn wrote:
Qarl wrote:
No, you can NOT put more than 8 towns on the map. But there is no set 8 town victory condition. You can set any victory condition you like.


ok but jolly joker said there was an eight town set victory condition, and you can place more than eight towns...

so we have two conflicting statements of information.

i think the important thing is that nival should know that there will be a multitude of angry players if they either impose an eight town limit or victory condition....and that if niether of these things will be in the release version, do you have any idea on that?


Well, jolly joker didn't say he was going by the beta map editor, he said he got his info from "VERY good authority". I have er, no authority whatsoever. :) I'm just going by what I've gleaned from the leaked beta map editor. You'll have todraw your own conclusions about which one of us hits closer to the mark.

To me, it does make any sense that a 8 town victory condition would be hard-coded into they game. In the beta map editor, you can set any victory conditions you like. It makes very little sense to have the game engine, completely override this by have either the player or the computer opponent win the game by capturing 8 towns. And why would they do this?

Also, it would be pretty unnerving if you're playing along and suddunly lose the game, because unkowingly the computer captured 8 towns. Or what if the computer starts out owning the 8 towns? Or the player for that matter? Game is over before it starts. The whole idea doesn't make much sense to me and thus, I'm not too worried about that.

I AM more worried about the 8 town limit because it's in the beta map editor -but they could very well change that. *fingers crossed*
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Postby Ethric » Sep 8 2006, 18:58

Allright, no more spreading information from the leaked editor here, it might very well be changed and thus worry\relieve people needlessly. I'd rather believe info from JJ as he's working for nival\ubi.
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Postby Qarl » Sep 8 2006, 19:05

Ethric wrote:Allright, no more spreading information from the leaked editor here, it might very well be changed and thus worry\relieve people needlessly. I'd rather believe info from JJ as he's working for nival\ubi.

Ah! I didn't know that. It holds a little more weight then. ;) I hope it's not true though because it still seems ridiculous and creatively stifling.
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Postby Jolly Joker » Sep 8 2006, 19:19

To clarify this, I asked someone from Nival.
He told me that there would be no town limit per se, but they would hard-code a 8-town automatic victory condition into the public editor.
That's what happened.
Make of this what you want.
And for the umptieth time, I don't work for Ubi/Nival.

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Postby DaemianLucifer » Sep 8 2006, 19:26

If they indeed do that,it will surely be the most idiotic thing so far.Leaving the caravans out was pretty stupid,but lets say that they didnt know how to implement it(which is really a lame excuse).Making windmills unflagable is even dumber,and I really cannot see any reasonable excuse for this.But this....I dont believe that if joined toghteter the brightest mind of all human history could come with any kind of excuse for this decision.

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Postby Ketzal » Sep 8 2006, 19:28

Jolly Joker wrote:they would hard-code a 8-town automatic victory condition into the public editor.


Public editor? Does that mean that they might release different versions?

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Postby Qarl » Sep 8 2006, 19:34

Ketzal wrote:
Jolly Joker wrote:they would hard-code a 8-town automatic victory condition into the public editor.


Public editor? Does that mean that they might release different versions?


That probably means the dumbed-down editor that is released to the public which the devs themselves don't use.
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Postby DaemianLucifer » Sep 8 2006, 19:35

Ketzal wrote:Public editor? Does that mean that they might release different versions?


Yeah,maby they release one that you have to buy :devious:

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Postby Jolly Joker » Sep 8 2006, 20:03

The public editor is simply the editor for the public. It's obviously not the editor the designers use because the designers obviously want to be able to easily add, say, an addon.
Actually I find it a shame that this has to be said.

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Postby myythryyn » Sep 8 2006, 20:13

its more a shame that nival has put a hardcoded eight town victory condition.

when the editor is released, and the public finds out about this, there is going so many angy upset people. the forums will be filled with complaints about this terrible limitiaton.

ive been waitng months now for the editor, to be able to finally play this game the way i want and to be able to enjoy player made epic maps, to only end up with this silliness.

i myself am not even going to bother making maps for this game.

this has to be the most stupid thing nival has done. i cant even imgine how they could do this and think players wont care.
the whole point of a map editor is to promote replayability and longevity for the game. they have done the exact opposite of that.
Last edited by myythryyn on Sep 8 2006, 20:17, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Ethric » Sep 8 2006, 20:17

Yeah if it really is as simple as JJ (who only do services for them in non-work related ways, sorry for the above misconception) seem to say, that is that on any map any player with 8 towns will automatically win, it's really quite a baffling decision. Would be fun to hear the reasoning behind it.
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Postby DaemianLucifer » Sep 8 2006, 20:51

I can see only one reason:They got their money in advanced and really dont care how their actions will affect the game since,obviously,ubi wont hire them for HVI(if there ever will be one).

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Postby Alamar » Sep 9 2006, 4:29

Jolly Joker wrote:I. Of course, for this a campaign editor is needed and 1.3 won't contain one


If that turns out to be true that's really terrible news. I was hoping to see [good] fan-made campaigns by the holiday season :(


Ethric wrote:Yeah if it really is as simple as JJ (who only do services for them in non-work related ways, sorry for the above misconception) seem to say, that is that on any map any player with 8 towns will automatically win, it's really quite a baffling decision. Would be fun to hear the reasoning behind it.


Would you REALLY want to hear the reasoning behind something like this?? If it's true hearing the reasoning would only tend to make me madder / more disappointed.

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Postby Jolly Joker » Sep 9 2006, 7:32

I'd like to ask Qual a question.
While he hs only a beta of the editor, he still has worked with it.
The whole talk here is about the so-called "epic" maps. You could think, no one would bother making a "normal" map, but everyone wanted to make a biiiiiiiig map with loooooots of towns.
So, Qual, what do you think: A reasonably versed mapmaker who has made maps with either the H 3 WoG or the H 4 editor and has scripting experience who wants to set up a Single Player XL or XXL map with an Underground and, let's say 24 Towns, a good story included, quests, scripted events, AI behaviour, the whole works, what do YOU think, how long it would take, what kind of testing would be necessary, how difficult and time-consuming it will be compared to the rest?

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Postby Grumpy Old Wizard » Sep 9 2006, 9:36

Jolly Joker wrote:I'd like to ask Qual a question.
While he hs only a beta of the editor, he still has worked with it.
The whole talk here is about the so-called "epic" maps. You could think, no one would bother making a "normal" map, but everyone wanted to make a biiiiiiiig map with loooooots of towns.
So, Qual, what do you think: A reasonably versed mapmaker who has made maps with either the H 3 WoG or the H 4 editor and has scripting experience who wants to set up a Single Player XL or XXL map with an Underground and, let's say 24 Towns, a good story included, quests, scripted events, AI behaviour, the whole works, what do YOU think, how long it would take, what kind of testing would be necessary, how difficult and time-consuming it will be compared to the rest?


Well, I'm not Qual, but I'll address the question assuming that the map editor will be roughly as easy to work with as the previous HOMM editors.

First of all, of course some people will make "normal" size maps. Each mapmaker has a different style and prefers to make different sizes and types of maps. I have always made maps of the largest size available because that is the size of map I like the best. I also try to make my maps well decorated and combat intensive. I like to at least have an introductory story for the map.

Of course the larger the map and the more indepth the story and the more decorations/special places, and the more scripting, the longer it will take to lay out the map and to playtest it.

How much time? That will depend on the mapmaker as well as the ease of working with the editor. I think my "The Dancing Crusader" Equilibris map (XL, indepth story, tons of scripting) took me all together about 3 months to lay and playtest. I tend to be consumed by the map until it is done. Others work at a more relaxed pace and take longer to do such a map.

So, if themap editor comes out tomorrow we will be unlikely to see epic XL story maps for a while.

The smaller maps will start to come in fairly quickly though.

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Postby Ethric » Sep 9 2006, 11:46

JJ, what does that have to do with this discussion?
Who the hell locks these things?

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Postby DaemianLucifer » Sep 9 2006, 14:13

Jolly Joker wrote:I'd like to ask Qual a question.
While he hs only a beta of the editor, he still has worked with it.
The whole talk here is about the so-called "epic" maps. You could think, no one would bother making a "normal" map, but everyone wanted to make a biiiiiiiig map with loooooots of towns.
So, Qual, what do you think: A reasonably versed mapmaker who has made maps with either the H 3 WoG or the H 4 editor and has scripting experience who wants to set up a Single Player XL or XXL map with an Underground and, let's say 24 Towns, a good story included, quests, scripted events, AI behaviour, the whole works, what do YOU think, how long it would take, what kind of testing would be necessary, how difficult and time-consuming it will be compared to the rest?


How long did veldrynus say it took him to make draconic?Two months was it?

Besides,like Grumpy Old Wizard said,every mapmaker has his own prefered style.Some like making small maps,some like making big ones.some prefer SP,some MP maps,some prefer campaigns.So we will have all those styles available.Unless they really do implement that silly rule and drive some half of the mapmakers away.

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Postby [T]osHiro » Sep 9 2006, 15:09

HodgePodge wrote:Hah! Nival is scared of the lowly, humble fans who will show them how to make a real map. By limiting the mapmakers' creativity by only allowing 8 towns per maps, Nival can rest assured that not too many outstanding quality maps will be made. Nival has sought from the start to stifle Heroes 5 and suffocate any fan made creations.

Actually, a REAL mapmaker will not look on what limits they face from the Heroes 5 MapEditor, but to venture and learnon the abilities on what the MapEditor has! So I say bring it on! If that's what their intention is, then they'll be sorry for challenging the creativity of the Heroes fans!! :hoo: :hoo:
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