map editor has 8 town limit - nival has to change this

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myythryyn
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map editor has 8 town limit - nival has to change this

Postby myythryyn » Sep 5 2006, 22:53

hello, ive made a poll about if eight towns is enough when making maps, in the other forum linked here...

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/ ... 6441064774

and the results are very clear. players do not want an eight town limit in the map editor.
you can read the linked post for more details, but it has been confirmed by someone who has tried the beta map editor that there is an eight town limit to the maps made.

this will severly limit the maps made with the map editor and has to be changed. there will be alot of unhappy players if nival releases the map editor with an eight town limit.
maps made by the editor will be small, short lasting, and trival. no more large empires and continents to conquer.

somehow we have to let nival know that they should not release the map editor with an eight town limit. it should be doubled, or even tripled.

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Postby Paradox » Sep 5 2006, 23:15

Well it IS a beta, and it might be changed already.

and maps arent really big enough anyway to be conquering continents, which is a whole other issue in its own right. maybe they will give us bigger maps in the expansion, oh goody!

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Postby DaemianLucifer » Sep 5 2006, 23:25

Paradox wrote:Well it IS a beta, and it might be changed already.


Im sure the same went for amny features of HV beta that stayed.

Paradox wrote:and maps arent really big enough anyway to be conquering continents, which is a whole other issue in its own right. maybe they will give us bigger maps in the expansion, oh goody!


Yes,everything will come with the expansion.

Imo,there should be no limit for the number of towns on a map,and there should be bigger maps.

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Postby player1 » Sep 5 2006, 23:36

Important fact about hero limit:
There is total 8 heroes per faction.
(somewhat releated to town limit, since higher maximum would requise extra slider in interface)

The reason:
If all 8 players had 8 heroes each, there will be no more heroes to recuit.


P.S.
By the way, there is a map with more then 8 towns.
It's Academy campaign map in mission 4.
But you'll never get 9th town during play (Isabel home base Talonguard).

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Postby myythryyn » Sep 5 2006, 23:45

the editor may be in beta, but for some reason, nival is considering placing an eight town limit on maps.

it would be a big mistake if nival releases the map editor with an eight town limit. im hoping that they will change that and increase the limit.

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Postby DaemianLucifer » Sep 5 2006, 23:46

player1 wrote:(somewhat releated to town limit, since higher maximum would requise extra slider in interface)


Yes,and we all know how that would be impsible to implement.

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Postby HodgePodge » Sep 6 2006, 0:29

Once again, Nival has shown how lazy and disinterested they are in making Heroes 5 a classic game.

How does an 8 towns limit increase the longevity & playability of Heroes 5? It doesn't! It only makes it easier for Nival to screw up any possibilites for map makers to make outstanding maps with the Map Editor.

Balance has nothing to do with the 8 map limit … only another excuse for Nival to cut corners on the Map Editor!
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Postby PhoenixReborn » Sep 6 2006, 0:57

They have in fact included a scroll bar in the interface. I have had more than 8 towns on one map and a left and right scroll pointer pops up on the castle selection bar allowing you to choose between your many castles.

I hadn't thought of the hero limit but that is also easily overcome.

It would be silly to have a limit on towns.

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Postby asandir » Sep 6 2006, 1:47

Indeed it would, is this game not supposed to be EPIC?? and if it is then it should have the capability to deliver virtually any tool a mapmaker wants or needs in the editor .... an 8 town limit would be a real spanner in the works for this!!!
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Postby Gaidal Cain » Sep 6 2006, 7:07

player1 wrote:The reason:
If all 8 players had 8 heroes each, there will be no more heroes to recuit.


H3 could handle removing heroes from the pool so that not everyone got to have max amount of heroews just fine. I see no reason why H5 shouldn't as well.
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Postby Grumpy Old Wizard » Sep 6 2006, 7:10

Nival is supposed toa enable larger maps. We definately need to have the ability to have more towns on a map.

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Postby asandir » Sep 6 2006, 7:32

Gaidal Cain wrote:
player1 wrote:The reason:
If all 8 players had 8 heroes each, there will be no more heroes to recuit.


H3 could handle removing heroes from the pool so that not everyone got to have max amount of heroews just fine. I see no reason why H5 shouldn't as well.


even if this was a "real" problem, surely adding a few heroes per faction is not a big deal, since they can be almost carbon copied, include the campaign heroes as well
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Postby Jolly Joker » Sep 6 2006, 9:29

Just adding it here again.
The problem is reminiscent of the battlefield size problem. Nival wanted 8x10. Some wanted as big as possible. 10x12 DOES look right, though.
Here we face the same thing. Nival went for something very minimal. Some want as many as possible calling it EPIC. But Heroes V is a lot less suited for playing with a plethora of towns than H III and even that went out of whack when it got all too epic.
So my opinion here is that a 16 town limit would be a good thing, balancing the basic nature of the game with the need to create a more grand design once in a while.
If you think it over the game just doesn't play well with lots of towns. Either those towns are simple gold mines OR you need a freaking ton of additional resources and gold mines to make at least some use of them.
In my opinion EVERY map involving more than 2 towns of a faction has to be completely controlled by the map maker and has to be a single player map. Imagine for example playing Haven against Sylvans with each player having access to 4 towns. With a possible income of 10000 gold per day the Sylvan player MUST go for 2 full towns to make use of the money, while the Haven player can simply upgrade all structures in one town and then train all the Peasants from FOUR towns using up the excess short of 40000 gold per week to create Paladins from Peasants.
This is simply the backlash from having so potentially unbalancing racial specials - you cannot have more than 2 towns of the same faction without breaking the balance and you cannot have a lot of towns of any faction when a Necro is involved.
So THAT leaves the epic stuff ONLY for single player maps with nothing being random and the map maker being able to imagine what is possible and what not. Making a map of "epic" scope will be a hell of work and I'd expect a lot of patches for big multi-town maps.

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Postby asandir » Sep 6 2006, 9:40

well 16 is significantly better than 8, and probably quite manageable as well .... is that an OFFICIAL opinion, or just a personal opinion? :D
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Jolly Joker
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Postby Jolly Joker » Sep 6 2006, 10:02

I don't have any official opinions, because I'm neither with Nival nor with Ubi. I'm just handling the localization process for the Ubi department in Germany - as a freelancer, mind you.
I could now start another long explanation why you cannot have random mp maps featuring lots of random towns or eben lots of the same towns. EVERYTHING in this game is geared to having 2 towns at most (prior to conquering the opponent's towns, that should be pretty obvious. So the only map type that would present itself for having lots of towns are Single Player or Campaign maps where you have to script things and take a lot of care that things work as planned. The experience with balancing those maps we have - even with the limited amount of towns - shows that it is rather easy to overllok something, so I would expect the EPIC maps, some people are dreaming of, becoming patching nightmares.

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Postby asandir » Sep 6 2006, 13:13

fair enough .... i was only grasping at straws JJ
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Postby Gaidal Cain » Sep 6 2006, 13:16

I've played several H3 maps with featured more than 8, and some that had more than 16. I don't see the need to impose such a superficially low limit. Let the mapmakers do what they want in this regard and deal with the consequences themselves. Nival can make maps with fewer towns if they wish, but they shouldn't create unnessesary limits just because they won't go higher than that.
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Jolly Joker
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Postby Jolly Joker » Sep 6 2006, 14:26

Gaidal Cain wrote:I've played several H3 maps with featured more than 8, and some that had more than 16.

Err, what's that got to do with it?

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Postby Qarl » Sep 6 2006, 14:37

Jolly Joker wrote:I don't have any official opinions, because I'm neither with Nival nor with Ubi. I'm just handling the localization process for the Ubi department in Germany - as a freelancer, mind you.
I could now start another long explanation why you cannot have random mp maps featuring lots of random towns or eben lots of the same towns. EVERYTHING in this game is geared to having 2 towns at most (prior to conquering the opponent's towns, that should be pretty obvious. So the only map type that would present itself for having lots of towns are Single Player or Campaign maps where you have to script things and take a lot of care that things work as planned. The experience with balancing those maps we have - even with the limited amount of towns - shows that it is rather easy to overllok something, so I would expect the EPIC maps, some people are dreaming of, becoming patching nightmares.


So what? A lot of people are only interested in making/playing single player maps. Who said anything about the 8 city limit having anything to do with multiplayer? :?
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Postby BlackLotus » Sep 6 2006, 15:40

Agreed, Although I do believe that there should be a town limit, 8 is just too small of a number for creating compelling maps. Each player should at least allowed to control up to 2 towns at a time. Setting the town limit up to 16. This seems to be the right number for a town limit, while still maintaining the balance within the game

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