Conjure Pheonix is simply ridiculous

[MrSteamTank]

My god this is possibly the most overpowered spell I've ever seen. If you have a high level hero the pheonix can kill 20 titans as if they are nothing. It's way too strong. Does nival ever even play this game before they release it? It took me 1 battle with the pheonix to realize it's outrageous.

The damage and hp are fine but the stats are simply off the charts. You can't have something with over 90 attack and defense especially in comparison with the enemy units your facing.

I think giving the pheonix a flat 35 attack and defense that doesn't increase with spell power(but make it boostable by your heroes attack/defense stats) would go a long way into balancing this thing. I mean compare conjure pheonix with the other level 5 summoning spell(arcane armor) and you end up in a situation where your begging you don't get stuck without conjure pheonix.

[soupnazii]

and what version is it that youre using?

[MrSteamTank]

and what version is it that youre using?

Hmmm? I'm using version 1.2 if thats what you mean. Not really sure what you're asking here.

[soupnazii]

yea, i was asking wbout the game version. i havent played much with that spell, but with my level 25 Jhora on a hotseat map i aactually found it to be a bit underpowered. before my first cast, i was ready for a totally awesome unstoppable super creature that everybody was talking about, but it actuall wasnt really even enough to take a meaningful part out of their army, and most of te good it did do was take a few attacks for me and steal some retals before dying. anyway, i was a bit disappointed.

[MrSteamTank]

yea, i was asking wbout the game version. i havent played much with that spell, but with my level 25 Jhora on a hotseat map i aactually found it to be a bit underpowered. before my first cast, i was ready for a totally awesome unstoppable super creature that everybody was talking about, but it actuall wasnt really even enough to take a meaningful part out of their army, and most of te good it did do was take a few attacks for me and steal some retals before dying. anyway, i was a bit disappointed.

Really? I had like a 90 attack, 90 defense unit with 1400 hp and like 100+ dmg. Considering it's attack and defense is so high technically those numbers are 3-4 times as high(so it's like summoning 20 black dragons in one go).

Anyways think about it. The pheonix you summoned wasted 2-3 enemy attacks and 2-3 enemy retals. That is pretty awesome for 1 casting of a spell. You can just summon another pheonix again anyways and if he keeps on targetting the pheonix then he's going to be in deep trouble as you summon more and more.

Personally the pheonix should be about 2-3 times as powerful as the amount of tier 7 units you can raise with ressurection.

Is their anywhere I can read up on what spellpower does to increase the strength of the pheonix so I can actually know it's real stats since I'm more or less basing this on my observation in the game.

[soupnazii]

youre right, it is extrememly usefull, but the actual creature (in my experience) isnt as overly powerful as people say it is.

[Akul]

They should just make it cost much. That way losing phoenix will be critical because wizard can't cast any more mowerful spells.

[soupnazii]

but not too much. there shouldnt be any spell that makes you waste even a quarter of your mana at once. of course, this depends on your knowledge and the type of hero you have.

[stijn]

it's especially powerfull in a campaign, cause in normal maps, once you can summon a tough phoenix, you'll usually have lots of other troops. but i'm playing the campaign with markal now, and in the last mission, you start with just a few troops, but i can beat anything by just summoning a 1500hp phoenix. pretty usefull. but it's phantom forces that's really overpowered imho

[Gaidal Cain]

I agree with the notion that only damage and HP should be boosted (or only attack and defense). Right now it's power increase exponentially with spell power.

[soupnazii]

i think were back to the argument over realistic vs. balanced. realisticly ( or as realistic as mages can get), the whole phoenix itself should be more powerfull according to the heroe's spellpower, boosting all stats. but now you say that this is too powerful, and unbalanced. a compromise should be made.

[LordErtz]

Well, it depends on whether you are using the phoenix in the campaign or in multiplayer. In campaign most likely you are using tons of spell power boosters but in multiplayer your phoenix will not likely be that strong. Plus you have to get a mage guild level 5, whereas in the campaign you may have gotten it in the first scenario and it carried over.

[Arqane]

Yeah, in the campaign, you should expect everything to be a bit overpowered. You have many maps to find stat-boosting locations, and the artifacts tend to be powerful, too.

I actually like the way they coded the Phoenix alot. Don't forget it's main drawbacks.

-It does cost alot (20 isn't cheap if you're high spellpower to make it useful), though maybe a % of mana would be best for this spell.

-You can only summon one, and it can't be MI'd. If you have a decent sized army, and are going for offense, it's better to cast the much cheaper spell.

-If the rest of your army is killed, it disappears. This is BIG against other humans, and even the computer exploits this from time to time.

In fact, that last part is one of my favorites. You can really just avoid it in alot of cases where it would be useful. Sure, it'll hurt, but you don't actually have to kill the Phoenix. There's a fairly small window where you'd want to kill the Phoenix, but you couldn't easily, depending on how many troops you had.

I would have actually liked to have seen the Heroes 4 heroes on the battlefield work with about the same stats, and in the opposite way. If your hero died, the battle was over and your troops would flee (except in a castle defense). That adds an interesting strategy to having such a powerful unit on the field.

[DaemianLucifer]

youre right, it is extrememly usefull, but the actual creature (in my experience) isnt as overly powerful as people say it is.

The creature itself is not,but the neutral phoenix and the one you summon are completelly different.

i think were back to the argument over realistic vs. balanced. realisticly ( or as realistic as mages can get), the whole phoenix itself should be more powerfull according to the heroe's spellpower, boosting all stats. but now you say that this is too powerful, and unbalanced. a compromise should be made.

I dont agree that every stat should realisticly go up with your SP.Besides,even if they do,they could be toned down.For example,giving one attack and one defence for every SP,starting with 0 would be fine.

Also,the whole summoning school is too powerful.Phantom forces and raise dead are ridiculous as well.

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

Also,the whole summoning school is too powerful.Phantom forces and raise dead are ridiculous as well.

I would have said the summoning school is too weak. Very few useful spells. There should at least be a few that are useful, eh?

Raise dead: useful for the necromancers but not as useful for everyone else.

Phantom Forces: sometimes the image is destroyed (only has to take one point of damage) before it even has a chance to act

Phoenix: it can be useful, but really I seldom use it outside ofthe campaigns.

The other summoning spells are mostly bleh.

GOW

[DaemianLucifer]

Raise dead: useful for the necromancers but not as useful for everyone else.

Yet it makes them invincible.Plus,it can be very useful for others too.I managed to save my pit fiends from certain doom with this one,and it helped my hydras too.

Phantom Forces: sometimes the image is destroyed (only has to take one point of damage) before it even has a chance to act

I have almost never witnesed this.It also managed to distract some very deadly hunters fire a few times.

Phoenix: it can be useful, but really I seldom use it outside ofthe campaigns.

By the time you get it,the game is almost at the end,true,but it can tip the scales.

[soupnazii]

i have to DL's side this time. Summoning school is extremely powerful, and raise dead is a lifesaver even if your not necro.

[asandir]

i hear ya guys .... the summoning school has some of the most powerful spells, im not saying they are overpowered per se, but they are powerful

phantom forces can ruin the ai's day, especially since they seem coded to attack the phantom unit .... phantom forces on some titans anyone???

[PhoenixReborn]

Summoning school is absolutely overpowered in duel mode. Just keep casting raise dead with a wizard and your golden.

Pit lord and wraith can counter phoenixes. If you don't have one handy you can ignore it as previously suggested.

By the way I find arcane armor to be awesome. I throw it on my titans!!

[sylvanllewelyn]

By the time your wizard gets the spellpower to make it meaningful, armies are usually big enough to not pay much attention to the burning chicken. Especially against humans.