Garrisons and military posts-could they be better?
- PhoenixReborn
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Garrisons and military posts-could they be better?
Alright I'll start with Garrisons.
As they exist now they serve a function in the campaign to group more than one type of unit in one spot so that you have to go through them. That is good.
However, in multiplayer maps they are rather useless, take for example the map warlords. There are garrisons all over the place. Since they don't provide any defenses I never use them. If they provided walls I might station troops there. Maybe this isn't necessary in campaigns but I'd like it in regular maps.
Now Military posts. I don't get them at all. You fight a tough (or easy depending on the month) battle and get a few crappy unupgraded middle tier units. What? Usually only one or two creature types are available despite having space for seven units. What's that all about?
As they exist now they serve a function in the campaign to group more than one type of unit in one spot so that you have to go through them. That is good.
However, in multiplayer maps they are rather useless, take for example the map warlords. There are garrisons all over the place. Since they don't provide any defenses I never use them. If they provided walls I might station troops there. Maybe this isn't necessary in campaigns but I'd like it in regular maps.
Now Military posts. I don't get them at all. You fight a tough (or easy depending on the month) battle and get a few crappy unupgraded middle tier units. What? Usually only one or two creature types are available despite having space for seven units. What's that all about?
I agree garrisons are kind of useless, despite the fact it is just a bit different than leaving a hero behind to block the path. I could have walls and a guard tower, just 1, without moat. You could be able 'to caravan' units there too (talking about add-on possibilities) to reinforce the protection.
I think Military posts somewhat helpful sometimes, even when just being available non-upgraded units. It boosts a little your forces, but it could function in another way, maybe it could be upgradable, to increase its growth factor a bit and also be able to have walls to protect it if possible.
I miss much more stronger defenses during sieges. Those towers are weak again, as they are in Heroes 3, which becomes them useless against tough opponents. They could grow stronger depending on hero level or the army total power - which could be understood by higher defenses on the town and such.
I'm also a fan of thinking that it could be possible to use the catapult to ruin buildings within the town with a certain chance. It could help us to use all those resources rotting after building everything. You could ruin an enemy town, even losing the battle. The enemy would have to rebuild stuff, while you were just gathering forces to hazard everything that last.
I think Military posts somewhat helpful sometimes, even when just being available non-upgraded units. It boosts a little your forces, but it could function in another way, maybe it could be upgradable, to increase its growth factor a bit and also be able to have walls to protect it if possible.
I miss much more stronger defenses during sieges. Those towers are weak again, as they are in Heroes 3, which becomes them useless against tough opponents. They could grow stronger depending on hero level or the army total power - which could be understood by higher defenses on the town and such.
I'm also a fan of thinking that it could be possible to use the catapult to ruin buildings within the town with a certain chance. It could help us to use all those resources rotting after building everything. You could ruin an enemy town, even losing the battle. The enemy would have to rebuild stuff, while you were just gathering forces to hazard everything that last.
"There’s nothing to fear but fear itself and maybe some mild to moderate jellification of bones." Cave Johnson, Portal 2.
- DaemianLucifer
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Imo,there should be three garrison types:
Weak - these would be just walls
Entrenched - walls with a moat
Reinforced - these would have walls,moat and a tower
And millitary outposts just show nivals laziness:Instead of making four different dwellings,they decided to make just one universal.Now if they made outposts as a bonus dwelling,that would be a whole different story.
Weak - these would be just walls
Entrenched - walls with a moat
Reinforced - these would have walls,moat and a tower
And millitary outposts just show nivals laziness:Instead of making four different dwellings,they decided to make just one universal.Now if they made outposts as a bonus dwelling,that would be a whole different story.
- Psychobabble
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Yeah, I've long wanted some form of useful defensive structure which could mark off "kingdom" borders. It's a major missing piece in all heroes games, imo.
As an aside, something along these lines could have been achieved in H4 with "give defending army X creatures when attacked" scripts... I wish I had've thought of that before now, it could have made for a cool map concept if implemented properly.
As an aside, something along these lines could have been achieved in H4 with "give defending army X creatures when attacked" scripts... I wish I had've thought of that before now, it could have made for a cool map concept if implemented properly.
Speaking of which, seeing that way, we could settle them as we spread the kingdom itself, couldn't we? Building a garrison wherever it fits or seems good to protect, but not too close to another town. Building a garrison could take 1 day of the hero, an ability similar to dig option, spending some gold, wood and ore.
"There’s nothing to fear but fear itself and maybe some mild to moderate jellification of bones." Cave Johnson, Portal 2.
The low level neutral dwellings are helpful, but the Military posts are poorly done. The player has no way of knowing what the opposition will be or what armies will be there to recruit.
Garrisons are pretty much what they've always been. What I miss most are the Quest Gates.
Garrisons are pretty much what they've always been. What I miss most are the Quest Gates.
Before you criticize someone, first walk a mile in their shoes. If they get mad, you'll be a mile away. And you'll have their shoes.
i've only just started with the single scenario maps, so i may be missing something, but aren't the creatures defending a military outpost static?? it always seems to be 1 tier 7, 2 tier 6, 3 tier 5 and then i can't remember the rest .... but that is all i have ever seen, regardless of the faction
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This post has clearly caught my imagination....
Military Posts:
Stephan wrote:
I use them for what they are, better than nothing, a weekly boost to town recruitment, plus another job for a housekeeper.
Perhaps the MapEd will alllow you to decide what defends them and what appears each week.
DamienLucifer wrote:
Garrisons:
I have always thought that the AI uses these to leave minimum creatures so you have to fight to get through - resetting your Luck / Morale. They don't always leave a creature, but when they do it is very minimal. So that's the reason I have come to so far. Similarly, when I attack a town, I usually have to fight one enemy outside the gates before facing the main force within. Why make me fight such an easy battle? To drain bonus Luck / Morale.
I like the ideas about being able to strengthen them, but bear in mind the use the AI would make. More decisions? Hmmm.
The idea of building your own garrisons is good in theory, but open to MP abuse and I believe crashing with AI use. I think the better mapmakers among you will find a way to place strategic points to achieve a similar event.
Again, perhaps the MapEd will allow modification of Garrison use (apart from just whether you remove troops).
If not, it could be a wake up call to Modders! How about being able to leave war machines as well! How about being able to build towers! Troop buildings? Money / resource income? Hang on - that would make it a town!
I already use them to caravan troops to, and if they aren't in a convenient location, I transfer troops to a mine, and pick them up as my main passes by later.
Destroying town buildings has been discussed before (in H3 & H4) and I always used to like and hate the idea. Nice to do to others, but not to receive! Anyway, I rarely attack a town and flee, so I want it left in one piece when I capture it. I vote leave it.
It would be nice though to get some of an enemy's resources and gold when they are finally wiped out. It would be logical to get something when a town is captured, but unbalancing.
How about being able to destroy a town (as in Warlords). Leaving just a smoking ruin that may be haunted. If captured it could be rebuilt, but from a level below village. (I know just above I said not to destroy buildings, but this is for a different strategy. Some fan made maps have too many towns, and trying to defend them is a pain. It gives another option in some cases).
Military Posts:
Stephan wrote:
I have always found the same as Stephan, the defending creatures are always the same, not necessarily by level, but by town type. Necro get wights / ghosts / zombies / skeletons. Haven get 1 angel plus others, etc.but aren't the creatures defending a military outpost static?? it always seems to be 1 tier 7, 2 tier 6, 3 tier 5 and then i can't remember the rest .... but that is all i have ever seen, regardless of the faction
I use them for what they are, better than nothing, a weekly boost to town recruitment, plus another job for a housekeeper.
Perhaps the MapEd will alllow you to decide what defends them and what appears each week.
DamienLucifer wrote:
I don't think Nival have been lazy, because this stucture is an addition, as in extra. I have seen recruitment buildings for individual med / high creatures, so they have created another one. If you don't like em, don't use em.And millitary outposts just show nivals laziness:Instead of making four different dwellings,they decided to make just one universal.Now if they made outposts as a bonus dwelling,that would be a whole different story.
Garrisons:
I have always thought that the AI uses these to leave minimum creatures so you have to fight to get through - resetting your Luck / Morale. They don't always leave a creature, but when they do it is very minimal. So that's the reason I have come to so far. Similarly, when I attack a town, I usually have to fight one enemy outside the gates before facing the main force within. Why make me fight such an easy battle? To drain bonus Luck / Morale.
I like the ideas about being able to strengthen them, but bear in mind the use the AI would make. More decisions? Hmmm.
The idea of building your own garrisons is good in theory, but open to MP abuse and I believe crashing with AI use. I think the better mapmakers among you will find a way to place strategic points to achieve a similar event.
Again, perhaps the MapEd will allow modification of Garrison use (apart from just whether you remove troops).
If not, it could be a wake up call to Modders! How about being able to leave war machines as well! How about being able to build towers! Troop buildings? Money / resource income? Hang on - that would make it a town!
I already use them to caravan troops to, and if they aren't in a convenient location, I transfer troops to a mine, and pick them up as my main passes by later.
Destroying town buildings has been discussed before (in H3 & H4) and I always used to like and hate the idea. Nice to do to others, but not to receive! Anyway, I rarely attack a town and flee, so I want it left in one piece when I capture it. I vote leave it.
It would be nice though to get some of an enemy's resources and gold when they are finally wiped out. It would be logical to get something when a town is captured, but unbalancing.
How about being able to destroy a town (as in Warlords). Leaving just a smoking ruin that may be haunted. If captured it could be rebuilt, but from a level below village. (I know just above I said not to destroy buildings, but this is for a different strategy. Some fan made maps have too many towns, and trying to defend them is a pain. It gives another option in some cases).
We will either find a way, or we will make one. Emperor Hannibal.
- Jolly Joker
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Err, the Military Post is an outside high level creature dwelling that may contain creatures of the level 4-7 to recruit - and even more than one. It is always guarded by a week's base production of the lvl 4-7 creatures, no matter what creature(s) you can hire there eventually.
Quite obviously you can edit the Post to WHAT creatures there will be available (otherwise some campaign maps would be too random) for hire. Moreover, every creature you CAN hire there adds +1 to the production in town, so if a Haven Military Post allows recruiting Griffins and Cavaliers, you'll get a +1 on both in your town.
Actually I find this a pretty cool addition.
Quite obviously you can edit the Post to WHAT creatures there will be available (otherwise some campaign maps would be too random) for hire. Moreover, every creature you CAN hire there adds +1 to the production in town, so if a Haven Military Post allows recruiting Griffins and Cavaliers, you'll get a +1 on both in your town.
Actually I find this a pretty cool addition.
- Jolly Joker
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- Gaidal Cain
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- DaemianLucifer
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Indeed so,it is fixed.And its not that tough to conquer either,since those are all unupgraded troops.Bonzer wrote:I have always found the same as Stephan, the defending creatures are always the same, not necessarily by level, but by town type. Necro get wights / ghosts / zombies / skeletons. Haven get 1 angel plus others, etc.but aren't the creatures defending a military outpost static?? it always seems to be 1 tier 7, 2 tier 6, 3 tier 5 and then i can't remember the rest .... but that is all i have ever seen, regardless of the faction
Ive never seen a single creature dwelling of levels 4-7,only millitary outposts.Where did you see a dwelling for them?Tell me the map to check it out.Bonzer wrote: I don't think Nival have been lazy, because this stucture is an addition, as in extra. I have seen recruitment buildings for individual med / high creatures, so they have created another one. If you don't like em, don't use em.
Not really.If you made very high limits,like 30 tiles between a garrison and a town,and between two garrisons,2 days stationary hero of level 10+ to build,and some 5000 gold and 10 wood and ore,then it can hardly be abused.And with all that,youd get just a wall.If you want to upgrade it(like I posted)youd need 15(20) level hero to be strationary for 2 extra days and 5000gp and 10 wood and ore extra for the next level of garrison.Bonzer wrote: The idea of building your own garrisons is good in theory, but open to MP abuse and I believe crashing with AI use. I think the better mapmakers among you will find a way to place strategic points to achieve a similar event.
This will probably be an option with the map editor,so it only depends on mapmakers.Bonzer wrote: How about being able to destroy a town (as in Warlords). Leaving just a smoking ruin that may be haunted. If captured it could be rebuilt, but from a level below village. (I know just above I said not to destroy buildings, but this is for a different strategy. Some fan made maps have too many towns, and trying to defend them is a pain. It gives another option in some cases).
- PhoenixReborn
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I wasn't thinking of anything super radical but I would like to see basic walls and one tower for a garrison. This would make putting troops in them somewhat worthwhile, especially if you were bringing them from an unaligned castle.
I don't necessarily think being able to build them is a good idea; that is in control of the mapmakers.
Similarly, the outposts are in control of the mapmakers. It is just that as they are currently used they rarely have upgraded troops etc. But as JJ points out they do give bonuses to home dwellings.
I don't necessarily think being able to build them is a good idea; that is in control of the mapmakers.
Similarly, the outposts are in control of the mapmakers. It is just that as they are currently used they rarely have upgraded troops etc. But as JJ points out they do give bonuses to home dwellings.
- DaemianLucifer
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- Grumpy Old Wizard
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This is a good idea.DaemianLucifer wrote:Imo,there should be three garrison types:
Weak - these would be just walls
Entrenched - walls with a moat
Reinforced - these would have walls,moat and a tower
The Military Outposts are somewhat useful but there should be a clue as to what type of troop that will be available there.
GOW
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Gandalf: "So do all who live to see such times but that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us."
- Jolly Joker
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