Renegade units in Addon

The new Heroes games produced by Ubisoft. Please specify which game you are referring to in your post.

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Postby ThunderTitan » Sep 5 2006, 14:48

soupnazii wrote:assuming you are no historian/psychologist or anything, i dont think you have a right to say something like that as if it was fact. some people know the very reasons for his actions. he defined the perfect human as an exact opposite of himself.


First off, neither historian or psychologist can say that as fact coy they weren´t there.

Secondly, i never said it was fact.

Thirdly Eva Braun had Jewish blood.

4thly he did not define the perfect human, most of the crap he wrote was alredy around in some form or another. Anti-semitism has a very long history, and was always used when kings wanted to not pay back money loaning jews.

5thly most hatemongering and stuff like that can be traced to certain economical or political reasons.
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Postby DaemianLucifer » Sep 5 2006, 14:51

soupnazii wrote:assuming you are no historian/psychologist or anything, i dont think you have a right to say something like that as if it was fact. some people know the very reasons for his actions. he defined the perfect human as an exact opposite of himself. why would he do that? some people have explanations. they say he hated himself. but the point its, he hated jews (and gypsies and homosexuals) and as far as he was concerened they were resposible for everything thast went wrong in his life. when he rose to power he simply finally had a way to do something about it. if he was somehow unsuccesful in rising to power, it would just be all the more reason to hate jews. thats what i think, although i am also no historian or psychologist.


The only person that really knew what was going on in hitlers had,died near the end of war.And you cannot say that all the things hitler did brought just evil.Nuclear fission,for example,could be viewed as both good and evil invention.And it would come much later if not for WWII.Although,WWII was almost bound to happen and would probably happen even if it werent for hitler(remember red alert :devil: ).

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Postby ThunderTitan » Sep 5 2006, 14:55

soupnazii wrote:
which make your true feelings against so-and-so evil.


So being afraid and lashing out = evil? The thing is hate is normaly used to block out fear and sht, and hurting someone makes you feel less weak. So those aren´t true feelings, they´re just a smokescreen you hide under.

See evil as commonly defined doewsn´t really exist, because people require a justification for the things thay do. True evil wouldn´t need one, he´d just do it out of sheer malice.

At DL:

You´re forgeting that he pretty much brought back Germany from a huge economical depresion where the money you made in the morning was rather useless by sundown.
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Postby DaemianLucifer » Sep 5 2006, 14:57

ThunderTitan wrote: See evil as commonly defined doewsn´t really exist, because people require a justification for the things thay do. True evil wouldn´t need one, he´d just do it out of sheer malice.


You mean something like demon sovereign? :devil:

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Postby ThunderTitan » Sep 5 2006, 15:01

DaemianLucifer wrote:You mean something like demon sovereign? :devil:


Kinda... but maybe less boring and more subtle. Then again making true evil actualy interesting would be very hard.
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Postby Mytical » Sep 5 2006, 15:05

Again we argue in circles :). I am convinced none of us will change the minds of the other, unless they are just playing 'devil's advacit' (geesh I wish I could spell). Each of us has an idea of what defines evil. Until we die, and pass to the next life (or just cease to exist, or whatever you personally believe) we may never know. I will reinterate (for the last time) mayhap the camfire area would be better suited to continue this debate???
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Postby DaemianLucifer » Sep 5 2006, 15:09

ThunderTitan wrote:Kinda... but maybe less boring and more subtle. Then again making true evil actualy interesting would be very hard.


But not imposible.NWN:HotU.Or,BG.True evil,yet interesting.

Mytical302 wrote:Again we argue in circles :). I am convinced none of us will change the minds of the other, unless they are just playing 'devil's advacit' (geesh I wish I could spell). Each of us has an idea of what defines evil. Until we die, and pass to the next life (or just cease to exist, or whatever you personally believe) we may never know. I will reinterate (for the last time) mayhap the camfire area would be better suited to continue this debate???


Ah,but its closely tied with singling out the evil ones in HV(meaning markal and sovereign) :devious:
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Postby Meandor » Sep 5 2006, 16:46

Good or evil is not decided over motives; it's the means that make the difference.


Your motive is to save hundreds of people(good!!), but in order to do that you must kill(evil!!) one person. So we have good motives and evil means. My question, if i killed one person to save hundreds, am i evil?
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Postby DaemianLucifer » Sep 5 2006, 16:54

Meandor wrote:Your motive is to save hundreds of people(good!!), but in order to do that you must kill(evil!!) one person. So we have good motives and evil means. My question, if i killed one person to save hundreds, am i evil?


Of course you are.Batman always tries to restrain the vilain instead of just killing him :devious:

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Postby Paradox » Sep 5 2006, 17:17

I dont belive there is any "real" evil in the world, murderers and such are just maniacs or psychopaths with something wrong in their brain, or they just grew up to be like that, psychology.

*I* see evil like fantasy evil... demons and the devil and such, (which some acctually think is real, but we know it isnt...)

If your using evil as a word to just describe a really horrible person, then yeah, I guess hitler was "evil" but i dont think he was being manipulated by some kind of evil devil force or anything...
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Postby Akul » Sep 5 2006, 17:18

There is no good and evil in the world. Everyone is gray.
Also, nothing in H5 shows that someone is either good or evil. Ih H3, there was the altair of sacrifice at which you could find out who is good and who is evil. In H5 there is no altair and in lore youi can see that noone is a perfect evil and neither perfectly good.

Also, how can you know if Markal is good or evil. How can you know that the storywriter doesn't have a whole book of H5 story which he wasn't allowed to release because of Ubi's cutscenes. Unles I can read more about Markal, he is still a neutral character as are the other characters.
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Postby player1 » Sep 5 2006, 17:26

Markal did more then enough actions to clasify him as evil.

The mere act of reanimating Nicolay is enough, especially, since he knew exactly what would be the result (while Isabel did not).

Stripping the Nicolay from heavens and damning him for ethernity.
That is so EVIL!

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Postby Akul » Sep 5 2006, 18:46

No, they used him. Do you think that Godric would care if he took somebody from the beautiful paradise if it helps him make his intentions real? Should he then be "evil".
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Postby Mytical » Sep 5 2006, 19:02

I am sorry Psychology is just another symptom of the 'not me' era. It's not my fault, my great grandfather on my step-uncles side ate peanutbutter on one tuesday instead of chili!! Phaaaleeease. Not that there may not be ligitimate reasons somebody went bad, but it has gotten ridiculous. Nobody is ever at fault for what they do anymore, it is always somebody or something else's fault. Every day you are faced with choices, and just because something bad has happened to you does not excuse a bad one. I have had more then one of these things happen to me, but I do not go out and commit heinous crimes (sorry not going to discuss what in public). For every person that has had 'X' happen to them and done something bad, there have been 100 who also has 'X' happen to them that do not. I might understand some of these reasons, like being so under developed mentally they honestly do not know right from wrong, but it has gotten out of control.

Sorry about the rant here. I usually try to keep a very open mind about other peoples views. Sometimes I fail and fall short. This is another passionate topic of mine; however, do to personal reasons. Here is hoping none take offense to this, it was not meant as an attack on anybody.

Oh and Godric DID care, he even went against his oath of alliegence to Isabel to STOP them. :)
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Postby DaemianLucifer » Sep 5 2006, 19:05

Sauron wrote:No, they used him. Do you think that Godric would care if he took somebody from the beautiful paradise if it helps him make his intentions real? Should he then be "evil".


Oh please!First of all,godric would never turn anyone into a vampire.Second,he would never dispose of anyone thats of no further need to him like markal did with his daughter.

@Mytical302

Something bad that happened to you way back is no excuse for your bad actions,but it is the reason.Its all just cause and effect,really.Youre no more than a biological computer that responds to certain things around you in a certain way,and there really is nothing you can change about it.

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Postby Mytical » Sep 5 2006, 20:03

Perhaps, but you still have a choice. A computer only knows what is programmed into it and has no ability to formulate it's own ideas. It does what it is told too. A person; however, is more then just their 'programming' they have abstract thought and the ability to make decisions not 'programmed' into them. Now one day down the road a computer may develop 'true' AI, but that is just it...it would be Artificial. I am sure even in Viking society there were those who chose NOT to do what everybody else was. Even though they were thought every day that you HAD to be a warrior, some were artist or teachers, or something else. They went outside there 'programming' which is immpossible at this point for a computer.
There is no utopia, where everybody does what they are supposed to. I understand this, and accept it. People may have very decent reasons for doing what they do, but the least they could do is own up to them. Not push it off on somebody else. Again; though, I doubt I will change anybody's mind on this subject. Either they agree or disagree.
Somepeople mistake my pascivity for weakness, I can make a stand on things that are important. My family, my friends...there is nothing I would not do to protect them. Still it would be a much better world if people would just accept people as they are, and they themselves would admit there own shortfallings. This will never happen, at least not in my lifetime, and not for any forseeable future. I am an idealist, I like to think the best of people, but the reality is people are human. They make mistakes.

(tongue in cheek) Don't blame me for this post though. It was the way I was raised. :angel:
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Postby ThunderTitan » Sep 5 2006, 20:07

DaemianLucifer wrote:Of course you are.Batman always tries to restrain the vilain instead of just killing him :devious:


Yeah, only Wonder Woman is stupid enough to kill a guy instead of knocking him out.


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060905/ap_on_go_pr_wh/bush_terrorism

The terrorists who attacked us on September the 11th, 2001, are men without conscience, but they're not madmen," he said. "They kill in the name of a clear and focused ideology, a set of beliefs that are evil but not insane."


See what i mean, the enemy is always evil. Evil is just a way to dehumanize someone.


Oh, and i really hate about Ashan is that they just made the traditional good guys bad but left the evil factions as they were. That's not grey, that's black.
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Postby ThunderTitan » Sep 5 2006, 20:14

Mytical302 wrote:Perhaps, but you still have a choice. A computer only knows what is programmed into it and has no ability to formulate it's own ideas. It does what it is told too. A person; however, is more then just their 'programming' they have abstract thought and the ability to make decisions not 'programmed' into them.


But if we're nothing more then meat and electro-chemical responses we too only know what is programmed into us and have no ability to formulate our own ideas. It just seems that way because how advanced the program is.

You example is wrong, as a people can't survive with only warriors. And they didn't just decide out of the blue to be poets, as they first needed to know what a poet is.

See, DL doesn't belive in a soul, so we're nothing but machines too him.


And in the end people are responsible for their own actions, because, while very hard, it's not imposible to get over psychological trauma and upbringing. Even if we are nothing but machines there are good examples (programong) out there.
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Postby Jolly Joker » Sep 5 2006, 20:15

Paradox and Sauron, you are misguided, and people like you who say there is no evil, actually spread evil.
There is good and there is evil, in your everyday life, whether you realize it or not. If everyone was a little mor good and a little less indifferent this world would be a better place.
Actually you can define evil, and it has been done successfully and it exists in reality. For example, it is evil to try and destroy the free will of people. Get a grip on things, please.

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Postby Ketzal » Sep 5 2006, 20:24

Can one of the mods please move this topic to a more appropriate forum?


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