Expansion HOMM 5

The new Heroes games produced by Ubisoft. Please specify which game you are referring to in your post.

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Tysar
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Postby Tysar » Sep 4 2006, 13:12

iim not a fan of D&D or warhammer games, never have played that , and i think that heroes never was based in that stuff
Please, Gorgons as cows, six-armed half snake women, Paladins in shiny armour... HoMM was most definatly based on D&D. And WH was based on D&D too. Actualy most video ganes were.
nothing is completely based on D&D, ideas are taken from here and there and modified to fit the setting in most cases... Over time though, the most popular of these ideas became stereotypical for fantasy, and I don't think anyone yells "RIPOFF!" when they see a human-like, long eared elf that lives in a wood and is a great archer (and certainly not when they see Paladins in shiny armour O_o) . With that said, aside from some names, I don't know about any ideas that were taken by WH from D&D, mainly because I'm not a fan of D&D myself (enlighten me if there's something I should know)... But I completely agree with you that HoMM was intensively borrowing ideas from other settings, you decide how so form D&D, but it has (especially recently) been also "borrowing" from Warhammer... http://uk.games-workshop.com/darkelves/ ... gallery/1/ enough said

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Postby ThunderTitan » Sep 4 2006, 13:56

Let me explain something to you: Most modern, and certainly all mainstream, fantasy is based on LotR, on which D&D is based on, and most other fantasy games were made by people that were into D&D. Warhammer included.

So most modern fantasy stereotypes come from LotR via D&D. Some also go through Warhammer too.

And based on covers modifications to fit the setting.

As for the Dark Elves, the D&D Forgotten Realms ones are matriachal and live underground. :tongue:
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Postby Tysar » Sep 4 2006, 16:16

Let me explain something to you: Most modern, and certainly all mainstream, fantasy is based on LotR, on which D&D is based on, and most other fantasy games were made by people that were into D&D. Warhammer included.

So most modern fantasy stereotypes come from LotR via D&D. Some also go through Warhammer too.

And based on covers modifications to fit the setting.

As for the Dark Elves, the D&D Forgotten Realms ones are matriachal and live underground. :tongue:
I am completely aware of the fact that the modern stereotypes come from LoTR and so on. I just want to highlight that they are stereotypes by now. Dwarves depicted as short, stubborn and beardy warriors aren't anything terribly original in modern fantasy settings. Beholders aren't common, thus it's fair to say that the HoMM 3 unit was taken straight out of D&D, just like the appearance of the Dark Elves of HoMM 5 from WH and their history, as you say, from D&D (how could I friggen forget, I used to play BG a lot :D). Now, I'm not quite sure anymore what are you trying to say by "lots of settings based off D&D" - as in, lots of stuff originally made up by the D&D guys taken by creators of other settings, or stuff originally made up by Tolkien but taken by others via D&D..?
Some examples would also be cool. :D

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Postby ThunderTitan » Sep 4 2006, 21:17

Some examples would also be cool. :D
Like i have time....

Oh, and Gorgon as a cow is straight from D&D.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gorgon#Gor ... rn_culture
In Dungeons and Dragons, from which many games like Heroes of Might and Magic take inspiration, Gorgons are giant bulls with iron-like hides that have a petrifying breath.
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Postby chaosgorgon » Sep 9 2006, 15:56

Let me explain something to you: Most modern, and certainly all mainstream, fantasy is based on LotR, on which D&D is based on, and most other fantasy games were made by people that were into D&D. Warhammer included.
dont know about warhammer or other stuff, but you are getting the wrong point, since all the tolkien stuff is based in mythos and tales from europe, of course the the gorgon in H3 isnt a "medussa", but that dont mean that is based in DD stuff, i mean since when these gorgons were allies of lizardmen?, sadly it got more "tolkinished" specially in this H5, by commercial reasons

btw, the "gorgon" really exists, is a africian mythic "monster", DD took it but with a new name, gorgon

H3 never was "based" in all these stuff, it just took the same monsters from different mythos from which the other guys did, i mean never were a dwarf faction..were dwarfes in "sylvian" then in "academy", etc, was more fun and had more freedom in creativity, that was always a issue in H games, like when they put dwarfes with the wizards, and the tolkien fans started to cry "since when dwarfs are with magicians??", but they didnt understand that the game wasnt tolkien crap, and the concept in the town was knowloedge and science
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Postby vhilhu » Sep 9 2006, 16:56

of course it may seem fun if all creatures were based on little-known mythology, not well-known d&d creatures, because if i say "lets make a fish called Ravgga or a priest called haruspex" then most people think anyway that these are some sick fruits of imagination, not real mythology or history.

and who really wants to learn some new real words when you can use the old fake ones? thats why efreet is (almost, in hexen it was otherway) NEVER ifrit but always efreet.

btw this is a bit off topic but i thought maybe behemoths should be hippopotami, not apes? a big enchanted(to look cool) hippopotamus, that would be fun.

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Postby Akul » Sep 9 2006, 21:27

To chaosgorgon:

How does a dwarf faction make dwarves Tolkienish?
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Postby Darkstroem » Sep 10 2006, 9:00

To chaosgorgon:

How does a dwarf faction make dwarves Tolkienish?
That's not what he said. He just talked about dwarves hanging around with wizards. ;)

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Postby Thelonious » Sep 10 2006, 9:18

btw, the "gorgon" really exists, is a africian mythic "monster", DD took it but with a new name, gorgon
A gorgon is also from Greek culture, the sisters of medusa were the gorgons.

Anyway, by taking away the science concept in the series they made it just another game.
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Postby Mytical » Sep 10 2006, 9:26

Actually D&D did not make up as much as people think. They took things from literature, myths, legands, tall tells, and any other source they could get without copywright infringement. Sure they codified them and created 'stats' for them, but the concrete stuff, very few was their original idea. Thus why they can't sue for somebody using dwarves, elves, ect. Nobody else can either. True you can some of the things your special version does..if totally unique and never been in print anywhere before. That is really hard to do; however. I am sure some of the creations in D&D were unique to D&D, but they were very few and far between. Specific characters Like Drizzt (c - One of the D& D books) you have to be careful using however (most of the time; however, nothing is said).

Even some of the spells were generic rip offs from lore, ect. I think maybe Magic Missile, Chromatic Orb, and a few others might be original, but I could not swear too it.
I keep getting way off topic though *smacks own hand* bad Mytical, Bad Mytical...let ya'all get back to the real topic :)
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Postby Qarl » Sep 10 2006, 10:26

Many things go back much farther than Tolkien. For instance, he didn't come up with dwarves and elves, they're in Norse mythology.
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Postby Bonzer » Sep 10 2006, 10:37

Just to add a bit of humour here....

I play D&D, and sometimes run for others. One of my favourite times is the annual "Dwarf Throwing Competition" held in some towns. As the saying goes, "The bigger they are, the harder they fall. Yes, but the smaller they are, the further they go!"

Interesting thread though.
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Postby Mytical » Sep 10 2006, 10:47

Yeah, when I played a dwarf I actually had fun with that :). Until some bleeding monty haul dm made him 6'6, and able to use all magic while wearing anything (even platemail). Had to stop using him then, wasn't as fun.

We all know Monty Haul dm's ay? (if you ever played pen/paper rpg)
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Postby vhilhu » Sep 10 2006, 12:34

tolkien did think up orcs, though. a green ugly human, why do some people like them? lizardmen are even newer(completely d&d spawn), but i still like them more. a lot.

i still hope a swamp town is coming with lizardmen and basilisks and giant fireflies or wasps. and maybe mantises.

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Postby Qarl » Sep 10 2006, 13:32

Just to add a bit of humour here....

I play D&D, and sometimes run for others. One of my favourite times is the annual "Dwarf Throwing Competition" held in some towns. As the saying goes, "The bigger they are, the harder they fall. Yes, but the smaller they are, the further they go!"

Interesting thread though.
Heh, I remember reading one time that a bunch of upset activist type people found out about a dwarf throwing competition in one town and they lobbied for a town ordinance banning the practice on the grounds that it was degrading to people who are... "height-challenged." :devious:

Unfortunately, the ordinance was passed and thus there was town full of angry dwarfs who were now unemployed and wished to God the damned activist would mind their own business. :disagree:
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Postby Mytical » Sep 10 2006, 13:35

haha should have seen the Human Toss (a 6'+ dwarf can throw just about anything). Brought in some good gold :).
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Postby Omega_Destroyer » Sep 10 2006, 16:00

Perhaps that's some long lost runic spell.

"Dwarven Toss: The Dwarven Hero tosses a friendly dwarf unit that is guided by the strength of his ancestoral spirits."

It would be funny to see, just not very practical to implement.
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Postby DaemianLucifer » Sep 10 2006, 16:10

It really would be fun to have a humorous strategy like that.Maybe a discworld strategy.You could have dwarf tossers,troll bouncers,a rider and three walkers of the apocalypse,wizzards,and many more :devil:

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Postby Darkstroem » Sep 10 2006, 20:10

tolkien did think up orcs, though. a green ugly human, why do some people like them?
They are not green in Tolkien, and not very human-like.

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Postby vhilhu » Sep 11 2006, 5:04

ok im not going to argue about tolkien, ive only read LotR and Hobbit, not Slimaralalallion and dont remember much from them anyway. but id want orcs back as pig-men even less.


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