Suggestion about ultimates

The new Heroes games produced by Ubisoft. Please specify which game you are referring to in your post.

Moderator: Moderators

User avatar
jerseys
Peasant
Peasant
Posts: 56
Joined: 06 Jan 2006

Suggestion about ultimates

Postby jerseys » Aug 9 2006, 2:10

The way they are now the're useless, because they force you to make a template hero. For example when you want inferno ultimate, you can only take one skil of your choice, because you need logistics, dark magic, offence, and luck. The abilities are also forced.

It's very dull because it forces you to make a decission at the start if you're going to go after the ultimate. And because it's a risk (you may not be amble to reach it) you're more often then not don't follow it. This makes the ultimates non existant, because after the first level up you know you won't have a chance of seeing it.

I know they are supposed to be hard to get, but in h3 combined artefacts were also hard to get but you always knew you have a chance.

So, just remove ALL skill requirements and just make 1 new: hero level 30. At level 30 you have 10% chance of getting it, at 31 20% chance and so on. Of coure the numbers are just an example and can be adjusted. It's still hard to get and in addition, because it's more sure now, it will speed up long games.

What do you think?

User avatar
PhoenixReborn
Round Table Hero
Round Table Hero
Posts: 2014
Joined: 24 May 2006
Location: US

Postby PhoenixReborn » Aug 9 2006, 2:41

Have you ever reached level 30 on an mp map?

I never have, usually peter out around 24 or so.

It could work for the campaigns, but I think there only meant for the campaings anyways. I'm assuming that people that have gotten them did get them in campaigns.

User avatar
jerseys
Peasant
Peasant
Posts: 56
Joined: 06 Jan 2006

Postby jerseys » Aug 9 2006, 2:45

That's why I said that numbers are just an example. Make it level 25 if you will. Or even 22 or whatever.

User avatar
Alamar
Golem
Golem
Posts: 605
Joined: 06 Jan 2006

Postby Alamar » Aug 10 2006, 1:55

Personally I'm fine with the Ultimate Abilities being pretty much unreachable in MP games. This way we don't have to worry about balancing them against each other but in Campaign & Scenario maps we can still play around with the toy.

I agree with some other posters if you could easily reach the ultimate then [assuming Ultimate is worthwhile] everyone would try to build exactly the same heroes each time ... therefore it's a waste IMHO.

User avatar
Ketzal
Peasant
Peasant
Posts: 50
Joined: 06 Jan 2006
Location: New Jersey

Postby Ketzal » Aug 10 2006, 20:08

I like the idea of sacrificing some desirable skills to get the ultimate skill.

What I don’t like is that after choosing to sacrifice, I still might not get the ultimate skill since I will be forced to take skills that are not on the ultimate skill path. Also, it would be a lot more palatable if all of the ultimate skills were truly worth it.

User avatar
Lady Farquad
Scout
Scout
Posts: 179
Joined: 28 Jun 2006
Location: Hispanic heaven

Postby Lady Farquad » Aug 10 2006, 20:15

Ketzal wrote:I like the idea of sacrificing some desirable skills to get the ultimate skill.

What I don’t like is that after choosing to sacrifice, I still might not get the ultimate skill since I will be forced to take skills that are not on the ultimate skill path. Also, it would be a lot more palatable if all of the ultimate skills were truly worth it.


Agree.
I wouldn't like to make it a "lucky strike" like if you reach level 30 you have the % chance.
But I also dislike the AI not giving you the CHOICE to go for it (even after plenty reloads).

In conclusion, I like it the way it is because there's an elemental word in HOMM: balance.
Morior, ergo sum

User avatar
Warlock
Pixie
Pixie
Posts: 147
Joined: 07 Jun 2006

Postby Warlock » Aug 10 2006, 20:33

Add to this, Warlock should have Destruction as part of his path. It's just stupid for a Warlock to not get Destruction.

User avatar
Ketzal
Peasant
Peasant
Posts: 50
Joined: 06 Jan 2006
Location: New Jersey

Postby Ketzal » Aug 11 2006, 13:50

Lady Farquad wrote:In conclusion, I like it the way it is because there's an elemental word in HOMM: balance.


I wish it were balanced. Not all the ultimates are worth it.

Great
Sylvan - +125% damage 100% of the time
Academy - All spells at expert level

OK
Inferno - Instant gating means all units get to gate and then attack right away. Skill path is costly though.
Necropolis - -6 to enemy morale is great, but it must be activated (though it lasts a few turns) and alot of creatures are immune (undead, golems, gargoyles)

Useless
Haven - Good damage if you defend the right unit. Must be activated each hero turn (can't cast other spells)
Dungeon - Need a dungeon town with the proper upgrades to make it useful, more often then not, a more powerful spell will do more damage then an aligned spell.

User avatar
Lady Farquad
Scout
Scout
Posts: 179
Joined: 28 Jun 2006
Location: Hispanic heaven

Postby Lady Farquad » Aug 11 2006, 15:08

I would place necropolis in useless, as Maltz said: -6 in morale against i.e. Godric with +5, his army ends up with -1 easily cleaned by a simple spell.
But balance goes beyond ultimate. Think of +sekelton archers and herald of death.

I mean, you can't speak balance without considering the overall product.

For instance, you are right about haven, not casting spells, but haven is a might faction.
In the case of warlocks, only in campaigns you find a homeless hero or building limitations...

Grow, expand, conquer right?
Morior, ergo sum

User avatar
Ketzal
Peasant
Peasant
Posts: 50
Joined: 06 Jan 2006
Location: New Jersey

Postby Ketzal » Aug 11 2006, 15:25

Lady Farquad wrote:I would place necropolis in useless, as Maltz said: -6 in morale against i.e. Godric with +5, his army ends up with -1 easily cleaned by a simple spell.


That's why I didn't put it in great. But it is more than useless. You are correct that -1 morale isn't the same as -5, but remember, that -1 would have been +5 without the skill.

Lady Farquad wrote:For instance, you are right about haven, not casting spells, but haven is a might faction.
In the case of warlocks, only in campaigns you find a homeless hero or building limitations...


My point was that a human player could theoretically negate the Haven ultimate skill by not directly attacking a particular unit. And as for elemental chains, it is a relatively weak skill to begin with. Doubling the damage helps, but not by a lot. When I played with them, I almost completely ignored the elements since I almost always chose my targets by strength and/or danger, not by element.


Lady Farquad wrote:But balance goes beyond ultimate. Think of +sekelton archers and herald of death.

I mean, you can't speak balance without considering the overall product.


I agree that there should be, and that there is, an overall balance to the races, which of course will need to be tweaked over time. But I also feel that the ultimates should be the ultimate skill for the given race. The ultimates should not be used to make an overall weak race equally strong. In that case, there is no need for ultimates for the naturally strongest race.

Also, a skill that is so rare and difficult to obtain should not be used to balance against skills that are given to all heroes of the race in the first few levels.

User avatar
Lady Farquad
Scout
Scout
Posts: 179
Joined: 28 Jun 2006
Location: Hispanic heaven

Postby Lady Farquad » Aug 11 2006, 16:01

Ketzal wrote:Also, a skill that is so rare and difficult to obtain should not be used to balance against skills that are given to all heroes of the race in the first few levels.


Of course; however I don't see it quite that way. If Im necro, by the time my enemy gets the ultimate Ill have legions of skeleton archers, but not at the very beggining... As my enemy grows and learns I grow and learn too.

In a general view, I agree with you.
Morior, ergo sum

User avatar
Warlock
Pixie
Pixie
Posts: 147
Joined: 07 Jun 2006

Postby Warlock » Aug 11 2006, 16:58

Ketzal wrote:
Lady Farquad wrote:In conclusion, I like it the way it is because there's an elemental word in HOMM: balance.


I wish it were balanced. Not all the ultimates are worth it.

Great
Sylvan - +125% damage 100% of the time
Academy - All spells at expert level

OK
Inferno - Instant gating means all units get to gate and then attack right away. Skill path is costly though.
Necropolis - -6 to enemy morale is great, but it must be activated (though it lasts a few turns) and alot of creatures are immune (undead, golems, gargoyles)

Useless
Haven - Good damage if you defend the right unit. Must be activated each hero turn (can't cast other spells)
Dungeon - Need a dungeon town with the proper upgrades to make it useful, more often then not, a more powerful spell will do more damage then an aligned spell.


I agree with this, though I have yet to actually *get* an ultimate to experiment with them (*almost* got it on Zehir but he didn't get offered Attack until the last mission). I find Haven's the worst - mostly because I find that skill pretty useless to begin with. You're right in that it requires the enemy to specifically attack that one unit, which may not even happen. It's a total guessing game, and ultimately, at least for the base skill, you waste your hero's turn for a chance to do a *slightly* powerful version of their normal attack that could have been done on their turn :P Now the ultimate boosts that damage and that is decent (esp considering you've probably got like a lvl 30 hero at this point), but it's still very much a gamble. Inferno has a similar useless skill, though you can get it to cast Weakness when activated which makes it somewhat ok (Haven might have something like that, I honestly didn't check).

Dungeon might not have been so bad if not for the god-aweful skill path. War Machines? Really? And it doesn't include Destructive Magic (do any of them? I don't recall any that do) which means you potentially pass up Empowered Spells which is just rediculously stupid for a Warlock to do. "Gee, do I want to do an extra 50 damage to this one stack or do I want to cast a 400 dmg (each) Meteor Shower that hits many stacks and may even trigger elemental chains anyways?" (damage values estimated of course :P) It's just stupid. Now of course you can get Destructive Magic for your extra skill slot (since it only uses four) but that's still passing up Sorcery which is not the smartest idea... And now that I'm looking at the Warlock's skill wheel, he doesn't require any magic schools to get it. That makes no freaking sense! (incidentally looking at this now - I was going back and playing the campaign on heroic and planning on getting all these ultimates.. screw that for dungeon - there is no way in hell I am going to gimp Raelag like that)

User avatar
Lady Farquad
Scout
Scout
Posts: 179
Joined: 28 Jun 2006
Location: Hispanic heaven

Postby Lady Farquad » Aug 11 2006, 17:26

:yes:
Morior, ergo sum

User avatar
Ketzal
Peasant
Peasant
Posts: 50
Joined: 06 Jan 2006
Location: New Jersey

Postby Ketzal » Aug 11 2006, 17:34

Warlock wrote:I was going back and playing the campaign on heroic and planning on getting all these ultimates.. screw that for dungeon - there is no way in hell I am going to gimp Raelag like that


I did not even bother trying for the ultimates for Haven, Inferno and Dungeon. I got it for Necropolis, but then realized that by the time I got it, the large majority of my foes were Academy which has two immune creatures and Godric with Leadership.

I am currently working on getting it in the Sylvan campaign and plan to get it in the Academy campaign as well.

User avatar
DaemianLucifer
Round Table Hero
Round Table Hero
Posts: 11282
Joined: 06 Jan 2006
Location: City 17

Postby DaemianLucifer » Aug 11 2006, 19:01

I never chased the ultimate.Much better not to.Tactics was great for agrael,and so was dark magic.Destructive was perfect for raelag.And markal owned with summoning.I might have chased it with findan,because thats the only one I find usefull,but its imposible for him to do that(which is good,because else he would be unstopable).

How about ultimate requiring one of these requests:either all the abilities slots full,or all racial abilities+3 full skills(meaning expert and all abilities)out of 5 that would triger the ultimate.

User avatar
Warlock
Pixie
Pixie
Posts: 147
Joined: 07 Jun 2006

Postby Warlock » Aug 11 2006, 19:02

Ketzal wrote:
Warlock wrote:I was going back and playing the campaign on heroic and planning on getting all these ultimates.. screw that for dungeon - there is no way in hell I am going to gimp Raelag like that


I did not even bother trying for the ultimates for Haven, Inferno and Dungeon. I got it for Necropolis, but then realized that by the time I got it, the large majority of my foes were Academy which has two immune creatures and Godric with Leadership.

I am currently working on getting it in the Sylvan campaign and plan to get it in the Academy campaign as well.


You can't get it in Sylvan - Findan starts with Tactics :(

User avatar
Ketzal
Peasant
Peasant
Posts: 50
Joined: 06 Jan 2006
Location: New Jersey

Postby Ketzal » Aug 11 2006, 19:34

DaemianLucifer wrote:I never chased the ultimate.Much better not to.Tactics was great for agrael,and so was dark magic.Destructive was perfect for raelag.And markal owned with summoning.I might have chased it with findan,because thats the only one I find usefull,but its imposible for him to do that(which is good,because else he would be unstopable).


You see, that's the problem with the ultimates. The sacrifice does not equal the gain (with two possible exceptions)

User avatar
Caradoc
Round Table Knight
Round Table Knight
Posts: 1780
Joined: 06 Jan 2006
Location: Marble Falls Texas

Postby Caradoc » Aug 13 2006, 14:47

When you get freaking bored with the game, trying for an ultimate gives you something to play for.
Before you criticize someone, first walk a mile in their shoes. If they get mad, you'll be a mile away. And you'll have their shoes.


Return to “Heroes V-VI”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 18 guests