"Slow" spell doesn't seem to do anything.

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FireMaster
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"Slow" spell doesn't seem to do anything.

Unread postby FireMaster » 08 Aug 2006, 20:14

Does anyone use the "Slow" spell in this game? I figured that when I cast it on a stack of creatures, that those creatures would be bumped back in the list of turns, but it doesn't seem to do that. And of course, I can't really tell if it's slowing them down past whatever I can see in the turns thing.

So does this spell really do anything? Do you guys use it a lot?

You guys wanna know what's cool? Having blood maidens and "Tactics." Those bitches can do damage on the first turn and then run back to where they started from. That's just awesome!

Thanks.

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DaemianLucifer
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Unread postby DaemianLucifer » 08 Aug 2006, 20:47

Hatse and slow affect the targets initiative by 10%(I think its 10),so casting them on faster creatures will do more then casting them on slow creatures.

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Re: "Slow" spell doesn't seem to do anything.

Unread postby omegaweix » 08 Aug 2006, 20:55

FireMaster wrote: You guys wanna know what's cool? Having blood maidens and "Tactics." Those ***** can do damage on the first turn and then run back to where they started from. That's just awesome!
Thanks.
Yeah but if the enemy's got turn first and has a shooter with him they die like flies!

And mentioning "slow" spell:
After reading your post I started thinking and maybe you might be right.... every time when i did cast slow nothing happened to the ATB bar icon of the enchanted creature... normally i thought, that's because i didn't have dark magic (or the initiative of the creature is that high [edit: or low] :-D) so the effect was too insignificant... but in the retail version i have't seen "slow" doing somehing any time!
I know that it worked in the open beta though.
But if this would be true, someone here on the forum would have marked that out sooner....i suppose!?

So maybe it's just us :D
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Unread postby FireMaster » 08 Aug 2006, 21:19

Thanks, guys.

The 10% thing makes sense (sort of). Initiative, Luck and Morale are things that I don't completely understand. So I guess I'll just stick to not using this spell (along with a few others that I've deemed "useless.")

Whenever I use "Slow," it's always a situation where the enemy has a huge creature, and it is about to attack one of my stacks. I figure that I'll cast "Slow" on the enemy creature, and then it would bump it's turn back and I'd get a chance to either move my guys out of the way or attack it with something that can kill it before I lose troops. But it just never seems to do what I want. Maybe I should just learn not to put my creatures in dangerous places. ;|

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Unread postby Ya5MieL » 08 Aug 2006, 21:39

Well, from what i have seen, slow does indeed reduce unit initiative... even tho it isnt much but i think its more than 10%...

i cast it on ancient treants and their initiative went from 7 to 5 and it was actualy noticeable that it slows their turns down..

since that happened in campaign where i had agrael as a hero and troop average initiative of 12... difference was that treants acted once while my troops maked cca 3 moves (average)... while before casting it, it was cca once every 2 turns

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Unread postby juventas » 08 Aug 2006, 21:46

Slow will not affect a creature's turn if it is about to go next. It will, however, affect all the turns afterwards.

Slow works like this:
25% no dark magic
30% basic
35% advanced
40% expert

Haste:
10% no light magic
20% basic
30% advanced
40% expert

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Re: "Slow" spell doesn't seem to do anything.

Unread postby maltz » 08 Aug 2006, 21:50

You should be able to find Pitsu's pdf on exaplining the iniatives. That should clear all your doubts.
FireMaster wrote: You guys wanna know what's cool? Having blood maidens and "Tactics." Those ***** can do damage on the first turn and then run back to where they started from. That's just awesome!
Yeah, no wonder they have long and thin legs.

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Unread postby Sir_Toejam » 08 Aug 2006, 23:49

yeah, the effects of slow aren't as obvious as they used to be in previous Homm games, where it limited their speed instead of initiative. However, I've experienced some pretty sick scenarios in Homm V in the necro campaign:

staff that slows opponents init by 20%
ring of speed (increases your own init by 20%)
ring of celerity (+10%)
then cast mass slow at expert...

some minor change in the first round, but after that, the effect seems to escalate. often, I could take 2 or 3 rounds of action to the AI's one!

I can only imagine what that would be like with "fleshy" troops that have good morale on your side, and throw a mass haste on top of that! Oh wait, I'll get a chance to find out during the last campaign mission, as that's how i designed Isabel:

exp light
exp dark
exp leadership

toss those artifacts on her...
I wonder if there is a "cap" to how much one can change the actual init values for each side?

btw, what actually happens when morale triggers? does it boost your init by 100% for the round?
Last edited by Sir_Toejam on 09 Aug 2006, 00:51, edited 1 time in total.

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Unread postby theGryphon » 09 Aug 2006, 00:26

OK, let's clarify this. The following is directly from the new official HV manual:

Initiative

Creatures' turns in combat have a variable duration, depending on creature Initiative. The higher the value, the more
often the creature will be able to act. The scale is linear: a creature of Initiative 16, for example, a Nightmare, will act
twice as often as a creature with Initiative 8 such as a Pit Lord.

The default value of Initiative for the creatures ranges from 5 (Earth Elemental) to 19 (Phoenix). Heroes have an
Initiative of 10 by default, but there's more to it and we'll focus on them below. Notice also that the Initiative value is
shown as an integer in the various in-game information panels, even when it should have a decimal part (say a +20%
to Initiative 14 should give 16.8), but the decimal part is definitely not lost, and is taken into account by the game.

The order of the creatures' coming turns is represented by their positions on the ATB bar (the bar with the creature
icons at the bottom of the screen). Various events can change that order, as we will see below, but in the absence of
any particular event, you can visualize the future of the combat here, and plan your moves.

The ATB Value

Each stack or hero on the battlefield has an ATB value, between 0 and 1, a bit like an ATB gauge filling itself over time.
The stack gets to act when its ATB value reaches 1. Upon any normal action and without any special effect(s), this
value starts again at zero, i.e., the gauge is depleted by the action, and has to re-fill.

The rate at which the ATB value increases depends linearly on the creature's Initiative. That's why a higher Initiative
allows more actions: the ATB gauge is quicker to fill.

As a side note, creatures can be affected by spells or effects lasting for a
certain duration (Weakness, Endurance, Freeze, etc.). This duration is
expressed in "turns" in the creature information panel displaying the
active effects. These turns are calculated based on an Initiative of 10,
whatever the caster and the target. They are not the creature's turns.

For example, a Mass Endurance spell cast on Sprites (Initiative 14) and
Treants (Initiative 7), with a duration of 10 turns will last the same time
on both. But the Sprite will have 14 actions during this time, while the
Treants will have only 7 (not counting waiting or any other modifying
effect).

Advanced

There is no way to see this ATB value while playing. But the previous comment allows you to see the passing of time: any creature
with an active effect displays the remaining duration of the effect. Thus, each time the ATB Bar stops to wait for your action, you
can see how much time has passed, and with some mathematics, calculate the ATB value increase during this time: during the
time t, the ATB value of a stack of Initiative I has increased by t*I/10.

Starting Combat

When starting a battle, the starting ATB values are randomly decided: each stack receives an ATB value between 0 and
0.25. From there, the ATB values increase the usual way, depending on the stack's Initiative, and the first to reach 1 is
the first to play.

This system allows for some randomization and surprises in combat, forcing the players to adapt their strategies to the
situation. However, high initiative units will still get their first turn before low initiative units, as their ATB value will
increase faster. For example, a Nightmare (Initiative 16) starting at 0 (worst case), would get his first turn before a Pit
Lord (Initiative 8) starting at 0.25 (best case). This means that the Nightmare will always go first, and often act twice
before the Pit Lord can act.

There are many modifying factors to units' initiative (see below), but only one affects their
starting positions specifically - the Swift Striker specialization of the Sylvan hero Wyngaal.
All the creatures in Wyngaal's army have a bonus to their starting ATB value of 0.02 per
hero level. So, instead of starting somewhere in the [0;0.25] interval, they start between
0.02*level and 0.25+0.02*level. For example, at level 20, their starting ATB value will be in
[0.40;0.65]. Being almost sure to strike first, and maybe even twice before the enemy
moves, you can expect Emerald Dragons under Wyngaal's command to be particularly deadly!

In-Combat Modifiers

Apart from a "real action" when its turn comes (attack, move, cast a spell, use a special ability), a
creature or hero can Wait or Defend. Upon waiting, the ATB Value of the stack is reset to 0.5, instead of
0. That allows the creature to delay its next action, without losing a complete turn. Upon defending, the
creature takes a defensive pose for the turn: its ATB value is reset to 0 and its defense is increased by
30% until its next action.

Sometimes, creatures can have good or bad Morale (see p.194). Good morale resets the creature's ATB
value to 0.5 instead of 0 after the creature's action. Bad morale resets the ATB value to 0.5 before the
creature's action.

There are many skills, abilities, spells and artifacts that modify the creatures' turns in combat, either directly or
through improving Initiative. These effects are described in their respective sections. Some of them, however, directly
act on the ATB value, and deserve some further elaboration below:

Divine Guidance (Leadership) adds 0.33 to the ATB value of the target, capped to 1: if the
value is already higher than 0.67, you will lose part of the boost, but the point can be to act
before your enemy, rather than act more often. This ability is only accessible to Knights.

Teleport Assault (Logistics) adds 0.5 to the ATB value of the teleported stack,
capped to 1. Accessible to Demon Lords, Warlocks and Wizards, the effect is clearly
superior to the Knight's Divine Guidance, since the boost is higher, and you get to
teleport the unit. However, it costs 8 Mana, while Divine Guidance can be cast for
free. That can be a problem for Warlocks in particular.

Tremors (War Machines) damages and stuns all the creatures behind the castle
walls in a siege (including friendly ones). The stunning effect is a 0.1 ATB value
reduction. This ability can be learned by Demon Lords, Warlocks and Wizards.

When cast with Master of Ice knowledge (Destructive Magic), Ice Bolt and Circle of Winter
have a Freezing effect.
When hit by Ice Bolt, the target is frozen for 0.3 turns (spell turns of Initiative 10),
during which its ATB value does not increase (an effective reduction by
0.3*10/Initiative). Additionally, its ATB value gets reduced by a random value
between 0 and 0.3.
Circle of Winter has the same effect, except it is divided between the targets: if 2
targets are hit, the Freezing effect duration is 0.15 turns and the additional random
reduction is chosen between 0 and 0.15. If 3 targets are hit, it's 0.1 instead of 0.15,
etc.
Note that the ATB value can drop below 0. Freezing effectiveness doesn't depend on whether
the target is about to act or has just acted.

When cast with Master of Storms knowledge (Destructive Magic), Lightning Bolt
and Chain Lightning have a Stunning effect: the ATB value of the (first) target is
multiplied by 0.3. For example, an ATB value of 0.80 gets reduced to 0.24, while an
ATB value of 0.10 gets reduced to 0.03.
Thus, Stunning is more effective than Freezing against stacks almost ready to act,
but drops to next to uselessness on stacks that have just acted. Note that "just
acted" here is not about the order, but the not-displayed-in-game ATB value: the
last creature to have acted could already have nearly refilled its ATB gauge.

Shield Bash is a Squire ability, shared with the Footman and the Conscript. Upon attacking the
enemy, they have a chance to stun it. The stunned enemy does not retaliate, and its ATB value
is reset to 0. Despite the verbal similarity, this "stun" has nothing to do with the previous
"Stunning" effect of the Lightning spells.

Warding Arrows is a Master Hunter ability, causing his arrows to sometimes delay the target's
next turn as it is hit. More precisely, a warding arrow reduces the target's ATB value by 0.2.

Agrael's specialization, Aura of Swiftness, increases the Initiative of the creatures in his
army by 1% per hero level. That means a level 10 Agrael will boost the Initiative of his
army by 10%. As he tends to have already fast troops, like Nightmares or Cerberi, this
makes sure that they have the first strike in combat, and often even twice over.

On the contrary, Raelag's Intimidate decreases the Initiative of enemy creatures by 1%
per Raelag's level. While Agrael favors him having fast troops, Raelag's makes him more
effective against fast troops, as the net effect will be higher.

Finally, the Week of Idleness and the Week of Calm reduce the Initiative of creatures by 20%. The first one affects
Haven, Sylvan and Academy creatures, while the second targets Necropolis, Inferno and Dungeon creatures.

Heroes Initiative

Heroes can perform different actions: wait and defend (even if defending doesn't make much sense since they cannot
be attacked), directly attack an enemy stack, use a special ability or cast a spell. For all these, they have an Initiative
of 10. However, by mastering the Sorcery skill, they can shorten the time to wait for their next action after casting a
spell.

With no Sorcery knowledge, the hero ATB value is reset to 0 after casting a spell, as usual. However, it is
reset to 0.1 with Basic Sorcery, 0.2 with Advanced Sorcery and 0.3 with Expert Sorcery. Note that this
happens only when casting a spell, not when using an ability (Benediction, Consume Corpse...) or
attacking.

There is, however, an ability that makes it even shorter: Imbue Arrow (an Avenger ability) which resets
the Ranger's ATB value to 0.5 after imbuing. Later attacks actually using the imbued spell reset the ATB
value to 0, like any other attack.

In the same spirit, the Dark Magic and Light Magic Master of... abilities add Mass versions
of some spells. When these Mass spells are cast, the ATB value of the caster is reset to 0.5,
whatever his/her mastery of the Sorcery skill. The normal versions of the spells do not
profit from this faster casting.

Jhora the Wizard has the Windspeaker specialization, allowing her to act even more quickly
in combat. She gets a 0.05 bonus to her Initiative per level, for spellcasting as well as any
other action. For example, she starts at 10.05 at level 1, and reaches 11 at level 20.
Moreover, she also starts with basic Sorcery, which makes sure you won't have to chase
that skill. How noticeable is the speed increase? The few percents per level do not seem
like much, but they at least allow Jhora to systematically act before her enemies, which can
often turn into a devastating strategic asset.
I believe in science and that science can explain everything.
Because God has made it all work in such a beautiful way...

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Unread postby Sir_Toejam » 09 Aug 2006, 01:00

gives whole new meaning to: RTFM.

:-D

which of course, would also have answered my question about morale:
Good morale resets the creature's ATB value to 0.5 instead of 0 after the creature's action. Bad morale resets the ATB value 0.5 before the creature's action.
damn fine manual, if a bit on the large side for a PDF.

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Unread postby Ari » 09 Aug 2006, 16:30

The point here is that if you cast slow on a creature that's next on the bar, you're likely to have little immediate effect. If a creature has 95/100 "points" needed to act again, and an initiative of 11, your casting of (basic) slow isn't sufficient to have ANY effect on their next turn. It's not that the spell is buggy or useless; it's simply not designed to do what you want in that situation (delay the enemy's movement)

On the other hand, if you cast basic slow on a creature that has JUST acted, you'll see their position slide back as expected.

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Unread postby FireMaster » 09 Aug 2006, 21:11

Thanks a lot for the info, guys. This stuff really explains a lot.

But I wanted to add something...
When I used the word "useless," I wasn't trying to imply that I thought the spell was buggy or stupid, or whatever. Ijust meant that I couldn't fit it into my personal playing style, so I don't use it. Some of the other spells that I can't seem to make work for me are Haste, Vulnerability, Righteous Might, and a few others. It's not that I think they're buggy....it's just that I don't really use them when I play.

But anyway, this is all a moot point, because I Just got a spell last night that DOES do what I want. I can now use "Teleport Assault" to teleport a bigger stronger creature in and use it immediately. That's sure a pretty cool spell. Teleporting 36 deep hydras into the center of everything really helps things along. :D

Thanks,
FM.

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Unread postby Sir_Toejam » 09 Aug 2006, 21:19

yeah, that's pretty useful in spots.

funny thing though, by the time i got teleport assault, my warlock was powerful enough with meteor storm to do more damage with that than a large stack of hydras.

I actually found the spell more usefull as a way to preserve troops. get one stack on the screeen, pummel the enemies with spells, and when they get close, teleport your stack to the other side of the battlefield.

lather, rinse repeat for typically no loss scenarios without having resurection.

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Unread postby DaemianLucifer » 09 Aug 2006, 21:33

Sir_Toejam wrote: funny thing though, by the time i got teleport assault, my warlock was powerful enough with meteor storm to do more damage with that than a large stack of hydras.
I got TA as soon as I could(begining of map 2),and used it quite often.Hydras were my second best in this campaign,right behind blood furries.

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Unread postby FireMaster » 09 Aug 2006, 21:36

Sir_Toejam wrote:yeah, that's pretty useful in spots.

funny thing though, by the time i got teleport assault, my warlock was powerful enough with meteor storm to do more damage with that than a large stack of hydras.

I actually found the spell more usefull as a way to preserve troops. get one stack on the screeen, pummel the enemies with spells, and when they get close, teleport your stack to the other side of the battlefield.

lather, rinse repeat for typically no loss scenarios without having resurection.
Wow, that's something that I hadn't thought of. Very good idea. I mean very VERY good idea.

Somehow, my brain thought that you weren't supposed to teleport anything unless you were going to use it to "assult" something. ;| I never actually thought of using it to move troops out of danger. What a great idea. That's kinda what I was trying to accomplish with "Slow" in my first post. Wow. I love this game.

Thanks,
FM.

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Unread postby FireMaster » 09 Aug 2006, 21:40

I'm currently still on Map2. I'm having a little trouble, but I think I'll be able to finish the map this time around. Things seem to be going okay for me so far...with the exception of that new lady hero that joined me getting her butt kicked near one of those underground towns. :S But everything else seems to be going great(ish).

I mean, I've got 2 of the puzzle pieces, and I've now got 3 of the towns......I don't think I can lose at this point. (but I've said that before) :D

FM.

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Unread postby stijn » 09 Aug 2006, 22:27

teleport (assault) would be way much more usefull if you were able to teleport behind castle walls (perhaps on expert only, like in h3). that was my main trick with fortress, as soon as my dragon flies got their turn, my hero would teleport the large stack of hydras (blinded or not) behind the castle walls to block their shooters. they do devastating amounts of damage when surrounded by 3-5 other units :D

but now they just stand infront of the gate waiting and waiting. it takes very very long to take down castle walls, and since the moat is so powerfull, you have to enter through the gate usually, which seems to take about 10 turns without warmachines :(

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Unread postby PhoenixReborn » 10 Aug 2006, 03:29

stijn wrote:teleport (assault) would be way much more usefull if you were able to teleport behind castle walls (perhaps on expert only, like in h3). (
As of patch 1.2 that is how it is...I was just playing with Agrael in c2m4 and got destroyed because I had only destructive magic. I reloaded and built up my light magic...the teleport description said something about with expert light magic ( which I had ) it was possible to teleport units inside castle walls.

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Unread postby Qurqirish Dragon » 10 Aug 2006, 16:38

FireMaster wrote:
Sir_Toejam wrote:yeah, that's pretty useful in spots.

funny thing though, by the time i got teleport assault, my warlock was powerful enough with meteor storm to do more damage with that than a large stack of hydras.

I actually found the spell more usefull as a way to preserve troops. get one stack on the screeen, pummel the enemies with spells, and when they get close, teleport your stack to the other side of the battlefield.

lather, rinse repeat for typically no loss scenarios without having resurection.
Wow, that's something that I hadn't thought of. Very good idea. I mean very VERY good idea.

Somehow, my brain thought that you weren't supposed to teleport anything unless you were going to use it to "assult" something. ;| I never actually thought of using it to move troops out of danger. What a great idea. That's kinda what I was trying to accomplish with "Slow" in my first post. Wow. I love this game.

Thanks,
FM.
And remember: using TA to move your ranged-attackers (particularly marksmen if you can get them!) out of melee range works nicely as well.


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