Why is no one OUTRAGED with the artifact situation?

The new Heroes games produced by Ubisoft. Please specify which game you are referring to in your post.

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ShadeOfSandro
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Postby ShadeOfSandro » Aug 9 2006, 20:50

I would like to see the artificer skill use artifacts to make some cool unique artifacts. I'm sure that would throw off balance but I'm willing to wait. I mean, how cool would an artifact that allowed Gremlins to repair golems one extra time be? Kind of like the bow that gave all ranged one extra attack (talk about overpowered titan zerg ftw every time.)

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DaemianLucifer
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Postby DaemianLucifer » Aug 9 2006, 20:59

ShadeOfSandro wrote:Kind of like the bow that gave all ranged one extra attack

Also known as ammo cart :D

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ShadeOfSandro
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Postby ShadeOfSandro » Aug 9 2006, 21:32

Yeah, i know about the ammo cart, wasn't saying I wanted the bow, was just comparing the gremlin artifact to it. It could be Called a Master Hammer, or something along those lines.

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Jolly Joker
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Postby Jolly Joker » Aug 10 2006, 7:16

Just for info:
There are over 70 artifacts currently in the game PLUS the Wands and Scrolls.

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Meandor
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Postby Meandor » Aug 10 2006, 7:39

70? Are they all used in the game?
...

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Jolly Joker
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Postby Jolly Joker » Aug 10 2006, 8:23

If you have a look into the artifacts section of the manual (the new one with the Ubi seal of approval) you can have a look at them- As I said in the poll thread, on a normal map you'll stumble maybe on 5 minor and one or two major arties. The trouble is, that there simply are not so many minor (irrelevant) ones. What that means is, that you'll get doubles and even triples of them, especially after killing another hero, while you rarely get to see the really good ones.
The manual lists 23 minor artifacts, 26 major artifacts and 20 relics.. That means, it's all the same amount, roughly. However, you won't find a map with each player having access to, let's say 3 minor, 3 major and 3 relics. Instead the map will look like 4 minors, 2 majors and 1 relic most of the time - not counting the artifacts you may buy at a merchant's or get via chests and so on.
On the other hand no one wants a plethora of useless artifacts on their heroes, so having more minor artifacts isn't the solution here, I guess. Instead, the maps should simply contain more major artifacts and relics and less minor ones. Going with the numbers provided, I'd say a Big map as a rule should give each player access to 2 minors, 3 majors and 2 relics (at most) - which would certainly eliminate the problem of seeing3 Four Leave Clovers, Feather Capes, certain Boots and so on all of the time and in insane quantities.

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DaemianLucifer
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Postby DaemianLucifer » Aug 10 2006, 9:38

Jolly Joker wrote:Just for info:
There are over 70 artifacts currently in the game PLUS the Wands and Scrolls.


And how many were there in HIII?Around 130.And in HIV around 170.So 70 is too few,compared to this.

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Jolly Joker
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Postby Jolly Joker » Aug 10 2006, 10:11

No, there were too much. Heroes IV and the artifacts/scrolls/potions situation was actually rediculous. One of the aspects I really hated. All those Wands and Arrows and silly stuff. For me a hero isn't meant to run around like a store or something or a Christmas tree full of shiny things. Do I want my hero to have 2 dozen Wands which he can equip one of, but actually doesn't use anyway? No.
And H 3? All those additional Eagle Eye and Mysticism artefacts? No one needed them in the first place. Sure, WoG made more about them, but still.
Anyway, it's not a question of quantity, it's a question of distribution. It doesn't make sense to have 46 major and relic artifact in the game when you may get only one or two of them on any given map - but a dozen of the 23 minors. As I said, no one wants to run around with a plethora of actually useless junk. Or do you?
I should maybe add, that I have no problem imagining more artifacts in the game; but nor for the sake of simply having more artifacts, no matter what. They should be useful and interesting but - as I said - the problem is basically, that the map situation does not reflect the artifact situation in that minor artifacts are over-represented on the maps.

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Gaidal Cain
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Postby Gaidal Cain » Aug 10 2006, 11:22

I don't quite follow you JJ. First you say that the problem is that we have a relatively small number of minors when compared to how many one collects in a map, and thus correctly distinguish between the number of available artifacts in the game as a whole and the number placed on a map, but then you say that increasing the former will automatically lead to an increase in the latter, which contradicts your earlier statement. I do agree that additional artifacts shouldn't be forced a la the eagle eye artifacts of H3, but there could surely be room for more. There is, for instance, no artifacts that boost magic resistance, or affects hero attacks, or affects damage done by spellcasting creatures. Coming up with interesting effects and adding some extra artifacts in the expansion is not an unreasonable demand IMO.
You don't want to make enemies in Nuclear Engineering. -- T. Pratchett

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Postby Orfinn » Aug 10 2006, 11:33

Also, in a interview or something not long ago (think it was Fabrice himself). They whispered about being able to sell artifacts in new buildings in each town or on the adventure map, in an upcoming patch or expansion. There was something about this, I just cant remember where I found it ;| This would solve dulplicate artifacts, and getting a hunk of cash at the same time, and anyone remember the altars in H3 where you could sacrifice artifacts for experience if you were good or neutral? Would be nice to see that back too.

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Jolly Joker
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Postby Jolly Joker » Aug 10 2006, 12:16

GC, I don't know whether we understand each other correctly here.
I said, that the minors are over-represented on the maps, because on the maps I saw there are lots of minor artifacts placed, but not many majors and minors.
What I said was, if you have 23 minors, 26 majors and 20 Relics all in all, it doesn't make much sense to place 5 minors and 1 major into the vicinity of each player's starting position - which is exactly what is sone on most of the maps. So the problem isn't that there are not enough artifacts, the problem is, that you won't see a lot of them because you won't find many majors and only rarely a relic on the normal mp maps (we have 12 only, so no wonder).
So, basically, with the situation at hand (no "wasted" arties) it makes a lot more sense to give less artifacts, but more of the good ones - that's why I gave something like 2-3-2 for a big map instead of the more prevailing 6-1-0. or so.
That said, there's nothing wrong with having more artifacts; but it's not the number of artifacts that is the source of the problem that the OP mentions.

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Alamar
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Postby Alamar » Aug 10 2006, 13:11

That explanation does make a lot of sense.

One thing that would be nice when you're placing random artifacts is that the game wouldn't create a duplicate random artifact unless there were already 1 of each of that class of artifacts in the game.

Example: We have 26 minor artifacts now (or so). Lets say that we have 6 factions on a map and each faction gets 4 minors in their starting area. Therefore there are 24 minor artifacts placed on the map. The game should make sure that out of those 24 that there are no duplicates.

The above isn't a perfect solution but I think that it would help a lot!!

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Gaidal Cain
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Postby Gaidal Cain » Aug 10 2006, 13:26

@@JJ: OK, now I see what you're saying. I can partly agree, but we have to remember that minors are also more likely to turn up at special locations as shipwrecked peasants and such, so it's not only the mapmakers who is a t fault. I think there should be some more minor artifacts, for varietys sake. It's good that there are artifacts that affects two different stats in "odd" combinations, but there aren't that many artifacts that does something truely unique, apart from the majors. I think that, for example, one that gives a stun effect to a hero's default attack might be fun while still being a minor artifact.
You don't want to make enemies in Nuclear Engineering. -- T. Pratchett

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Jolly Joker
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Postby Jolly Joker » Aug 10 2006, 14:30

I agree with both of the last posts.

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DaemianLucifer
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Postby DaemianLucifer » Aug 10 2006, 17:56

The addition of potions and items in HIV was actually a good thing.Its more sensible that heroes will have regular armor when theyre weak then some artefact.The problem was the messy inventory.A single icon with a number nex to it would be much better.

I like Alamar's proposal a lot.Maybe a mapmaker could specify an appeareance number for each of the artifact,with the default being set that each would appear at least once before repetition,and each with a same chanc of appearing.

And,of course,more unique artifacts of any rank is always a good thing.

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Lady Farquad
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Postby Lady Farquad » Aug 10 2006, 20:18

Bravo Alamar.
(I wish the combined artifacts back... :yummy: )
Morior, ergo sum

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soupnazii
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Postby soupnazii » Aug 10 2006, 21:37

Please vote:

More Artifacts

anonymous

Postby anonymous » Aug 11 2006, 4:51

Yea I found the potions in 4 to almost always be a waste of space. Im torn on wether or not I liked the just regular ho-hum armor in 4. It was nice to have, but it also took the "specialness" of artifacts away. Anywho, I still want my 4 trinket slots back. Yea, having to choose what artifacts you equip takes more strategy, but ok Ill be honest, I want my hero to be powerful.

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soupnazii
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Postby soupnazii » Aug 11 2006, 5:59

well, with the current amount of artifacts, think about it: if you had the four miscelaneous slots, what would you put in them? you 4 clovers? even then you would still have like 5 other clovers left in the backpack. i think that extra slots are pointless before they make more artifacts for some diversity.

edit:
oh yeah, and please vote here too

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LordErtz
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Postby LordErtz » Aug 11 2006, 15:27

I was asking for at least 1 misc slot. I hate having a damn clover in the place of a shield, it doesnt seem right. 1 or 2 slots max would be excellent.


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