Guys, give UBI a breath...

The new Heroes games produced by Ubisoft. Please specify which game you are referring to in your post.

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Jolly Joker
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Postby Jolly Joker » Aug 3 2006, 9:12

wimfrits wrote:
Jolly Joker wrote:The question is, what Ubi COULD have done.


So timeline is the fixed factor and quality is the variable one. I think it is a pity current industries adapt that strategy and see no reason why consumers should find that behavior excuseable.

But even then, if quality is indeed an issue, Ubi SHOULD have planned development better so that they COULD have released a better product.

Would you read that out of my post? I said, the OTHER option would have been to release later. How you construct a fixed timeline out of that is beyond me.

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Postby Kalah » Aug 3 2006, 9:39

DaemianLucifer wrote:When someone says "Would you buy a half done car?" you say "But games are not a bloody SUV", yet when someone says "Would you steal a car", wheres that SUV comment then?


I still don't see your point. Are you saying people don't compare piracy to stealing cars?

mr.hackcrag wrote:Why should I make myself content to play an average game? I shouldn't have to lower my expectations...


Indeed. Yet I can't help giggling at the paradox of the fans' screaming at the top of their lungs: "I want perfection and I want it now!!"

Jolly Joker wrote:You can pick up the car now and drive it, and we'll come to you in a couple month and install the refueler. By the way, there are some other minor glitches we'll repair on the way.


Yeah, except that Heroes 5 can still be used, whereas a car with no fuel can't be used at all. Now do you see what I mean with these analogies? They just don't cover the issue properly; the gaming industry is very special in that regard.
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wimfrits
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Postby wimfrits » Aug 3 2006, 9:55

Jolly Joker wrote:Would you read that out of my post? I said, the OTHER option would have been to release later. How you construct a fixed timeline out of that is beyond me.


Argh. Sorry, I seem to have misinterpreted the second part and am generally frustrated by the fact that companies stick to fixed timelines.

I think it's a pity that the second option usually is not an option.
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Postby Meandor » Aug 3 2006, 10:12

Yeah, except that Heroes 5 can still be used, whereas a car with no fuel can't be used at all.


Can`t be used at all? You can do various nice things in car without fuel.
...

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Postby Kalah » Aug 3 2006, 10:20

Let's not get into that... there are kids around. ;)
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Postby Orfinn » Aug 3 2006, 11:10

Meandor wrote:You can do various nice things in car without fuel.


Yup especially one thing, a bit too tight to do that in a car maybe but...there are many styles solving that issue when it comes to a activity like that. Humans have proved near impossible things to be possible before... :D

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Postby Kalah » Aug 3 2006, 12:46

Ah, yes - you're talking about playing Scrabble, right?
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Postby Angelspit » Aug 3 2006, 13:18

Scrabble in the car is fun:
"Mmm baby, could you move your rack a little? I want to hit that premium square..."

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Postby Marzhin » Aug 3 2006, 13:35

Angelspit wrote:Scrabble in the car is fun:
"Mmm baby, could you move your rack a little? I want to hit that premium square..."


"Honey, I need some time to think. Where is the 'Wait button' ?"

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Postby Orfinn » Aug 3 2006, 13:36

Hahaa! yeah exactly :D

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Postby Ethric » Aug 3 2006, 13:51

*cough* Would the gentlemen please refrain from lewd offtopicness in this very serious thread? ;)
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Postby Warlock » Aug 3 2006, 14:36

stijn wrote:
If it wasn't for the editor that increased replayability a hundredfold, the games popularity would be if not a hundredfold less, then a lot less.
only a very small % of all heroes players download maps. i think h3 sold about 500 000 copies (really just a guess), and i think only about 25 000 folks were downloading maps. so what you're saying isn't correct at all i'm afraid.

don't underestimate how many people just play the game and never visit any heroes sites. i think those people are at least 80% of the sold copies


I just want to point out here that I never downloaded maps for Heroes 3. Frankly I could not find any decent ones (I don't think fansites were quite as common as they are today). I downloaded some awesome ones when I borrowed Heroes 2 from a friend tho - which was the whole reason I bought Heroes 3. But Heroes 3 had some good ones bundled in with it too (the Greek Mythology one was my favorite).

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Postby GatorG » Aug 3 2006, 16:00

I mostly only played XL maps, but there were 5-10 good maps for HoMM III and HoMM IV that were playermade...but of course there are about 500-1000 playermade maps...it's still worth it though to find those 5-10.

G (-:

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Postby DaemianLucifer » Aug 3 2006, 16:52

Kalah wrote:I still don't see your point. Are you saying people don't compare piracy to stealing cars?


They are,and thats what I hate.

Kalah wrote:Indeed. Yet I can't help giggling at the paradox of the fans' screaming at the top of their lungs: "I want perfection and I want it now!!"


Yet there was a petition to postpone the game until its finished,so no paradox,just "We want perfection,no matter how long it takes!"

@Jolly Joker

Funny how you are saying that fans should be satysfied with the game released unfinished,yet they should wait for the editor to be finished before it comes out.So while its ok to play the game in its current form,and patch it in due time,its not ok to do the same with the editor.

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Postby Jolly Joker » Aug 3 2006, 17:21

DaemianLucifer wrote:
@Jolly Joker

Funny how you are saying that fans should be satysfied with the game released unfinished,yet they should wait for the editor to be finished before it comes out.So while its ok to play the game in its current form,and patch it in due time,its not ok to do the same with the editor.

Completely at a loss, what you are meaning there. Could you elaborate?

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Postby mr.hackcrag » Aug 3 2006, 17:23

DaemianLucifer wrote:
Kalah wrote:
Kalah wrote:Indeed. Yet I can't help giggling at the paradox of the fans' screaming at the top of their lungs: "I want perfection and I want it now!!"


Yet there was a petition to postpone the game until its finished,so no paradox,just "We want perfection,no matter how long it takes!"


And on top of that, when you consider after all the time that has passed, the developers have still proven themselves incapable of even making half decent patches, designing enough maps, and so much other drama that's been played out.

Because of the lack luster progression of much needed fixes, they have only humiliated themselves, dissappointed many fans, and further soured the name of the homm franchise.

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Postby DaemianLucifer » Aug 3 2006, 17:50

Compare the following two quotes:

Jolly Joker wrote:It is by no means lazyness or inability that makes finishing the existing maps not that easy a process. I think, this analogy describes things well: Imagine the editor would be something like an electronic gadget, for example a DVD recorder. What you expect, when you buy it, is a sleek case with some buttons and dials that come with a manual. What you definitely wouldn't want is an OPEN case with naked wires you have to have to manually pull out of their plugs and replug manually for every action - with the electricity switched on and without a manual.


Jolly Joker wrote:But back to the initial question. Let's take another analogy, since cars are so popular. Let's say, a car had no resale value whatsoever or if it had, the resale value was NOT dependant on age or mileage. And your car dealer is giving you a phone call and says, "Man, we got your car, right here on the yard. Problem, though. The gas tank is full, but there is currently no way to refuel. Once it's empty you can roll only through your home town. You can pick up the car now and drive it, and we'll come to you in a couple month and install the refueler. By the way, there are some other minor glitches we'll repair on the way. You may have trouble transporting other people sometimes because the seats may not unfold correctly, for example. Of course, we are sorry to say that you'll have to pay the full price if you come and get it now."
The way I see this I would immediately storm to the dealer and buy if
a) I'd want that car no matter what and buying it now would mean being able to drive it now
b) I'd trust my dealer and the car manufacturer to do as promised - which might depend on my experience with the dealer (Ubi) and the manufacturer (Nival) previously.
c) I don't mind working with incomplete things for a time being

I would certainly wait with the buy, if I could not say yes to all of the above points.


The first one is states how we should be patient with the editor because its not finished,even though there are(many)people that wouldnt mind working with it.The second one states how you dont mind having an unfinished game,as long as it will be patched later on.See my point now?

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Postby Kalah » Aug 3 2006, 18:23

In all the negative talk about Ubi there is still lots af argumentation based upon individual opinion. This fact precipitates a lot of back-and-forth arguing leading exactly nowhere: "The game is good and Ubi have done a great job." arguments vs "This and that sucks and Ubi have betrayed everything that made the series great" tend to take over from that point...

I really don't know where this leads, all I can say is that there will be no consensus on this, not now, not in two years - we are still arguing the qualities of Heroes II vs III for Pete's sake.

Keep the discussion going, this is nice.
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Postby Jolly Joker » Aug 3 2006, 18:35

DaemianLucifer wrote:Compare the following two quotes:

Jolly Joker wrote:It is by no means lazyness or inability that makes finishing the existing maps not that easy a process. I think, this analogy describes things well: Imagine the editor would be something like an electronic gadget, for example a DVD recorder. What you expect, when you buy it, is a sleek case with some buttons and dials that come with a manual. What you definitely wouldn't want is an OPEN case with naked wires you have to have to manually pull out of their plugs and replug manually for every action - with the electricity switched on and without a manual.


Jolly Joker wrote:But back to the initial question. Let's take another analogy, since cars are so popular. Let's say, a car had no resale value whatsoever or if it had, the resale value was NOT dependant on age or mileage. And your car dealer is giving you a phone call and says, "Man, we got your car, right here on the yard. Problem, though. The gas tank is full, but there is currently no way to refuel. Once it's empty you can roll only through your home town. You can pick up the car now and drive it, and we'll come to you in a couple month and install the refueler. By the way, there are some other minor glitches we'll repair on the way. You may have trouble transporting other people sometimes because the seats may not unfold correctly, for example. Of course, we are sorry to say that you'll have to pay the full price if you come and get it now."
The way I see this I would immediately storm to the dealer and buy if
a) I'd want that car no matter what and buying it now would mean being able to drive it now
b) I'd trust my dealer and the car manufacturer to do as promised - which might depend on my experience with the dealer (Ubi) and the manufacturer (Nival) previously.
c) I don't mind working with incomplete things for a time being

I would certainly wait with the buy, if I could not say yes to all of the above points.


The first one is states how we should be patient with the editor because its not finished,even though there are(many)people that wouldnt mind working with it.The second one states how you dont mind having an unfinished game,as long as it will be patched later on.See my point now?

Yes, I understand now. You mean, if they can publish a buggy game and patch it later they could publish a buggy editor as well and patch that one later as well.
Good point, on first look, but not valid here. The game may have (and has had) some bugs, but that didn't stop it from being well playable for most of the people. MP stability was an issue not obvious at the moment of publishing. However, the editor simply would not have been usable as it was. Worse, there had been the danger to edit things for the whole game (the editor was a REAL editor). So the simple fact is that the editor was not nearly finished, while the game was. So-to-speak.

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Postby OliverFA » Aug 3 2006, 18:46

DaemianLucifer wrote:
Kalah wrote:Yet there was a petition to postpone the game until its finished,so no paradox,just "We want perfection,no matter how long it takes!"


The asnwer would be: "Forever".

No matter how well you want to do something. You can always add more factions. You can always better balance the creatures, you will always be ablo to improve the AI. At some point you have to stop working on it. The key is where that point is, and if Heroes V had surpassed or no that point.


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