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The new Heroes games produced by Ubisoft. Please specify which game you are referring to in your post.

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Ethric
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Postby Ethric » Aug 2 2006, 20:54

Warlock wrote:
Ethric wrote: would you buy a car that could only be driven on certain ways?


That's not really accurate. You *can't* drive a car everywhere. You can't drive it across the ocean for example, or up a cliff, or whatever. You are limited by roads. And there are other limiting factors like distance and gasoline. You can only drive a car in places that are accessable to you, just like right now you can only play the game in maps that are accessable to you.


And I *didn't* say you should be able to drive the car "everywhere". I said only certain ways. Or roads, as you say. Read what I actually write before you try to be clever :tonguehands:

Besides, you also seem to have neglected my first paragraph, where I stated my reasons for why analogies are needless anyway in this example. I just tried to make a car-analogy that seemed to me a bit more on the money than the one mentioned before. I really shouldn't have I guess.

Warlock wrote:Definately. I mean, even something like the HoMM3 editor I found a bit cumbersome. I could use it, but making a map with it was fairly tedious (especially the whole "everything is a doodad" type deal where you had to place each group of trees and mountains individually, etc). If they can really make the editor user friendly, it's definately worth waiting for.


Ah but that was done in H4, with an editor far superior to the one in H3. So, it better be as good as or better than that one.
Last edited by Ethric on Aug 2 2006, 21:00, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby mr.hackcrag » Aug 2 2006, 20:58

Kalah wrote:Sure, but the arguments for availability of an editor at release are so... well, lame. People are pulling out all sorts of analogies.. "would you buy a car if the brakes were to be installed later?" - come on - it's a game, not a bloody SUV! And the map editor is a program designed to enable anyone to build new scenarios to go with the game; a good car-analogy would be releasing a manual on how to fix your car so it can do other things than what it could when you bought it. I know of no other industry doing this. In fact, I'd consider it normal if the fans had to make the editor themselves...


Didn't the developers not release a manual for this game? Once again, dedicated fans did their work for them.

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Postby Meandor » Aug 2 2006, 21:06

Didn't the developers not release a manual for this game? Once again, dedicated fans did their work for them.


They released something, something they called manual and strategy guide which were **** and had no valuable information.
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Postby Kalah » Aug 2 2006, 21:06

Ethric wrote:would you buy a car that could only be driven on certain ways?


Personally, no. But there are such cars in production. Try driving a Ferrari up a Norwegian forest road... :D

And although I agree with the complaint that a game should have a certain degree of replayability and - in this case - contain a decent roster of scenarios, I think that Heroes fans have gotten a wee bit spoiled. Fact is, it has become a tradition to have good editors and thus increase replayability hundred fold in the Heroes series. So when something like this comes along, they are disappointed. I know I would be disappointed if my new snowboard game only had three slopes, or if my new football game only had four teams... But I certainly wouldn't expect the producers to come up with an editor for me to make my own. I'd be disappointed at the initial lack of content, but there's also the possibility that the producers have fallen asleep a bit: "We don't need to make too many maps, the gamers will take care of that themselves." A legitimate complaint, to be sure, but I'd stay with the original complaint that there is too little content in the game to begin with.

DaemianLucifer wrote:Interesting how this argument is used here,yet when it comes to piracy vs. stealing its somehow overlooked.


What?? What are you talking about? And since when has the argument that piracy is stealing not been used in the piracy discussion?
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Postby Ethric » Aug 2 2006, 21:13

Kalah wrote:And although I agree with the complaint that a game should have a certain degree of replayability and - in this case - contain a decent roster of scenarios, I think that Heroes fans have gotten a wee bit spoiled. Fact is, it has become a tradition to have good editors and thus increase replayability hundred fold in the Heroes series. So when something like this comes along, they are disappointed.


Spoiled!?! If it wasn't for the editor that increased replayability a hundredfold, the games popularity would be if not a hundredfold less, then a lot less. This is speculation of course, but I don't feel it unsafe to say that chances are there wouldn't be a H5 at all if there hadn't been such a strong tradition of map editors in previous games, as the populairty and potential profit of it would be to small to Ubi to bother with. And even more, there would be a lot less people lamenting the demise of the series as no editor would have produced a lot less fans.

So yes, fans are disappointed and most rightly so. But not because we are "spoiled", but because Ubi is coasting on the reputation of a series with fine tradition without following up on said tradition.
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Postby Kalah » Aug 2 2006, 21:28

Ethric wrote:If it wasn't for the editor that increased replayability a hundredfold, the games popularity would be if not a hundredfold less, then a lot less (...) Ubi is coasting on the reputation of a series with fine tradition without following up on said tradition.


Kalah wrote:Fact is, it has become a tradition to have good editors and thus increase replayability hundred fold in the Heroes series. So when something like this comes along, they are disappointed.


If you compare these two arguments, you will see that we are in fact speaking right past one another.

I say "spoiled" because this - the value of the editor to the series - is something very particular to the Heroes series. Sure, many games have an editor of sorts, but as both you and I agree, without the editor there would be no Heroes series to speak of. I cannot off-hand think of any single game or series in which the editor plays such a vital role. Thus, when it is found wanting (or as in this case, missing), fans are automatically disappointed. They have gone from thinking it's good that the game has an editor to expecting it as a matter of course.
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Postby Meandor » Aug 2 2006, 21:30

Yes we are spoiled. H<insert you number here> set high standarts so we all want something even better or at least as good as it was, ho can blame us?
And as Ethric said, without map editor HoMM fanbase would be smaller.
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Postby Ethric » Aug 2 2006, 21:35

Kalah wrote:They have gone from thinking it's good that the game has an editor to expecting it as a matter of course.


Yes, and rightfully so. That's my point, the fans are not spoiled, we expect an editor becuase it is a vital part of what has made the series what it is, and why it has such a solid fanbase. With such a strong tradition for an editor, releasing a Heroes game without an editor is a slap in the face to all fans.
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Postby Kalah » Aug 2 2006, 21:45

Yes, but how would Ubi - a producer who has not had anything to do with the series until now - know of this? We (the fans) have been running down the door with requests and demands, and when all this collides with how they want to make the game, what you get is a mass of chaos.

What happens is that the developers stake everything on developing the game. What happens is that they upon the release of the Beta find that they are far from ready, and they need to push the release to finish polishing the game. What happens is the down-prioritizing of everything but the game and its functionality (read: playability), including the editor.

Frankly, I don't think they realized the importance of the editor until after the release, at which point there was only one thing to do: take their time and make it a good one. It was already too late to ship it with the game anyway, so they might as well take some time and build a proper one. Of course, if it turns out to be shait when they do release it, my argument falls to pieces along with the game's replayability and the developer's credibility.
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Postby stijn » Aug 2 2006, 22:13

If it wasn't for the editor that increased replayability a hundredfold, the games popularity would be if not a hundredfold less, then a lot less.
only a very small % of all heroes players download maps. i think h3 sold about 500 000 copies (really just a guess), and i think only about 25 000 folks were downloading maps. so what you're saying isn't correct at all i'm afraid.

don't underestimate how many people just play the game and never visit any heroes sites. i think those people are at least 80% of the sold copies

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Postby Ethric » Aug 3 2006, 0:27

stijn wrote:
If it wasn't for the editor that increased replayability a hundredfold, the games popularity would be if not a hundredfold less, then a lot less.
only a very small % of all heroes players download maps. i think h3 sold about 500 000 copies (really just a guess), and i think only about 25 000 folks were downloading maps. so what you're saying isn't correct at all i'm afraid.


Well at least I didn't make up any numbers to go with my guesswork, I prefer to remain vague when I don't have any actual facts ;)

And the people online, here, that read and write about Heroes, and also I'd assume download maps once they have enough interest to seek out such sites as this on the net (RT alone having over 8000 members), are the ones who make a game seem popular, that makes up the dedicated community of fans. The thousands upon thousands that own one or more of the games and play them once in a while but do not have the interest to seek out others who play it to (except perhaps a friend or two) are quite invisible in everything except their purchase being registered as a sold game. These people does not constitute a fanbase, being "only" casual players. Their voices are not heard.

I stand by my assessment that the editor plays a vital role in having made the HoMM and it's fanbase what it is, and that any HoMM released without an editor suffers gravely.
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Postby Kalah » Aug 3 2006, 0:41

And I stand by my assessment that just as long as the editor is released and that it is fairly good, the fact that it was not released with the game will become infinitely insignificant immediately thereafter. The fans of the Heroes series are such diehards that they will recuperate almost immediately from any disappointment once the opportunity to contribute to making the game better arises. Just look at the manual. It was missing. People gladly went to work for it. Look at the result. Of course people will work their butts off to improve the scenario roster once they can. That is, provided they can. Fingers crossed that they don't screw this up and issue an editor that might as well never have been issued...
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Postby Ethric » Aug 3 2006, 0:45

I agree with that, but as of the day the game were release and up to right now, there is no editor. And whether the editor, once released, whenever that is, is any good, remains to be seen. It certainly isn't a given...

Thus a lot of negative tension caused by the insecurity.
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Postby Kalah » Aug 3 2006, 0:50

Yup. And though it's a bad comparison, I'm gonna throw out the fact that there was no Multiplayer released with Heroes 4 - and yet... it hobbled along. Point is, let's not grieve before it's all flat-lined, a'ight?
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Postby Ethric » Aug 3 2006, 0:57

Well the MP in H5 was there, but it was quite borked at release from what I understand.

But you're right, it is a bad comparison, because H4 came with an excellent editor, which I believe is the current object of debate ;)
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Postby DaemianLucifer » Aug 3 2006, 2:18

Kalah wrote:And although I agree with the complaint that a game should have a certain degree of replayability and - in this case - contain a decent roster of scenarios, I think that Heroes fans have gotten a wee bit spoiled.


Yes,spoiled brats!How dare they expect something amazing for measly $50?! :disagree:

Kalah wrote:What?? What are you talking about? And since when has the argument that piracy is stealing not been used in the piracy discussion?


Thats exactly what I was talking about.When someone says "Would you buy a half done car?" you say "But games are not a bloody SUV",yet when someone says "Would you steal a car",wheres that SUV comment then?

Kalah wrote:Yes, but how would Ubi - a producer who has not had anything to do with the series until now - know of this?


How about ask the fans on the forums?

stijn wrote:only a very small % of all heroes players download maps. i think h3 sold about 500 000 copies (really just a guess), and i think only about 25 000 folks were downloading maps. so what you're saying isn't correct at all i'm afraid.

don't underestimate how many people just play the game and never visit any heroes sites. i think those people are at least 80% of the sold copies


Ah,but you are forgetting that those people downloading maps can also share them with their friends,and that some people dont download maps,but make their own and play them with friends/familly.So Id say that editor is essential for at least 20%-30% of people,while its very usefull for another 20%-40%,which is a high enough number

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Postby Omega_Destroyer » Aug 3 2006, 3:05

I think the random map generator is what has spoiled a good deal of us. I know after using a random map generator I don't feel like playing regular scenarios as much.

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Postby mr.hackcrag » Aug 3 2006, 4:37

Kalah wrote:And although I agree with the complaint that a game should have a certain degree of replayability and - in this case - contain a decent roster of scenarios, I think that Heroes fans have gotten a wee bit spoiled.



Kalah, I think you used a poor choice of words when you mentioned "spoiled."

I don't see how anyone can feel spoiled considering that this is the second time in a row that a homm game has been released unfinished. If anything, I would feel cheated had I invested my money into a shabby product.

I don't consider myself spoiled. It's not too much to expect that what has always been my all time favorite game from as early as the 90's should deliver the goods now that it's 2006. Even after all this time, I still play H3 and even H2. But H5 doesn't deliver. It took one step forward, and then several steps back.

Why should I make myself content to play an average game? I shouldn't have to lower my expectations to fit the narrow limits of what H5 has become. I'd rather spend my free time playing something that's exceptional, rather than mediocre.

Do you know how many companies already make a business of designing average games? There are enough crap games out on the market as it is. The last thing I want is for my beloved homm to become comparable with those kinds of games.

Omega_Destroyer wrote:I think the random map generator is what has spoiled a good deal of us. I know after using a random map generator I don't feel like playing regular scenarios as much.


There's that "spoiled" word again. Not all the maps that the RMG made were good. I can't speak for H4, but H3 often had too much repetition in objects placed around the map and castles were very close to one another even on XL.

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Postby Jolly Joker » Aug 3 2006, 6:43

I think, all this posting of what Ubi SHOULD have or have not done, is rather missing the point. The question is, what Ubi COULD have done. There is obviously only one other option here than the option they actually choose: waiting with the release until, well, let's say August 31st. This is assuming, that it would have been possible at all, sonsidering the game is creating a revenue since End of May, 10 weeks, revenue that wouldn't have been there, but still Nival working and have to be paid.
Anyway, there obviously wasn't the option to release the editor with the game on May 21st.
Believe me, when I say, the editor existing at that point - the editor that made all the maps - , while a very powerful tool, would not have been satisfactory for a broader public. It is by no means lazyness or inability that makes finishing the existing maps not that easy a process. I think, this analogy describes things well: Imagine the editor would be something like an electronic gadget, for example a DVD recorder. What you expect, when you buy it, is a sleek case with some buttons and dials that come with a manual. What you definitely wouldn't want is an OPEN case with naked wires you have to have to manually pull out of their plugs and replug manually for every action - with the electricity switched on and without a manual.
I've read one of the current editor testers writing, the test of the current editor version has convinced him of the power of the editor, but at the same time a bit disappointed of the map makers. What he wanted to say, is that the current maps that are in the game, are by no means making use of everything the ditor is capable of - which again doesn't comes as a surprise considering the tool the initial map makers had to work with. :)
Anyway, there will be a decent editor manual. In fact, the manual is not the typical menu explanation type of manual. Instead you will be led through the process of actually making a map with examples, screenshots and so on which will be a great help for everyone in the mood to try their hands on making a map.
But back to the initial question. Let's take another analogy, since cars are so popular. Let's say, a car had no resale value whatsoever or if it had, the resale value was NOT dependant on age or mileage. And your car dealer is giving you a phone call and says, "Man, we got your car, right here on the yard. Problem, though. The gas tank is full, but there is currently no way to refuel. Once it's empty you can roll only through your home town. You can pick up the car now and drive it, and we'll come to you in a couple month and install the refueler. By the way, there are some other minor glitches we'll repair on the way. You may have trouble transporting other people sometimes because the seats may not unfold correctly, for example. Of course, we are sorry to say that you'll have to pay the full price if you come and get it now."
The way I see this I would immediately storm to the dealer and buy if
a) I'd want that car no matter what and buying it now would mean being able to drive it now
b) I'd trust my dealer and the car manufacturer to do as promised - which might depend on my experience with the dealer (Ubi) and the manufacturer (Nival) previously.
c) I don't mind working with incomplete things for a time being

I would certainly wait with the buy, if I could not say yes to all of the above points.

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Postby wimfrits » Aug 3 2006, 8:43

Jolly Joker wrote:The question is, what Ubi COULD have done.


So timeline is the fixed factor and quality is the variable one. I think it is a pity current industries adapt that strategy and see no reason why consumers should find that behavior excuseable.

But even then, if quality is indeed an issue, Ubi SHOULD have planned development better so that they COULD have released a better product.
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